Atia Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 Howdy Guys and Girls :) Little overview on how to take Knights with Doom of Molech: - In most battles, Household Support Banners are support units for your Titan Battlegroup - these can have mixed wargear if you wish so. - If you decide to take a Household Force instead, you will have to group your Knights together into formations called "Lance". Each Household Force must have atleast one lance. - A Lance consists of exactly three banners. Unlike their titan support siblings, a banner here must be all armed the same way (so for example, 3-6 Questoris Knight Paladins per Banner). That said, banners within a lance can be armed differently (so for example, 1 Paladin Banner, 1 Crusader Banner and 1 Gallant banner). - Atleast two Banners within the Lance must be of the same type (Questoris, Cerastus or Acastus). - They operate similiar to squadrons of Titans. All Knights within a lance are a single unit for deployement and activition. - They have 3" Banner coherency, and 6" Lance coherency. - One Banner within the lance is the High Scion's Banner, giving you additional Stratagem points. - One Banner within your force contains your Seneshal - for that banner, you can mix weapons but if you do so, you can't use their new order. - New Order? Yep, Coordinated Strike. Allows you to buff the strength of your weapon, so basically Knight Wardens are now worth something! - You can also add Freeblade Banners to your army - they can't be formed into lances or use their special order, but you can mix weapons. And now let's /discuss - what combination of banners would you use, or how would you arm Freeblade banners? Any cool sample lists? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherrypie Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 I feel it's a bit early to start the tactics discussion, given we'll still have knightly qualities, household traits and whatnots on top of the basic structure. What I find interesting is that while individual Banners are pretty flexible in both maneuvering and granting you activations, Lances cost easily 500+ points per and are forced to move within 6" coherencies. If you cannot quickly get in grips with your opponent, they'll have a target rich environment for all sorts of Blast weapons and might very well outactivate you, thus getting the edge on ranges and timing. I like this, as it means that it's less likely to just outright swamp titan armies with bad decisions and you'll have to accept that many of your knights will get blown to pieces on the way in. If that new Order does indeed raise the Strenght value of the attacks, and not just modify the Armour roll, Avenger and Castigators might indeed get an actual job. Especially Avengers, as they are cheap as chips while pumping out bazillion shots that could tear most shields apart in a blink of an eye from a respectable range. In pure knight lists that might still not be too hot, given their other ranged options are somewhat weak until we get Acastuses, but if you can combine Lances and Maniples in battlegroups that immediately jumps up in value. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5299975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted April 21, 2019 Author Share Posted April 21, 2019 I feel it's a bit early to start the tactics discussion, given we'll still have knightly qualities, household traits and whatnots on top of the basic structure. Sadly, it seems like knights won't get household traits per sé - only knightly qualities for their lance leaders, aswell as some fluff and an artwork for each house :| Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5299981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
noigrim Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 The main drawback of the lance is that the banners must move 6'' close which makes them easy to target, whereas say two support banners can sneak by the sides. Since there is a titans vs knights scenario in the book I guess I would take 9 questoris with termal and melee vs a warlord and load up on blind barrages Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5300030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted April 21, 2019 Author Share Posted April 21, 2019 The main drawback of the lance is that the banners must move 6'' close which makes them easy to target, whereas say two support banners can sneak by the sides. Since there is a titans vs knights scenario in the book I guess I would take 9 questoris with termal and melee vs a warlord and load up on blind barrages Indeed - I guess this also means you will want to keep Cerastus Knights seperatly from Questoris, aswell as pure shooty banners together (so for example Acastus alongside Questoris Crusader?)? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5300033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendi Warrior Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 Due to the coherency constraint I would think of using a Lance in a knight vs knight scenario rather than vs titans to avoid giving a target rich environment. My 2 cents for the moment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5300040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
noigrim Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 Yes, fast knights should go together Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5300052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 Willing to bet Acastus will be very slow too. Maybe Warlord slow. They'll probably hold Questor AND Cerastus up, so that may be another thing to think about. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5300076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted April 21, 2019 Author Share Posted April 21, 2019 Willing to bet Acastus will be very slow too. Maybe Warlord slow. They'll probably hold Questor AND Cerastus up, so that may be another thing to think about. Hence I though about using it alongside Questoris Crusaders with battle cannons and gattlings? Maybe even a banner with just gattlings? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5300080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 Hence I though about using it alongside Questoris Crusaders with battle cannons and gattlings? Maybe even a banner with just gattlings? I think for Household Forces, it's probably best to avoid double gatling. I just spent a while trying to get a better look at the Coordinated Strike Order section in the BoLS video, because I wanted to know if I could do a Coordinated Strike with a double gatling banner... 16 shots with a strength bonus would be great, right? But I'm pretty sure you can only make an attack with one weapon, and it can't have the Melee trait. And if I made it out correctly, Knights out of range, out of LoS, or within 2" of the target can't participate. So to keep a gatling banner cheap and flexible, I'd be inclined to just run Avenger Gatling + Melee Weapons and call it a day. I can see a case for Crusader load-outs where the banner is running a mix of two different ranged weapons, though, especially for hanging back with some Acastus. Even the Gatling/Battlecannon mix could be ok, but you'll lose out on your Battlecannon shooting for a turn when you attempt a Coordinated Strike to make the Gatling Cannons effective.* Having melee weapons instead of the Gatling Cannons could be useful as a deterrent against enemy Warhounds and Knights getting all up in the face of your Acastus? *assuming I made out the Coordinated Strike rules well enough Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5300113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 I don't think Gatling is as bad as people say in AT. It's not a world burner by any means, but it will strip shields. Especially in larger quantities, like double Gatling would give you. My question is, would double Gatling Knights be able to integrate with Gatling / Melee without breaking the Banner? Or would they ALL have to have one or the other? But yeah, I would definitely pair Acastus with double ranged weapon Knights, if only because their superior movement (again, just a guess since we really don't know yet) wouldn't be utilized as much as Knights who are attempting to get into melee. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5300118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 Gatling can't touch void shields Impenetrable Barrier, p.34 of the rulebook: void shield saves are automatically passed vs S3 and under. And most bonuses affect armour rolls instead of the strength value itself. Even if voids do fall, Gatling can't damage any current Titans without an armour roll bonus from structural damage or flanking (S3 vs armour 10 on Warhounds), and it can barely do anything to other Knights when it needs to get through BS4+, ion saves, and then rolling 6s to cause Direct Hits against armour 9 for only 1 structural damage/hit. But now we have Coordinated Strikes... I'm pretty sure the load-out has to be identical when it comes to equipment a Knight must purchase. At least you can definitely do as you like with optional equipment such as meltaguns and rocket pods, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5300137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 Meh... yeah, you're right. I've read of Gatling Knights felling Warlords, however. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5300152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 Double post Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5300155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandragola Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 I had another look at the blurry video and it does actually add 1 to the strength of everything taking part in the coordinated strike - it doesn't just add 1 to armour rolls. So S4 avenger gatlings that can knock down shields, and will actually do so really well. A single banner of wardens would fire 24 shots. So that's great. But there's a problem I think. You have to give an order to a whole lance of knights. If they are doing a coordinated strike to bring down shields they are not charging or double moving. And they are in line of sight of at least one titan, which could be an issue! Still it's quite cool as an option to have. It definitely means that avenger gatlings are a better option than a second ccw. I'm not sure if it's worth taking crusaders though. Some of the time (maybe a lot of the time) you're still going to want to charge. Having that ccw will be pretty essential I think. I guess in theory it might be worth it in a lance with a banner or two of Acastus knights, if and when those are finally released. The problem is that if you give 3 knights double guns it leaves 3 other knight models with no guns at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5300163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherrypie Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 I've killed Reavers with double Avengers, oy. But yes, in this context the make or break question is the exact wording of the Coordinated Strike and if it really does increase the Strenght value directly and allow stripping shields. If so, interesting vistas open. Also, if it says "attack with one weapon", remember that Knight Banners attacks by choosing a weapon and multiplying its Dice value by the amount of gun in the Banner, so it is more probably going to be along the lines of "this Banner gets +Str to attack with one weapon (type)" instead of "pick one model / one weapon", so a Banner with double Avengers would fire all its Avengers, but a Banner with Avengers and Battlecannons would have to pick one of those. Lots of "BBRRAAAAP" noises in the future, I hear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5300164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandragola Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 I checked again. There's an example of what happens when firing avenger gatling cannons, which I've only just seen. It's weird! So the rule is this. You roll a number of hit rolls equal to the normal number of dice for a single weapon. So 3 knights firing avenger cannons = 8 shots, not 24. But you add +1 to the strength (not the armour penetration, the strength) for every knight in the banner, including the first. So in the example they have 3 knights firing avenger gatling cannons. It results in 8 S6 shots. Melee weapons can't be used for a coordinated strike and any knight in melee range isn't allowed to take part. To me, this suggests that you'd really want wardens and castigators quite a bit. Castigators arguably find their niche here as shield breakers, as a unit of 2 gets a load of S5 shots. Meanwhile a unit of 6 wardens would fire 8 S9 shots - which is mad! To be fair the unit costs as much as a reaver and still might vanish to a single bellicosa shot. The ideal knights for coordinated strikes might actually be castigators and acherons. S9 flamers will be a pretty serious threat I think. On the other hand I don't think it makes much sense to do this with a thermal cannon, as you'd be a lot better off with 3 shots instead of 1. So I guess put those on your melee knights and shoot things with gatlings. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5300167 Share on other sites More sharing options...
noigrim Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 Crusaders with gatling and battlecannon would be a nice shooting platform. I've always run my knights with a close combat loadout it will be nice to try something else Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5300180 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 You'll have plenty of Strat points with a Knight force, +1 per lance, +2 for the Bossman's lance. So for 4 lances (12 banners) you'll have +5 points! These are my favourite House strats Rally to the high king (house Indra) can recycle a destroyed banner and deploy anywhere in your deployment area, they can get back in the fight quick. Id love to pop this on a max strength Lancer unit. From the storm (house mamaragon) cant be targeted for a round but cant attack. This will be great to get 24" up the board ready for turn 2 charge Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5303036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted May 6, 2019 Author Share Posted May 6, 2019 Now that the book is out, what are peoples opinions on the pure Knight list? - What's a good size for banners in a lance? Keeping them small because coherency? - Keep Cerastus and Questoris seperated? - Freeblade banners - what's a good weapons ratio, and how many of them inside a banner? 6 questoris / 4 cerastus to get most out of their shields? - How many freeblades compared with lances? Keep in mind you need 2 lances to get the Seneshal, while freeblades can have mixed weapons and have no lance coherency, aswell as beeing an extra activision. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5308264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
noigrim Posted May 6, 2019 Share Posted May 6, 2019 I would put 3x3/2 banners in order to max out on target saturation Main tactic would be to launch a smoke screen and move twice tyrn one followed by coordinated fire/charges in the following Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5308283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted May 7, 2019 Author Share Posted May 7, 2019 I would put 3x3/2 banners in order to max out on target saturation Main tactic would be to launch a smoke screen and move twice tyrn one followed by coordinated fire/charges in the following I guess with the exception of the Baronial Court and maybe Freeblades? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5308803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted May 7, 2019 Share Posted May 7, 2019 The biggest question is what's going to be lined up on the opposite side of board from you. Against a Legio you're already fighting an uphill battle that you will most likely fail. It's just a matter of fact. Titans have so many weapons that can delete Knights off the board while Knights have basically nothing at long range and very little at short range. Your best bet is close combat, but then you need to worry about Arioch Claws and Power & Chain Fists. In fact, I think I'd feel pretty confident fielding my twin-Arioch Warlord against a Knight House. Better ranged weaponry is required. You MIGHT be able to strip shields with Avenger Gatling Cannons, and even then you'll need a decent amount of them to ensure you do anything. Obviously Thermal Cannons can do some damage, but you need to be close anyhow. Against a Legio, numbers and terrain will need to be used in tandem to make a difference. Titans like Warhounds that will usually find themselves ahead of the rest of the Legio can be easily picked off by Knights and Lancers can tear a Reaver apart effectively if they can get to it, but the Warlord will always be your biggest problem. Moreso if it's on the board edge and armed with Volcano Cannons and Missile Launchers... those are perfect for erasing your Knight House. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5308833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted May 7, 2019 Author Share Posted May 7, 2019 Against a Legio you're already fighting an uphill battle that you will most likely fail. It's just a matter of fact. There's only one thing that'll bring honour to your house .... killing ... the .... dragon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5308845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
noigrim Posted May 7, 2019 Share Posted May 7, 2019 Freeblades aren't very appealing, I would take just one unit for the heroic death strat. A cool tactic would be putting heavy hitter titans in the center with two lances of flanking knights, if he goes for the knights you titans will erase his shields and if he goes for the center the knights will charge. Pure knights seems a bit flimsy to me Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355441-tactics-discussion-knight-household-force/#findComment-5308948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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