What would be Horus and Luna Wolves opinion regarding

[Vykes]

 

Nor do I think that Lion would ever be a good Warmaster - I'm not arguing this fact. As an Emperor's proxy you have to be not only great general but also a figurehead, which Lion would not be capable of (but at least he looked good and had a style lol), I think we agree on this. Just pointing out that his "flaws" or whatever, are not really that crippling as people think or want to think. In my opinion. Russ fragment:

 

'The Lion,' said Jorin, musingly. 'You've fought with him before?'

'I've barely swapped two words with him, and they were enough.'

'They say he will have more worlds under his heel than any other, one day.'

'Probably, him or Guilliman. He's a good tactician. Cold-blooded, stiff-necked, arrogant. It's why he does so well on Terra. Blood of the gods, Jorin, I will not be beaten by him.'

AND

 

This primarch, more so than perhaps any other, radiated a dark, sombre majesty, the calm presence of one born to rule and comfortable in the role. In another age he might have been an emperor in his own right, the undisputed ruler of a thousand worlds. Even in this Imperium he was the commander of the oldest and proudest of Legions, a regent to the one who had created them all, though the kingly aspect had not been diminished by time, remaining one of suzerainty, of domination, of command.

Dunno dude, saying you're doing really well in a Terran court of petty beurocrats, autocrats, and boisterous foppish pseudo aristocrats is kinda like saying "He's Charles Mansons favourite mailman."  Damned by the source more than almost anything else.

 

Beyond that, quote number two, is kinda... like, almost every single time a Primarch has ever been described.  "This primarch, more so than perhaps any other, <initiate Adverb autoscryer>, the presence born to rule.  In another age he may have been a <King/Emperor> in his own right, undisputed ruler over <insert sector variance score here> Even in this <Imperium/dark time/age>, he was commander to the <insert legion variance specialty here> Legion, a regent to one who had created them all, though the kingly aspect had not been diminished by time, remaining one of suzerainty, of domination of command." 

 

It always reads like that until you get to Angron, then the whole 'We can't verb well' catches up and he's just, really... really terse and unhappy.  

 

The lion's not some complete catastrophe, but I think it is fair to say compared to a lot of the other primarchs he has some very real deficiencies.  I don't even doubt that he'd have likely had the most conquests, he's a warrior sort.  If he wants to play the numbers game, he's dogged enough and determined enough to probably do it.  The quality of what they leave behind... well, that's another question I don't think can be answered (Compliance numbers versus what legacy is left behind.  Gulliman and Lorgar often seeded some very promising places, at least until the later's little issue on Monarchia.)

 

Just to be clear: I don't really care that much, but sources are sources: The Russ primarch book says the Lion is big and impressive and awesome (which makes sense, he's usually Russ's narrative foil, and being foil to the other version that's portrayed is kinda not in anyone's best interest).  The Angels series of books say he's, lets say, unique.  "But I don't like that terrible terrible book." doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  And we can't do bookburnings anymore.  Too many audiobooks and e-books, not enough fire, too Lorgar-esque.

 

Wait a minute, how did we get back on topic of what we think of the Lion, again!?!  OP is talking about the great and mighty Horus Lupercal and his thoughts!  While I don't pretend to know the mind of the warmster, lets hear about more quotes from the Warmaster and the great 16th legion!  We wouldn't want to think this was a bait thread or a Lion-fan support group, would we? 

[rendingon1+]

Ok, last reply. I promise!

 

Dunno dude, saying you're doing really well in a Terran court of petty beurocrats, autocrats, and boisterous foppish pseudo aristocrats is kinda like saying "He's Charles Mansons favourite mailman."  Damned by the source more than almost anything else.

 

Beyond that, quote number two, is kinda... like, almost every single time a Primarch has ever been described.  "This primarch, more so than perhaps any other, <initiate Adverb autoscryer>, the presence born to rule.  In another age he may have been a <King/Emperor> in his own right, undisputed ruler over <insert sector variance score here> Even in this <Imperium/dark time/age>, he was commander to the <insert legion variance specialty here> Legion, a regent to one who had created them all, though the kingly aspect had not been diminished by time, remaining one of suzerainty, of domination of command." 

 

It always reads like that until you get to Angron, then the whole 'We can't verb well' catches up and he's just, really... really terse and unhappy.  

 

The lion's not some complete catastrophe, but I think it is fair to say compared to a lot of the other primarchs he has some very real deficiencies.  I don't even doubt that he'd have likely had the most conquests, he's a warrior sort.  If he wants to play the numbers game, he's dogged enough and determined enough to probably do it.  The quality of what they leave behind... well, that's another question I don't think can be answered (Compliance numbers versus what legacy is left behind.  Gulliman and Lorgar often seeded some very promising places, at least until the later's little issue on Monarchia.)

 

Just to be clear: I don't really care that much, but sources are sources: The Russ primarch book says the Lion is big and impressive and awesome (which makes sense, he's usually Russ's narrative foil, and being foil to the other version that's portrayed is kinda not in anyone's best interest).  The Angels series of books say he's, lets say, unique.  "But I don't like that terrible terrible book." doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  And we can't do bookburnings anymore.  Too many audiobooks and e-books, not enough fire, too Lorgar-esque.

 

But it's the "petty beurocrats, autocrats, and boisterous foppish pseudo aristocrats" (and Malcadors) who dictate fate of Imperium, remember?

What was that Horus' Rebelion about? "Power to the astrtes?", "To hell with Terran Court"? ;) You know wht I mean.

 

As for the latter...well, in this case we can cut every primarch's description because it is so alike, however I can't recall any other primarch described in words Wraight used to tell us about Lion. Now,"quality" of compliance is not a thing really: compliance in astartes language means submission by surrendering or by force. In books concerning primarchs I (re)read recently (that would be: primarchs: Fulgrim, Corax) there are mentions of Luna Wolves conquest style which is: charred corpses and ruins (my words), but Warmaster Horus became nevertheless. Not saying it's bad of course, it's a proper astartes way, not some time wasting, months lasting "diplomacy".

I also understand that pretending that some sources do not exist is not the way, but pointing out inconsistencies and logical errors is the only way for a fan to feel better And for the last time: I'm not arguing in Azorius favour, I just think Lion get's too much undeserved flak. 

 

Now, returning to the thread: I don't know what was the problem. Can someone please remind me so I can write non offtopic response? I'm afraid that while scrolling back to the beginnig I might find something I didn't reply to but which I'd definitely disagree with, so...

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Now, returning to the thread: I don't know what was the problem. Can someone please remind me so I can write non offtopic response? I'm afraid that while scrolling back to the beginnig I might find something I didn't reply to but which I'd definitely disagree with, so...

 

Our bit of a tangent started when I responded to OP mentioning "There is also another scene where Guilliman talks to The Lion about Horus, and how Horus relished the validation of being placed above The Lion. Being above Dorn, Guilliman, Sanguinius and the rest meant nothing, but being above The Lion meant something." To which I responded that that isn't brilliant evidence for what Horus thought, because Gulliman (obviously) is not Horus. Whereas when he hear from Horus and/or the XVI, they have competitively little to say about the Lion and DAs, and Sangy is the brother Horus speaks in most glowing 'should have been him' type terms.

[rendingon1+]

I totally can't recall this quote: is it Imperium Secundus? (sounds like it).

[Arkangilos]

 

The Sangy example is valid with 2 caveats/mitigations, he didn't kill Amit and the nature of the confrontation, Amit basically accused Sangy's closest brother of the worst crime imaginable. He however doesn't have previous form of treating his men badly, and a more positive, charismatic reputation that still puts him solidly in the 'more personable' end of the Primarchs personalities.

 

 

 

He "chose" to kill in the heat of the moment and regreted it afterwards (od course he didn't share his grief with anyone later on). It was an impulse, and while I don't deny it was rather bad PR decision I can understand it (in fact I can't because Thorpe is a bad writer), but I elaborated on circumstances he killed Nemiel. Please read my post again.

Whereas Jonson doesn't. Jonson also clearly chose to kill, rather than just slap down, Nemiel (and we know Jonson was fully capable of quickly and non-fatally incapacitating Marines, as seen by the confrontation with the SW Watch Pack).

Comparing killing Nemiel and mock ritual duel with wulfs is not fair, it's like comparing target practice at the shooting range and firing in actual combat. Ie. Performing same action in stressful situation may yield different results.

Whichever way you spin it, murdering a senior officer for objecting to a legally dubious order is hardly a triumph of the Lion's command ability and highlights the inflexible 'my way or nothing' nature of his character that made him unsuited to the Warmaster role.

Now, I don't want to assume you're biased or something, but calling it "legally dubious order" is laughable. Psychic force was the only proven weapon that could prevent destruction of the Legion forces, not: hey, Asmodeus show us this trick with fireballs, nah, don't worry about the edict.

In the time of crysis EVERY primarch (except vulkan who was missing and Ferrus who was dead) lifted Nikaea ban.

Sanguinius - Signus, check.

Roboute - Calth, check.

Dorn - didn't even disband his Librarius just locked them up for later.

Corax - actively using librariansafter Istvaan

Russ - "totally non psykers rune priests"

Khan - didn't give a about Nikaea at all

So, whichever way you spin it - nope, Lion killing Nemiel can be justified, but MAYBY it was not the best decision.

 

Also: Point can be made how extremely loyal some Dark Angels were to the Emperor - loyalty above Legion (and reason)

No, Jonson gets pointed out because of the company he's being put with, the charismatic, political types (Sangy, Horus, Gulliman). While Perty is a particularly bad one (hell, some of the that's been added to his story is possibly the second worst fluff in the Heresy), none of those 3 Primarchs (assuming Manus and Corax are accurate, I'm unaware of either attacking their men in a fit of pique) were particularly political creatures or 'potential Warmasters' (while Ferrus might have been considered, he was passed by for similar reasons as Jonson).

So Johnson character is just judged by "compared to X"? Taking most civilised/human/charismatic primarchs and comparing them to a dude who's literally entire life is either fightinig for survival in demon hunted forests, followed by disciplined life in a militant Order. He had none of Guillimans political tutelage, nor his adopted, loving "parents" who also happened to be good people, neither did he was a champion of the people like Sanguinius, who also shared hardships with his Tribe on daily basis. Johnson grew up in the forest, then was taken by soldier-knights, who's only duty was fighting beasts and other knights while living strict, organised, isolated and disciplined life in the fortresses of the Order. He probably had very little interaction with Calibanites or almost none at all, and didn't live with "his people" like Sanguinius or RG. Besides what's very important Lion was kind of reliant on Luther, his only friend-brother-father. Luther was extremely charismatic, hell, he was even respected by Astartes from other legions even though he was just a normal (augmented) human. It was Luther who always did the talking and it was Luther who refined Lion's plans and ideas to presnet them to others. Luther was a velvet glove - without Luther only iron fist remained. Nevertheless Lion could stand for himself and evidently was respected by his brothers as a leader, but respect was all he got. I don't think he was liked, nor was he invited for joined campaign birthday parties. At least unlike some other primarchs he was ok with that.

My point: It's unfair to judge Lion compared to pinnacle of Socially Perfect Primarchs when clearly he was not of the sort.

Did you lose a bit of post there? While you're right about Lexicanum in general, I did mention which books it cites as the source for the claims I quoted, but I don't have access to them to check myself.

 

Yup, and there was much more.eh. There was a qoute from Leman Russ about Lion and politics, will provide it later.

 

Once again: I don't try to make Lion look like a saint, he was a bastard (like most of them), but he was not a stupid, socially awkward monster either.

So the example of heat of the moment, the Lion actually had a better situation and less stressful one than Sanguinius. Sanguinius’ flagship literally wrecked into a daemon world, his guys were being slaughtered, he had a vision of his death, and there was no way off the planet yet.

 

And he still didn’t kill his guy :p

[Azorius]

 

 

The Sangy example is valid with 2 caveats/mitigations, he didn't kill Amit and the nature of the confrontation, Amit basically accused Sangy's closest brother of the worst crime imaginable. He however doesn't have previous form of treating his men badly, and a more positive, charismatic reputation that still puts him solidly in the 'more personable' end of the Primarchs personalities.

 

 

 

He "chose" to kill in the heat of the moment and regreted it afterwards (od course he didn't share his grief with anyone later on). It was an impulse, and while I don't deny it was rather bad PR decision I can understand it (in fact I can't because Thorpe is a bad writer), but I elaborated on circumstances he killed Nemiel. Please read my post again.

Whereas Jonson doesn't. Jonson also clearly chose to kill, rather than just slap down, Nemiel (and we know Jonson was fully capable of quickly and non-fatally incapacitating Marines, as seen by the confrontation with the SW Watch Pack).

Comparing killing Nemiel and mock ritual duel with wulfs is not fair, it's like comparing target practice at the shooting range and firing in actual combat. Ie. Performing same action in stressful situation may yield different results.

Whichever way you spin it, murdering a senior officer for objecting to a legally dubious order is hardly a triumph of the Lion's command ability and highlights the inflexible 'my way or nothing' nature of his character that made him unsuited to the Warmaster role.

Now, I don't want to assume you're biased or something, but calling it "legally dubious order" is laughable. Psychic force was the only proven weapon that could prevent destruction of the Legion forces, not: hey, Asmodeus show us this trick with fireballs, nah, don't worry about the edict.

In the time of crysis EVERY primarch (except vulkan who was missing and Ferrus who was dead) lifted Nikaea ban.

Sanguinius - Signus, check.

Roboute - Calth, check.

Dorn - didn't even disband his Librarius just locked them up for later.

Corax - actively using librariansafter Istvaan

Russ - "totally non psykers rune priests"

Khan - didn't give a about Nikaea at all

So, whichever way you spin it - nope, Lion killing Nemiel can be justified, but MAYBY it was not the best decision.

 

Also: Point can be made how extremely loyal some Dark Angels were to the Emperor - loyalty above Legion (and reason)

No, Jonson gets pointed out because of the company he's being put with, the charismatic, political types (Sangy, Horus, Gulliman). While Perty is a particularly bad one (hell, some of the that's been added to his story is possibly the second worst fluff in the Heresy), none of those 3 Primarchs (assuming Manus and Corax are accurate, I'm unaware of either attacking their men in a fit of pique) were particularly political creatures or 'potential Warmasters' (while Ferrus might have been considered, he was passed by for similar reasons as Jonson).

So Johnson character is just judged by "compared to X"? Taking most civilised/human/charismatic primarchs and comparing them to a dude who's literally entire life is either fightinig for survival in demon hunted forests, followed by disciplined life in a militant Order. He had none of Guillimans political tutelage, nor his adopted, loving "parents" who also happened to be good people, neither did he was a champion of the people like Sanguinius, who also shared hardships with his Tribe on daily basis. Johnson grew up in the forest, then was taken by soldier-knights, who's only duty was fighting beasts and other knights while living strict, organised, isolated and disciplined life in the fortresses of the Order. He probably had very little interaction with Calibanites or almost none at all, and didn't live with "his people" like Sanguinius or RG. Besides what's very important Lion was kind of reliant on Luther, his only friend-brother-father. Luther was extremely charismatic, hell, he was even respected by Astartes from other legions even though he was just a normal (augmented) human. It was Luther who always did the talking and it was Luther who refined Lion's plans and ideas to presnet them to others. Luther was a velvet glove - without Luther only iron fist remained. Nevertheless Lion could stand for himself and evidently was respected by his brothers as a leader, but respect was all he got. I don't think he was liked, nor was he invited for joined campaign birthday parties. At least unlike some other primarchs he was ok with that.

My point: It's unfair to judge Lion compared to pinnacle of Socially Perfect Primarchs when clearly he was not of the sort.

Did you lose a bit of post there? While you're right about Lexicanum in general, I did mention which books it cites as the source for the claims I quoted, but I don't have access to them to check myself.

Yup, and there was much more.eh. There was a qoute from Leman Russ about Lion and politics, will provide it later.

 

Once again: I don't try to make Lion look like a saint, he was a bastard (like most of them), but he was not a stupid, socially awkward monster either.

So the example of heat of the moment, the Lion actually had a better situation and less stressful one than Sanguinius. Sanguinius’ flagship literally wrecked into a daemon world, his guys were being slaughtered, he had a vision of his death, and there was no way off the planet yet.

 

And he still didn’t kill his guy

 

 

That particular scene still disgusts me, though I have found almost all written by Gav are distasteful and inaccurate. 

[Dhar'Neth]

On topic: I always imagined that (almost) every legion had this silent respect for the First Legion, as they were the exemplars and precedesors. However at the time of the heresy most legions think those were the days of glory past - long ago, and while they’re still respected, everyone knows that time has moved on and old strategies and tactics evolved.

 

Offtopic: I really like the Human aspect of Lion, that he has flaws, that he is less „perfect” than other primarchs, thus more akin to humans. I like that each primarch has one unique trait about them and Lions is just that he is most similiar to regular humans.

[noigrim]

Lion was way behind Horus, Sanguinius and Guilliman were better in everybody's opinion and the Angels was candidate nr2 for warmaster according to malevolence.

Microlegion and aloof isolationism didn't work too well for him

[bluntblade]

Here's a thought: the First Legion of the Xenocides aren't exactly the First Legion of 001. M31. The vast majority of that conflict's survivors are dead by now, so I wonder if that wouldn't have an effect on how the Dark Angels themselves are perceived.

[Azorius]

Lion was way behind Horus, Sanguinius and Guilliman were better in everybody's opinion and the Angels was candidate nr2 for warmaster according to malevolence.

Microlegion and aloof isolationism didn't work too well for him

The Sanguinius has always been a most potent Warmaster candidate. It is well known and explicitly stated Horus has deemed Sanguinius as his better and secretly jealous at him in his heart. I don't deny that.

 

Guilliman's own opinion regarding the Lion is quite different from above. 

 

What microlegion is? 

[Vykes]

He wasn't secretly jealous of Sanguinius, he was pretty open about the fact that his favourite glitzy bird boy was his 'better' when it came to temperament and vision.  He might have a bit of a secret jealousy of Gulliman (or intimidated to some degree), but Gulliman and even the Khan were apparently a bit spiteful after Ullanor as they were the distraction for Horus and the Emperor's attack that they couldn't claim credit for. Putting weight on their opinions when it's coloured as such, might not be the most unbiased way to go. 

 

Wasn't Dorn shortlisted for Warmaster, too? 

 

Anyway, they're Luna Wolves, "they were outnumbered, but when had that ever mattered?"  

[Marshal Rohr]

Dorn wasn't on the list, unfortunately. He was a great Legion Commander, and a good subordinate, but he didn't have the spark of personality that separates the Alexander's from the Bradley's.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

To me the Lion is a sort of mini Emperor. Just less refined. Doing what he wants and dam the rest. This is kinda what put hin at odds with being the warmaster. Pre horus's corruption he was tasked with quite literally "leading the leaders" and understood all of his brothers well enough to do so. However, the lion, although a good leader and ruthless pursuer of his own goals was never good at being told "no".

 

Wouldn't of suprised me if even without the chaos gods involvement he had sparked an inter legionary war because some like russ and Angron may of told him to fornicate off.....

[rendingon1+]

:edit

 

Damn, I was not supposed to write offtop posts anymore.

[Vykes]

I was going through the end of the Vengeful Spirit audio book and I came across at least a bit of a line that may be of some interest as it comes from not one but two individuals: Maloghurst and Horus himself. 

 

"Mal, are you telling me my business?"
"No, sir!" 
"Good.  Because I see the complexity of war differently to other men. Killing on this scale isn't about numbers and movement on a battlefield, just by observing them I bend them and shape them to my will.  Can you imagine any of my brothers mastering so chaotic an endeavour of war as I do?" 
"No sir." 
"C'mon Mal, you're better than that!  Stop sounding like a sycophant and answer honestly!" 
"Perhaps Gulliman?" 
"Too obvious.  Some think he has no heart for war, that all he cares for are grand plans and strategems.  They're wrong.  He knows war as well as I do, he just wishes he didn't." 

"Then perhaps Dorn." 
"No.  He's too hidebound.  Nor the Lion, or Vulkan, and not the Khan even if we're so close in alignment."  
"Then who?" 
"Ferrus." 
"Then why's he dead?" 
"I didn't say he was perfect." 

~Vengeful Spirit C.23, emphasis mine. 

[Azorius]

He wasn't secretly jealous of Sanguinius, he was pretty open about the fact that his favourite glitzy bird boy was his 'better' when it came to temperament and vision.  He might have a bit of a secret jealousy of Gulliman (or intimidated to some degree), but Gulliman and even the Khan were apparently a bit spiteful after Ullanor as they were the distraction for Horus and the Emperor's attack that they couldn't claim credit for. Putting weight on their opinions when it's coloured as such, might not be the most unbiased way to go. 

 

Wasn't Dorn shortlisted for Warmaster, too? 

 

Anyway, they're Luna Wolves, "they were outnumbered, but when had that ever mattered?"  

 

Horus being jealous at Sanguinius isn't opinion of Guilliman or the Khan, it is stated in Malevolence, over several times, though admittedly narrator could be biased. 

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Of course. Sang was a friggin angel. Does make you wonder however, was Horus only as good as he was because he had so much direct influence given to him by thr Emperor so early on.

 

Makes you wonder what would happen if robby,the lion or any other primarch was found first. Would they of been so great?

[Vykes]

 

He wasn't secretly jealous of Sanguinius, he was pretty open about the fact that his favourite glitzy bird boy was his 'better' when it came to temperament and vision.  He might have a bit of a secret jealousy of Gulliman (or intimidated to some degree), but Gulliman and even the Khan were apparently a bit spiteful after Ullanor as they were the distraction for Horus and the Emperor's attack that they couldn't claim credit for.....

 

Horus being jealous at Sanguinius isn't opinion of Guilliman or the Khan, it is stated in Malevolence, over several times, though admittedly narrator could be biased. 

 

 

Never said they were Azorius,  I said they had a potential bias from a recent issue and Horus may have been jealous of Gulliman by his own words.   

 

That's an interesting question, Son of Dorn.  I'd say very likely that if Jonson was found first he'd have likely been a lot more effective as a diplomat (maybe not as good a warrior) but probably right up there was warmaster material.  All supposition, of course.