Question on Tau Melee

[BloodWolves]

Does anyone else find it odd that the Tau are modelled with an Asian influence but yet they aren't good at melee? Yet, their influence have the best warriors in swordsmanship and even martial arts? If in equal or no armour.. I think a samurai would decimate a knight any day. Just a thought.

[brother_b]

I picture a giant knight warden just stepping on a samurai. Eh, I see what you mean though.

[BloodWolves]

Haha oh dear not an imperial knight.

[Panzer]

Not everything asian is samurai so I don't find it that weird at all to be honest. The main influences are obviously just the caste system and the mecha where the latter is mostly a modern day influence and has nothing to do with the time of samurai.

 

 

Yet, their influence have the best warriors in swordsmanship and even martial arts? If in equal or no armour.. I think a samurai would decimate a knight any day. Just a thought.

 

That's just a myth, common misconception and even a meme these days. Western swordsmanship wasn't inferior at all. In fact they even had the better swords as they had access to better quality steel and the fancy smithing process used for samurai swords was just what's required to make up for the flaws in their steel. It was also mostly designed to hit "soft" targets (compared to western swords) and would become quickly unusable in a fight against an actual knight the same way as western swords have trouble getting through asian paper armour (which isn't what samurai were wearing anyway).

If in equal and no armour? It would be an equal fight. You apparently don't know but there were things like martial arts in western medieval times as well and knights were trained in those. They just don't get hyped up as much like the asian martial arts in movies and such.

 

In the end of the day both, knights and samurai, were warriors with better gear than what they were fighting most of the time so they simply slaughtered their targets ... which often were simple peasents without any armour, training or proper weaponry. It were bloody times and fighting wasn't anywhere as honorouble or cool as people seem to think.

 

Anyway, enough offtopic. This is no history forum after all. T'au don't have melee because GW didn't just copy all modern asian tropes and fantasies. They made a modern faction with a different twist on their walkers than other factions have, partially inspired by anime (mainly the Riptide and the Fusion Blades), and added some mild asian flavour like the caste system which is as much indian as it's japanese.

[BloodWolves]

Well I still think Tau should at least have some sort of melee weapons.

 

At the sake of starting a new topic. And since I did start this thread and cant rename it..

Has anyone also wondered why a race with the best technology and most advanced weapons shoot at the same skill as a basic Guardsmen? Has anyone ever play tested Tau to have a minimum BS of 3+ and keep the WS at 5+? At the same point cost or even at increase of 1 point cost?

[Panzer]

At the sake of starting a new topic. And since I did start this thread and cant rename it..

Has anyone also wondered why a race with the best technology and most advanced weapons shoot at the same skill as a basic Guardsmen? Has anyone ever play tested Tau to have a minimum BS of 3+ and keep the WS at 5+? At the same point cost or even at increase of 1 point cost?

Because they have horrible eyesight and are only good shots because of Markerlights. With enough Markerlights crunch-wise they hit on 3+, re-roll 1s, ignore cover and can properly shoot with heavy weapons after moving which is better than a Space Marine with a Captain nearby to be fair.

[Trevak Dal]

Does anyone else find it odd that the Tau are modelled with an Asian influence but yet they aren't good at melee? Yet, their influence have the best warriors in swordsmanship and even martial arts? If in equal or no armour.. I think a samurai would decimate a knight any day. Just a thought.

Well modern militaries teach hand to hand fighting even if it (rarely) comes up in infantry combat. Guns just are very good hole pokers, that's why 50 guys who can't read with crossbows + guys with pikes > some lorded knights in plate armor.

 

Tau being the shootiest of armies (not having any psychic/psychic like or combat ability) they should get benefits to shooting in close combat.

 

And Enclaves should have +1 to hit in combat anyway.

[Guest Triszin]

I'd rather they get pistols, and barrier shields, that create actual barrier between them and melee units. I.e. keep them 1" away

[Panzer]

Enclaves with +1 to-hit in melee makes no sense. It's only Farsight and one of his weirdo commanders who enjoy getting into melee. The rest of the Enclaves fights like regular T'au with a slight focus on dropping Crisis on the heads of their enemies.

 

I also don't think getting a bonus to shooting in combat would be a good idea. They already get better overwatch and half of the units can FLY. Getting into melee is already not much of a big deal for T'au as is.

[BloodWolves]

I was thinking something like Infantry fusion blades. Just a +1 Strength blade. But I like the idea of pistol and shield

[Waking Dreamer]

It would be nice to have some melee rules to go along with the Ritual Bonding Knife they include in every infantry / crisis / commander box set. Nothing major, maybe AP-1in melee?

 

Crisis Commanders start with WS3+, along Cadre FireBLADEs who have it modelled in the very hand already! Just something to go along with the leaders who usually have at least +1A, and who are distinguished above the others by having that knife modelled onto them. For me, it would be just for completeness sake as I have them on my models and wonder why you wouldn't even be a fraction better off than the guy who doesn't have one strapped on at all...

[Panzer]

The ritual bonding knife is no actual weapon for use in combat. It's literally a knife they used in a ritual where they formed a blood brotherhood with their team and is just symbolic, hence why it helps with Morale tests.

[Guest Triszin]

This is one thing I've said before, Tau don't need melee, it's why they ate so good at overwatch.

 

Something like this.

 

Barrier drone.

5-6 wounds, t8.

 

Creates a barrier shields that keeps enemy models 3" away from the drone.

 

Multiple barrier drones can make walls, that can actually prevent vehicles from moving through them.

 

 

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Or imagine the tide wall barrier shield, just on a large drone protecting squads, and locking down areas between building

 

 

 

--

 

On phone I struggle

[Panzer]

It's not like I don't want melee capabilities in my T'au army. Just not with actual T'au units. They have a reason to not do melee. Leave that job for the auxiliary races.

[Guest Triszin]

Add the tallariandog "lizard" men and guevessa for punching

[Gederas]

At the sake of starting a new topic. And since I did start this thread and cant rename it..

Has anyone also wondered why a race with the best technology and most advanced weapons shoot at the same skill as a basic Guardsmen? Has anyone ever play tested Tau to have a minimum BS of 3+ and keep the WS at 5+? At the same point cost or even at increase of 1 point cost?

Because they have horrible eyesight and are only good shots because of Markerlights. With enough Markerlights crunch-wise they hit on 3+, re-roll 1s, ignore cover and can properly shoot with heavy weapons after moving which is better than a Space Marine with a Captain nearby to be fair.

One of my mates at my FLGS actually commented on this: The T'au, in canon, have bad eyesight in regards to depth-perception. This wouldn't give them issues with shooting (depth-perception doesn't matter when aiming down a rifle's sights or a scope), but it DOES matter in melee. It's why T'au avoid it.

 

Because with bad depth-perception, you're not actually aiming your melee strikes properly because you can't judge the distance properly.

[Panzer]

 

At the sake of starting a new topic. And since I did start this thread and cant rename it..

Has anyone also wondered why a race with the best technology and most advanced weapons shoot at the same skill as a basic Guardsmen? Has anyone ever play tested Tau to have a minimum BS of 3+ and keep the WS at 5+? At the same point cost or even at increase of 1 point cost?

Because they have horrible eyesight and are only good shots because of Markerlights. With enough Markerlights crunch-wise they hit on 3+, re-roll 1s, ignore cover and can properly shoot with heavy weapons after moving which is better than a Space Marine with a Captain nearby to be fair.

One of my mates at my FLGS actually commented on this: The T'au, in canon, have bad eyesight in regards to depth-perception. This wouldn't give them issues with shooting (depth-perception doesn't matter when aiming down a rifle's sights or a scope), but it DOES matter in melee. It's why T'au avoid it.

 

Because with bad depth-perception, you're not actually aiming your melee strikes properly because you can't judge the distance properly.

 

 

T'au avoid melee for multiple reasons. They are also physically weaker than many other races.

Yeah I've read that elsewhere as well. That's just GW not knowing their stuff though. They give bad eyesight as reason for why they need the technology for shooting as well so that's how it is. ^^

[shandwen]

...

Because with bad depth-perception, you're not actually aiming your melee strikes properly because you can't judge the distance properly.

Depth perception is also needed for quick range judgement, which may not be super important with rail guns or pulse weapons, but would probably come to bite them with others.

[Marshlands]

Tau are supposed to suck at melee, I'd prefer alternative ways to deal with units up close, like circumventing melee. Barrier drones sound interesting but I'd see rules abuse.

 

Something letting them shoot into combat with limitations would be cool, i did think a good kroot strat would be if a unit of Kroot could sacrifice their chance to swing, to crouch down defensively and let tau shoot into that combat

[Guest Triszin]

Tau are supposed to suck at melee, I'd prefer alternative ways to deal with units up close, like circumventing melee. Barrier drones sound interesting but I'd see rules abuse.

 

Something letting them shoot into combat with limitations would be cool, i did think a good kroot strat would be if a unit of Kroot could sacrifice their chance to swing, to crouch down defensively and let tau shoot into that combat

Cp strats for auxillary to boost army cohesiveness would be rad.

 

But ya, I like the barrier shield idea, but as you said it needs work so it is balanced

[Panzer]

The shield idea sounds interesting but I'm no fan of the idea to completely deny an enemy melee just like that. Way too easy to turn out to be broken in an objective based game.

[Marshlands]

The charge reducing auras can already be quite nasty.

 

Maybe a drone that isn't deployed but dropped in the Fight Phase to push models away - so you only have say 1 or 2 and it's not enough to push an enemy out of combat just reduce attacks

 

I could see quite an interesting option for a vigilus type detachment for tau infantry, like something where all Infantry gain the buff and it's worked so you get a benefit from taking a mix of different units like kroot, vespids, pathfinders and fire warriors working in synergy

[BloodWolves]

Ok but still even with bad vision.. isn't their helmets supposed to have advanced targeting systems to compensate for that fact? Just seems odd that a ranged army has bad skill in.. range attacks?

 

Im just thinking like my wife.. she isnt a bad shot but I put a laser light grip on a 9 and she is like John Wick. And im guessing the technology in a Tau Fire Warrior helmet woukd be 40000 years ahead of a laser dot.

 

But hey.. Guess thats what the Survey was for so I put in a bit about wishes and wants for Tau

[brother_b]

They made the BS 4 so they could add the marker light rule. It was all a game design move. I’ve wondered the same thing since they were released.

[Panzer]

Partially game design and partially fluff. Not everything in the rules represents the fluff perfectly and GW repeatedly told us that just because two models have the same stat it doesn't mean they are exactly the same. Could be that T'au units with BS4+ are on one end of the scale that almost justifies BS3+ while Guardsmen with BS4+ are on the other end of the scale that almost justifies BS5+.