Drop Pods or Rhinos

[strawberry fist]

Hi all,

 

Like the Title says, drop pods or rhinos??

I'm currently running a Blood Raven army, using Salamander chapter tactics, I've been running a couple of rhino's in my army but due to them being my only tanks they usually gone within the first couple of turns. I was wondering if it would be better to use drop pods instead as they're fluffy (fleet based chapter) and they can take units into the opponents deployment zone/ tactical location sooner. 

 

I experiment with a unit of 8 sternguard the other day and apart from a poor choice for deployment they didn't do ok, killed a unit of hell blaster but then got decimated by 2 units of intercessors. 

 

So the question is are drop pods more effective over rhino's?

If so which units would be best to optimise the use of the Drop Pod?

 

Thanks

[Deafbok]

Long-time marine player, here - specifically a "Steel Rain" player from 5th ed on (EVERYTHING in drop pods!).

 

Common consensus is that Rhinos are the better choice - they remain mobile, have a smidge more firepower, are better costed, and just generally have better utility. The trade-off is the ability to hold off reinforcements to come down in very specific locations when they do come down in exchange for that versatility. 

 

You seem to have identified one of the most common problems - with only a couple of Rhinos, you lack target saturation. In short, there are few targets that your opponent would choose for his anti-tank weaponry, so he'll dedicate it against your Rhinos and wipe them in short order, whilst his anti-infantry targets your squishier stuff. More Rhinos means they're more difficult to deal with, since he's less likely to kill them all at once. 

8th neutered pods pretty badly, so mine are currently mothballed. A lot of the rules that made them unique no longer exist, or wouldn't matter if they did. That said, they could still have some utility if you're set on it. Dreads, Sternguard, company veterans - anything with decent damage potential as a suicide unit or distraction carnifex can work well with a pod - make it something annoying that HAS to be dealt with, and it can take heat off your other stuff. That said, jump-pack equipped troops can do the same with a smaller footprint at less cost, so weigh your options carefully. 

Probably the most important thing I can say for the long term, though, is choose what you enjoy the idea of. Rules change, but your models won't. I'll take my pods out again one day, whilst I've never been a treadhead and don't enjoy the idea of a mech column as much, despite it being the more effective choice. How do you want to play?

[strawberry fist]

Normally I've been running 

Captain -power sword and master crafted bolter

Gabriel Angelos

 

3 Tactical Squads, all combat squads, chainswords and storm boaters, 2 with plasma guns and one with lascannon

2 rhino's

company ancient

tartarus terminators with reaper autocannon

2  5 man hellblaster squads with rapid fire guns

thunderfire cannon

 

but after quite a lot of games I want to try something different as Gabriel and the terminators aren't pulling their weight and 'earning their points back'. So I've been thinking of swapping them out for 8 stern guards with one lightning claw (Sgt) another captain with master crafter Bolter and relic blade, librarian with storm Bolter evissor assassin and a drop pod (swapping out a rhino to get the sternguard, second captain in the pale they're needed)

 

As I'm not a massive Primaris fan I'm trying to keep the army in the old marine format.  

 

It would be nice to make the list more thematic and have some more drop pods with some juicy units inside of them. 

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

An ironclad dreadnought may be a useful unit to droppod in...I have no experience with either, but it’s a big scary bawks with lots of potential damage output. Use it to draw fire while other heavy hitters get close.

 

That said, I’m a treadhead (comes with the tenth’s geneline) through and through, so personally I’d recommend rhinos (and if you’re crazy like me, Land Raiders) for the transportation of troops.

 

For fire drawing at long range, a land raider or a predator makes a very attractive target.

Keep the predator barebones but effective (Dakka pred) or the land raider useful (LRC/R transporting assault troops) and your rhinos will live a turn or two longer.

 

In the end though, as Deafbok said, rules change, models do not, and you should pick what you like best (on that note, those Sternguard probably killed more points worth of hellblasters than what they cost—good choice of target!).

[strawberry fist]

I’ve thought about putting an ironclad dreadnought in there with a hurricane Bolter and fist but if you look at the transport bit for a drop pod it says it can transport 10 infantry models and the dreadnought isn’t and infantry model. Unless it’s in a FAQ.

[strawberry fist]

Just looked in the Forgeworld index, he can go in a Lucius Drop Pod, which is 15 points more than a normal Pod.

 

Would you give an ironclad a huracane Bolter, chainfist, heavy flamer and iron clad launchers?

 

Would be nice if another pod came down with a librarian and made him toughness 9 with might of hero’s!

[HighMarshalAmp]

Now the Drop Pods give you a chance to get your guys up the board sooner. But after all the DS nerfs, a turn 2 DS might not get you a lot further than a transport if your opponent does it right (Nids with Swarmlord etc).

Rhinos don't quite pack the firepower a Razorback brings to the table, but you can still use them as mobile LOS blockers and they're not completely unarmed.

 

Still, at 65pts a piece, 2 pods might be worth a shot. If you can get a unit with loads of potential dice in RF range on turn 2, clear a screen and off whatever valuable unit they were screening with the other pod's passengers, that's priceless.

Also, nobody's expecting Drop Pods these days.

 

About the Ironclad: the CF is the better choice, the Hurricane Bolter is a beast with Beta Bolters and at 5pts, the Assault Launchers are a no-brainer.

I'd invest 12pts to give it 2 HK Missiles as well.

The Flamer vs Melta question depends on the opponent. Elite Army -> Melta. Anything else -> Flamer.

Edit: and yes, an Ironclad with Might of Heroes is wonderful. It won't last a turn regardless as soon as it comes close to charge range, but it has tremendous potential.

[Kua]

The problems with dropping dreads are mostly:

Expensive pod and no weapons that are really dangerous between 9" and 18". Hurricane bolter are just bolters, and with everything else you don't need the sudden close range.

You could drop it as a nuisance if it was worth the cost.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

It's not just about damage. You have to consider what kind of effects the appearance of the Ironclad is going to have on your opponent and their plan for the game.

 

Does it suck anti-tank fire from other targets? Does it force him off an objective? Does it make him redirect his own deep strikers to deal with it?

 

Tactics win battles folks.

[Captain Idaho]

I've got to back up the above point - a Hurricane Bolter with melta gun might not break an army but the threat of a D4 Chainfist is not going to disappear easily on a T8 platform so all of a sudden you've got a genuine unit that needs dealing with on your doorstep so it will change your opponent's plans or they're in trouble.

 

Other units that can go into Drop Pods and use the deployment options are Company Veterans, Sternguard and Tactical squads. Consider the latter potentially as 2 separate units so you end up with 2 combis and 2 Special weapons, as a numbers boost for other attacking elements.

 

I personally find Rhinos are my preference, however. For a relatively modest increase you can get a shield for a unit, an extra T7 unit for Overwatch soak or just clogging up opposing units in close combat. They also give you a fair bit of speed.

[strawberry fist]

I’m thinking of going for the Ironclad with huracaine boltgun, meltagun and chainfist. Backed up with either 2 combat squads or sternguard. Would be nice to have some raining death for a change :)

 

Just need some back field units to hold the fort until turn 2/3. Thunderfire cannon is a must

[The Unseen]

I don't see how a pod really gets a dread into the opponents face faster than walking. You start either 18" or 24" away from your opponents deployment zone. Deployed at you deployment edge, turn one you can move 6+D6 inches, turn 2 the same, giving you an average movement of of 19" by the end of turn 2. Compare that to being 9" away from the enemy at the start of turn 2, and you kinda wonder whether the points you spent on the pod were worth it. If I was going to run an ironclad, I'd probably just walk it in, use smoke/los of sight blocking terrain to help keep it alive. If the opponent focuses it, it will die, but the same goes for if you plopped it in his face turn 2 just the same. And if you using it to draw fire from other units with its T8, its better to do that if it starts on the table.

 

Also, Rhinos, always, 100% of the time. Retain mobility past the drop, have 2 storm bolters for picking off infantry wounds, can tie up units in combat and soak overwatch for other units, etc. Rhinos have a lot of utility beyond "get unit to X point", pods in this edition are a points intensive way of doing what other armies can do for a single CP.

[Captain Idaho]

You got to shoot your guns on the way in, otherwise you may as well be a Carnifex!

 

Even a Hurricane Bolter is 12 extra shots as you advance.

 

Though I would concede on the way in you can advance and pop smoke for extra survivability. So I DO agree that food slogging the Ironclad would be my preference.

[strawberry fist]

With the Bolter Drill rules the dreadnought counts as rapid firing even though it moves, but if it advances it won’t be able to shoot, that’s right isn’t it?

 

Maybe drop pod in some sternguard and melta veterans while the ironclad marches up the table :)

[HighMarshalAmp]

With the Bolter Drill rules the dreadnought counts as rapid firing even though it moves, but if it advances it won’t be able to shoot, that’s right isn’t it?

 

Maybe drop pod in some sternguard and melta veterans while the ironclad marches up the table

 

That won't work, I'm sorry to say. The Dread is a target for anti armor, the Veterans are a target for anti infantry. So you're not providing threat saturation, you're providing multiple viable and not mutually exclusive targets.

 

To keep fire away from the Dread, which WILL become a priority target for your opponent at some point or another anyway, you need to present him with several other heavily armored targets - like, incidentally, Rhinos or variants thereof.

If they're more dangerous short-term than the Dread, they'll get shot at instead of the Dread.

That way, it will still have wounds left when he finally has to focus fire on it.

Another way would be to use more Dreads to ensure at least some get into charge range, but obviously, that's not a good strategy.

 

A risky bet could be to prepare several DS teams and drop them in front of his anti armor units to delete them.

It's risky because he'll screen those so if you can't get into range with your DS teams, you can only drop your DS teams in front of chaff and try to clear it with high S, low shot count weaponry. That's no fun and not even a particularly efficient suicide mission.

 

Apart from that, yes, advancing rules out shooting anything but Assault Weapons.

[strawberry fist]

So been thinking...

 

Captain- relic blade and master crafted Bolter

Techmarine- Bolter chain sword

 

Tactical Squad x7 plasma gun, chainsword + storm Bolter

Tactical Squad x7 plasma gun, chainsword + storm Bolter

Tactical Squad x5 plasma gun, chainsword + storm Bolter

 

Hellblaster x5 plasma incinerator

Hellblaster x5 plasma incinerator

Thunderfire cannon

 

Company ancient- banner of emperor

Ironclad chainfist, melta, huracaine boltgun, ironclad launchers, x2 hunter killer missiles

Venerable dreadnought twin lascannon and missile launcher

 

Drop pod x2 (tactical)

Lucius drop pod (ironclad)

 

Assassin depending on the opponent

[Honda]

Long-time marine player, here - specifically a "Steel Rain" player from 5th ed on (EVERYTHING in drop pods!).

 

 

<fistbump>

 

Drop pods have definitely lost some of their more endearing capabilities, but still have value. I am also from the Steel Rain school of thought, which is "go big or go home".

 

If you are going to use drop pods put everything you can in them and then live large.

 

Putting one or two units deep into the enemy's zone is more likely to allow the entirety of the opponent's forces to focus on a bit of yours and then take it off the table. You need to ensure your hammer blows strike in quick succession to disrupt the enemy and unless you are immediately following up with something like a wave of Storm Ravens, then you are very likely just feeding the opponent your forces piecemeal.

 

I recognize that were just theorizing, but when you put a plan together, take into consideration that your opponent will recognize what your distraction forces represent and take advantage of them. Planning on your opponent doing stupid things is how you get to reenact Operation Market Garden in 40K.

 

My two yen.

 

Also, I think I should state that I'm not saying one option is better than the other, just make sure that when you pull the trigger on one, do it wholeheartedly.

[Jacques Corbin]

Just looked in the Forgeworld index, he can go in a Lucius Drop Pod, which is 15 points more than a normal Pod.

 

Would you give an ironclad a huracane Bolter, chainfist, heavy flamer and iron clad launchers?

 

Would be nice if another pod came down with a librarian and made him toughness 9 with might of hero’s!

Yes! That is a fantastic load out for an Ironclad. Move him up aggressively, and advance, then use your smoke launchers if there is nothing to shoot. It is rather scary, and certain opponents will chance -1 to hit to eliminate that dread.

 

Another alternative, along the same line of giving your opponent a scarier target, is to get a Landraider Crusader for GA and your Tartaros. 2 sets of Hurricane Bolters and Twin Assault Cannons on a scary T8 platform.

 

Conversely, you could invest in Scouts in Land Speeders Storm. Cheap, fast, and soft enough to be tempting. I like to hold mine in reserve, then zoom them onto the table. 18" from your table edge, anywhere along your table edge, puts you in a good position to take an onjective that turn or next. Plus the Scouts can fire out of the vehicle.

 

I agree that Drop Pods are not optimal this edition. I would do an Apothecary, 4 Co Vets to catch wounds on the Apothecary, and a unit of Sternguard. Or, if you have the Elite slots, instead of a unit of 4 Co Vets, do 2 units of 2. That way, your opponent has 4 units to shoot at instead of just 3. Plus, people obsessed with "points efficiency" will be loathe to dedicate any amount of fire to kill 2 models. Consider just Special issue bolters on the Sternguard, and Storm Bolters and Chainswords on the veterans.