What would be Horus and Luna Wolves opinion regarding

[Azorius]

the First Legion do you think? 

 

I'm also curious why the Luna Wolves hadn't participated three times of the Rangdan Xenoicdes at all. It is directly mentioned the Xenocides depleted the Dark Angels and Space Wolves and was crucial to ascendancy of the Luna Wolves and Ultramarines, too. Perhaps he deliberately refrained Legion to preserve his own force and attain prominence? We are now aware of Horus have deliberately and frequently sacrificed his supposed allies to further his goal and minimize his loss. To Horus, loyalty is not reward in itself, unlike the Lion, Russ, Dorn or Sanguinius. 

 

On the other hand, Rangdan campaign would bring him ample glory at expense of other Legions as a myriad of campaigns have contributed, and avoidance of participation could tarnish his own reputation and integrity, or even seen as shirking from duty, especially such apocalyptic, empire-ending war as Xenocides, when the Imperium was on its last legs and the Emperor himself forced to open Noctis Labyrinth. 

 

Overall, I wish to be enlightened of nature of the campaign persecuted in the Galactic West occupied the Luna Wolves when the Imperium was at its precipice. 

 

 

[Vykes]

Well, I do seem to recall Horus's opinion of Lion El Johnson as a fellow primarch not always being the best.  I seem to recall him saying that he felt the Lion's eyes on him at Ullanor, while others were reluctant to his position or irritated, Johnson felt personally aggrieved like he should have been warmaster*.  That and likewise the First legion was seen as arrogant for being the first, thus they should always have the primacy among the Legions that seemed to be bred of the notion of first legion being naturally the most honoured. 

 

Beyond that, Horus and the Luna Wolves were still operating alongside a significantly diminished 3rd legion at the time, were they not?    Tossing the 16th into the fire might well mean sacrificing an unprepared 3rd legion in as well.  If the First wanted their time in the sun along with Russ to prove how doggedly brainlessly loyal they were for a few headpats from the Emperor, it feels just as likely that they would have thrown themselves into that position in order to achieve glory rather than let a Horus led compliance go forward.  The Rangdan campaigns are interesting in what little we know of them.  Primarchs are typically self serving (not always, but in general) as they aspire to obtain glory and prestige for themselves and their legions.  Especially in that run up to Ullanor.  It has nothing to do with some notion of loyalty, it may have been positioning, prior commitments, and just the notion that Rangden was probably a grinding fight with little to gain by heedlessly throwing good legionnaires after bad bug-hunts.

 

It's not a matter of loyalty, or civility, or any notion that Horus was somehow bad and the Lion, Dorn, or Sanguinius were somehow better at the time... Horus was a warrior and a diplomat.  If he could affect compliances elsewhere and expand the great crusade while Russ, Johnson, and ++REDACTED++ shot off to smash their heads into a brick wall for little gain, what sense is there in traipsing halfway across the galaxy to try a flying leap into the same wall?  

 

*Can't recall if it was in Vengeful Spirit, Warmaster, or maybe Slaves to Darkness.  Certainly Decent of Angels says Johnson was angling for the position. 

[Azorius]

If you have read the First and Inferno, then you surely know the Lion and Russ do not care glory or anything. The Ullanor and Warmaster thing is the point - the Lion provided opportunity to cement his position as future Warmaster, and rejected it with his own volition. It should be also noted that the two Legions are directly tasked by the Emperor to prosecute bio-pogrom, since He trusted them above all. 

 

It occurs to my mind - the seed of doubt was sown during Rangdan, Horus had already been jealous at Russ, as described in Wolfsbane, and the trust shown by Emperor would only fan his suspicion. 

[Marshal Rohr]

The Lion might not have been in command during the Xenocides, also in book 6 didnt it mention the reason the dark angels took the shovel to the face is because they were closest and it happened very quickly?

 

 

Edit: Also it is important to remember Horus didn't turn away from the Emperor because he was jealous or mad, he was watching all his work and sacrifice go to waste. They didn't convey this very well, but bureaucratic mismanagement of the Imperial frontier caused a crisis of faith for him. 

[Azorius]

The Lion might not have been in command during the Xenocides, also in book 6 didnt it mention the reason the dark angels took the shovel to the face is because they were closest and it happened very quickly?

 

 

Edit: Also it is important to remember Horus didn't turn away from the Emperor because he was jealous or mad, he was watching all his work and sacrifice go to waste. They didn't convey this very well, but bureaucratic mismanagement of the Imperial frontier caused a crisis of faith for him. 

 

The Lion was explicitly in command during the Xenocides, and IIRC book 6 didn't mention or illustrate anything regarding the Xenocides. 

[Vykes]

If you have read the First and Inferno, then you surely know the Lion and Russ do not care glory or anything. The Ullanor and Warmaster thing is the point - the Lion provided opportunity to cement his position as future Warmaster, and rejected it with his own volition. It should be also noted that the two Legions are directly tasked by the Emperor to prosecute bio-pogrom, since He trusted them above all. 

 

It occurs to my mind - the seed of doubt was sown during Rangdan, Horus had already been jealous at Russ, as described in Wolfsbane, and the trust shown by Emperor would only fan his suspicion. 

 

Hah, thou presumeth much.  Surely the son of the Lion.  For if you'd read Decent of Angels, or Angels of Caliban, thou wouldst know that thy heralded Liont gave great gifts of ordnance to the master of the IVth in exchange for favours to become warmaster, before he perfidy of the noble Lupercal came to light at Istvaan V.  

 

You ask a question, get an answer, don't like it, 'tis all cool.  If the Lion was in command it was his mess to sort out.  We know next to nothing about the Xenocides beyond the Vault of Night and the Emperor's unshackling of what was within to end the first.  Then the two next over, what, three decades?  I have read it.  I enjoyed the humiliation of the vaunted first.  All care for glory, all who say they do not, are liars and braggarts.  It is what the Primarchs are: avaricious, ambitious, and imperfect.  

[Azorius]

 

If you have read the First and Inferno, then you surely know the Lion and Russ do not care glory or anything. The Ullanor and Warmaster thing is the point - the Lion provided opportunity to cement his position as future Warmaster, and rejected it with his own volition. It should be also noted that the two Legions are directly tasked by the Emperor to prosecute bio-pogrom, since He trusted them above all. 

 

It occurs to my mind - the seed of doubt was sown during Rangdan, Horus had already been jealous at Russ, as described in Wolfsbane, and the trust shown by Emperor would only fan his suspicion. 

 

Hah, thou presumeth much.  Surely the son of the Lion.  For if you'd read Decent of Angels, or Angels of Caliban, thou wouldst know that thy heralded Liont gave great gifts of ordnance to the master of the IVth in exchange for favours to become warmaster, before he perfidy of the noble Lupercal came to light at Istvaan V.  

 

You ask a question, get an answer, don't like it, 'tis all cool.  If the Lion was in command it was his mess to sort out.  We know next to nothing about the Xenocides beyond the Vault of Night and the Emperor's unshackling of what was within to end the first.  Then the two next over, what, three decades?  I have read it.  I enjoyed the humiliation of the vaunted first.  All care for glory, all who say they do not, are liars and braggarts.  It is what the Primarchs are: avaricious, ambitious, and imperfect.  

 

 

No, it is not an answer - a lie, damnable lie of a monster, traitor and fool. I will burn and expunge such profound accusations from memory of the galaxy. 

 

More seriously, it seems character of the Lion has taken a different turn after authors of different caliber took the helm of the First; I consider portrayal of Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels is an undetermined bumbling of unqualified writers, but they are still technically 'canon', thus... *sigh* 

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

The Lion might not have been in command during the Xenocides, also in book 6 didnt it mention the reason the dark angels took the shovel to the face is because they were closest and it happened very quickly?

 

 

Edit: Also it is important to remember Horus didn't turn away from the Emperor because he was jealous or mad, he was watching all his work and sacrifice go to waste. They didn't convey this very well, but bureaucratic mismanagement of the Imperial frontier caused a crisis of faith for him.

The Lion was explicitly in command during the Xenocides, and IIRC book 6 didn't mention or illustrate anything regarding the Xenocides.

The section about Xana talks about the xenocides a little bit, iirc. Also, since there were three xenocides the lion might’ve commanded the last one but I’m waiting for Angelus for more information. I don’t have any skin in the game at the moment, I just don’t see Horus or the Lion in the same way you’re describing them.

[Vykes]

 

 

REEEEEEEEEE.... 

 

No, it is not an answer - a lie, damnable lie of a monster, traitor and fool. I will burn and expunge such profound accusations from memory of the galaxy. 

 

More seriously, it seems character of the Lion has taken a different turn after authors of different caliber took the helm of the First; I consider portrayal of Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels is an undetermined bumbling of unqualified writers, but they are still technically 'canon', thus... *sigh* 

 

 

If thou couldst remove those books from time and space, the galaxy wouldst thank thee, verily (Seriously, it took me maybe 4 tries to get through Descent of Angels and broke my BL HH stint for a year on its own).  I'd say the part of the Lion and Petulant Pert in particular have been incredibly inconsistent as far as the BL stuff is concerned.   I always liked Horus's portrayal: little instances like preserving the honour and integrity of an opponent's family during the Heresy, allowing consultations with xenos, and thinking a little more progressively than just toeing the Imperial line, only to be jaded by the machinations of the bureaucracy and petty aristocracy that had to stay in place to allow for their expansion... well, that gets me on board.  

 

Getting a good reading from them is tough, and the Black Books have their own inclinations due to the unreliable narrator issue we come across with historical texts.  Getting a true sense of personal character is difficult from historical records (to which the FW BB aspire), so we tend to have secondary source material and addendums written as analysis from the perspective of a supposed expert writing in hindsight.  That makes it great for historiography, but the closer it is to the period in question the more intrinsically emotionally biased it may be by outcome.  There is no absolute truth in text, it is merely an observed contemporary perspective that grants insight into the time in which the source is written: tis the closet secret of history. 

 

I think Marshal Rohr is right, but why did I recall the Lion being in command of the first with Russ being called in on the third as 'clean up' given the specific 'unspecified' nature of what made the Ragden threat so hard to root out from the populace?  That's always gonna be a dogged issue until someone lets the cat out of the bag: what EXACTLY happened and why?  

[shandwen]

To me it appears that the Lion had had aspirations of becoming the warmaster (and once horus rebelled the second warmaster) but had a moment of realization that that wasn't his future while working with Sanguinius and Roboute. The name of the game in a long series is character development, not a stagnant stale personality. The Lion shows a shift, but yet the same flaw: his inability to understand people's own motivations.

[rendingon1+]

Can we stop this: Lion does not understand people? It has it's origins in two (mentioned above) terrible books and rather stupid fan theories (this + Lion really is a beast bull ). It really has no logical sense in any way. Besides, reading Angels of Caliban I would argue that Lion is more perceptive and better judge of character than Guilliman or Sanguinius.

 

 

As for Rangdan we basically know nothing except:

1) DA and SW were there and did the heavy lifting (and taking hard knocks in return)

2)Lion was in command of one of the purged

3) Extreme loses put an end to 1st Legion supremacy

 

One last thing, it's not that Primarchs just fought campaigns they chose for themselves, orders where they were needed were sent from Emperor, Malcador, Council of Terra and later Horus. Apparently 1st and VIth were either particulary suited to fight Rangda, were the closest Legions to respond or something else.

[Indefragable]

In the preview for book 9 at this last HH Weekender (Feb 2019), the writers said that we would never get much detail on what exactly the Rangdan xenocides were. The idea of something so horrific even battle hardened Astartes are loathe to discuss is too intriguing and juicy to pass up (for the writing team).

 

On a personal note, I find it hard to get much worse than the Hrud in the Perturabo Primarchs novel.

[rendingon1+]

So something more horrific than even demons, betrayal, wholesale slaughter and total war that is Horus' rebelion?

I think they are just extremely lazy and no longer have good idea since Alan passed away. MAlevolence is a proof.

BTW we had a glimpse on Rangdan Xenos (description) in 1st Legion by Wraight in some anthology.

[Vykes]

Can we stop this: Lion does not understand people? It has it's origins in two (mentioned above) terrible books and rather stupid fan theories (this + Lion really is a beast bull ). It really has no logical sense in any way. Besides, reading Angels of Caliban I would argue that Lion is more perceptive and better judge of character than Guilliman or Sanguinius.

 

I don't entirely disagree but it's kiiiiiinda his strongest character trait that's been going forward for a while.  So, it's hard to ignore as it leaves him with about as much characterization as white out. If he's some lapdog "for Loyalty" then he's a less interesting Russ.  If he's a stoic warrior savant among savants, he's a less interesting Dorn.  Frankly I always liked the "Doesn't understand people as well as others" because it's at least novel among primarchs. 

 

The way BL presented it, the Lion isn't a good people person even if you take out the 'doesn't related to people' line: he makes decisions he knows will get him in trouble with his brothers and self-justifies it because he has select support from his legion or can claim he was 'technically' right.  He has his doubts and dismisses them saying, "They know what I mean."  

 

While I'm sick and tired of the 'Johnson is a traitor' meme, I like the notion that he's devoted to the cause but not exactly the premier Primarch of non military situations.  It makes the First legion and their primarch a very militant group: the original knights, not some diplomatic order but the militarist mindset that every challenge is solved through a sledgehammer force or supreme proof of power.  It's a very different concept compared to Gulliman and Horus, or even the methodologies of Lorgar and Bat Boy's lads. 

[bluntblade]

The Luna Wolves weren't exactly picking easy jobs. When you consider the role of the Legions within the Expeditionary Fleets of the Imperium, all of them were intended for the most severe warzones the Galaxy had to offer.

 

Retribution tells of Horus being occupied in wars elsewhere, just like none of the other non-participant Legions are called upon to justify why they weren't in on the Xenocides. From that I'd infer that the XVIth respect the Ist - I don't recall the Dark Angels showing resentment or the kind of grandstanding that officers in some other Legions display (Delvarus, Eidolon, Grulgor).

[rendingon1+]

I'm not arguing Lion is misunderstood, or he's the "best" loylist primarch overal. Far from it.

- He's kind of arrogant and high handed. Though I despise flea ridden barbarians of the VIth, the way Lion insults Russ anytime they talk in Leman Russ primarch novel... makes me sorry for Leman (even if what Lion says is 100% right and Russ deserves it lol).

 

- He overthinks stuff and is very often found brooding and absent to the point that even his lieutnants are literally sick of it. And of course he doesn't share his thoughts afterwards.

 

- He's definitely not a team player because it requires accomodating different opinions and Lion of course knows best. He also likes to keep his secrets (wasn't it Alpharius that said he can't "read" the Lion?) even when it would be better to share some information with others.

- He appears to be stubborn to the point of obsession when set on a chosen course of action. Like hunting Curze throughout the entire 500 worlds without any exisiting trail (only some psychic hints) or insisting on laying waste to Traitor held worlds when other more effective options were avilable.

 

While I'm sick and tired of the 'Johnson is a traitor' meme, I like the notion that he's devoted to the cause but not exactly the premier Primarch of non military situations.  It makes the First legion and their primarch a very militant group: the original knights, not some diplomatic order but the militarist mindset that every challenge is solved through a sledgehammer force or supreme proof of power.  It's a very different concept compared to Gulliman and Horus, or even the methodologies of Lorgar and Bat Boy's lads.

 

Fully agree. I think that being de facto King of Caliban who's also a grand master of knightly order AND a primarch of the First Legion makes you rather... reluctant to explain and making compromises. You're just used to being OBEYED. I hope Book 9 will emphasize why 1st Legion was seen as prestigious and important instead of just being Legio with a number 1.

[Elzender]

I am also curious to see/read about how and why the 1st was the most preeminent legion during the Unification and the early Crusade. If I had to make a guess, I could see them having a role similar to what the Luna Wolves did with the Emperor's Children in its inception, guiding and training the other nascent legions in the roles that they mastered during their first engagements.

One thing I would really appreciate would be a more detailed chronology of the Unification Wars and the start of the Great Crusade, because there are a few things that personally confuse me a bit. For example, the overlapping of the Thunder Warriors and the Legions, and how the 1st rose to its honored position when plenty of other legions were already operating in Terra, and the Luna Wolves already gained their name conquering the moon, which I recall seeing it mentioned as the first action of the Great Crusade.

[Marshal Rohr]

Leaving the xenocides a mystery while still giving a sense of their impact is the best route. That means not the explemplary battle section, but a nice juicy section in the front half of the lore article before organization.

 

As for their importance, Urlakk Urgs empire was the greatest threat to the Imperium after the xenocides ended, so Horus taking command and defeating Urg is every bit as important as purging the Rangda.

[Azorius]

 

The section about Xana talks about the xenocides a little bit, iirc. Also, since there were three xenocides the lion might’ve commanded the last one but I’m waiting for Angelus for more information. I don’t have any skin in the game at the moment, I just don’t see Horus or the Lion in the same way you’re describing them.

Ah, Xana. I understand. Don't you think the First illustrate the Lion had overall command during the Third Xenocide? 

 

But is it really so? Rangdan is the first and last existential conflict of the Imperium during the Crusade, whilst Ullanor was, as the Emperor himself clearly stated, a glory parade arranged for Primarchs. It should be also noted that according to some sources, time of Rangdan was darker and more horrible than the Heresy (IIRC, including Guilliman himself - It could be just a metaphor, but still it conveys significance of the event). 

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

I'm also curious why the Luna Wolves hadn't participated three times of the Rangdan Xenoicdes at all. It is directly mentioned the Xenocides depleted the Dark Angels and Space Wolves and was crucial to ascendancy of the Luna Wolves and Ultramarines, too. Perhaps he deliberately refrained Legion to preserve his own force and attain prominence? We are now aware of Horus have deliberately and frequently sacrificed his supposed allies to further his goal and minimize his loss. To Horus, loyalty is not reward in itself, unlike the Lion, Russ, Dorn or Sanguinius. 

 

Source for this? The only potentially genuine instance (as I'm not sure whether it took place before or after Horus secretly turning to Chaos) I'm aware of off the top of my head is Gate 42 and the RG, and that was more of a 'no Corax, we're doing this my way' type deal (especially as Horus would be naturally looking to confirm his newly bestowed authority over his brothers). The vast majority of Horus doing stuff like that comes from just before the Heresy, when he was trying to stack the deck for his rebellion, and so isn't representative of GC era, loyal Horus.

 

Remember, pre Davin Horus may have had a bit of an ego (though False Gods would also suggest otherwise, showing a quite humble, doubting Horus before he turned) but he was also the best of the Primarchs, that's why he was made Warmaster. His record was beyond question (as seen by Dorn nearly killing Garro for bringing him news of Istvaan). If he was some manipulative credit stealer, that wouldn't have been the case.

 

As for the Xenocides specifically. Couple of things to bear in mind. As bad as they must have been, they wouldn't have been the only front the Imperium was fighting on, so there'd be need for the Legions elsewhere too (plus the possibility of some just being too far away so that a recall wasn't practical, win or loss the Rangda fight would be over before Legion XYZ arrived). The XVI wasn't the only Legion that didn't fight the Rangda (spelling?), yet they're the only one that gets suspicion thrown at them for it. Something else to bear in mind. How would Horus deliberately withhold the XVI from the Xenocides? He wasn't Warmaster then, and while as a (particularly trusted) Primarch he enjoyed great independence of operation, he didn't have the final say. The Emperor did. If Empy had thought it was both necessary and feasible to deploy Horus and the Luna Wolves against the Rangda, he surely would have done.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

The section about Xana talks about the xenocides a little bit, iirc. Also, since there were three xenocides the lion might’ve commanded the last one but I’m waiting for Angelus for more information. I don’t have any skin in the game at the moment, I just don’t see Horus or the Lion in the same way you’re describing them.

Ah, Xana. I understand. Don't you think the First illustrate the Lion had overall command during the Third Xenocide?

 

But is it really so? Rangdan is the first and last existential conflict of the Imperium during the Crusade, whilst Ullanor was, as the Emperor himself clearly stated, a glory parade arranged for Primarchs. It should be also noted that according to some sources, time of Rangdan was darker and more horrible than the Heresy (IIRC, including Guilliman himself - It could be just a metaphor, but still it conveys significance of the event).

Ullanor was not a glory parade. Urg controlled a massive empire in the Golgothan Wastes the Imperium was unable to penetrate for 200 years. It was noted in several sources that this was the heart of the greenskin threat to the Imperium. I don’t know what the First is, so I can’t really comment on that. The Orks at Ullanor we’re the advanced orks, the kind that have standardized technology and a level of ability and culture than comes from billions/trillions of orks living in the same concentrated space. The Imperium had to chip away at them for decades to break up the combined consciousness that makes orks threatening in large enough number before they could attack Ullanor itself. If you are citing Black Library stories, I am unfamiliar with them, but they do not negate Ullanor being the last threat to the Imperium and extinguishing it ensured a human galaxy. Remember all of the Justaerin except Falkus died trying to take the Ork Emperor’s throneroom. Hundreds of the best equipped and most experienced veterans in the Primus Inter Pares of Legions led by the longest serving and most successful Primarch were barely able to kill Urg.

[Sandlemad]

I mean the triumph wound up as a glory parade - a bunch of the primarchs in attendance had no involvement in the Ullanor crusade - but an earned one. Horus Rising makes it clear that it was a brutal grinding war in the eyes of the Sons of Horus and that they were on some level glad to return to a conflict decided by something more than 

 

Ullanor and the empire of Urlakk Urg does seem to be talked about as a significant existential threat to the nascent Imperium. Maybe not an aggressive one in the same way as the Rangdan but it was the last big power in the galaxy that could could rival the Imperium and I get the impression that when folks talk about the most brutal wars prior to the heresy, it's both Ullanor and the xenocides that they're talking about.

It was the last of the colossal multi-legion conflicts that were increasingly rare as the crusade wore on. It's after Ullanor that you get this persistent theme in the (early heresy) BL novels and the FW books of 'what now for the legions?'

[Azorius]

IIRC, in Master of Mankind the Emperor stated entire purpose of Ullanor and subsequent Triumph was to sate desire for glory of Primarchs. And it seems empire of Urg never managed to inflict same calamity to the Imperium as Rangda did, nor the conflict was nightmarish like Xenocides, as many sources attest. 

[bluntblade]

The Imperium was exponentially stronger at that stage. And the Triumph alone was the glory the Emperor had meant to give His sons, not the campaign.

[Marshal Rohr]

IIRC, in Master of Mankind the Emperor stated entire purpose of Ullanor and subsequent Triumph was to sate desire for glory of Primarchs. And it seems empire of Urg never managed to inflict same calamity to the Imperium as Rangda did, nor the conflict was nightmarish like Xenocides, as many sources attest.

That simply doesn’t mesh with what other sources have explained about Ullanor. The Xenocides were nightmarish because of the foe, but being nightmarish doesn’t mean Ullanor was not a threat to the Imperium’s hegemony just because fighting orks is old hat for the legions by that point.