Future Black Book speculation

[Tymell]

Curious what thoughts people have on possible future Black Books from Forge World.

 

Number 9 is known to be Dark Angels and Dark Mechanicum, covering Thramas, and FW have stated that they have plans for many books beyond this. What sort of events and forces do you hope or expect to see? How could they be divided up?

 

Major ones that spring to mind for me:

• Mars (surprised this one hasn't been done already, really)
• The Webway War
• Tallarn (armoured forces?)
• Beta-Garmon (maybe more about campaign rules for different theatres of war?)
• The Shadow Crusade and the Underworld War
• Imperium Secundus and the passage through the Ruinstorm
• And of course, the Siege itself, which I'm expecting will be multiple books

 

These ones I feel could get books to themselves, and there are a bunch of potential smaller events that maybe could be packaged together:

• Alaxxes
• Prospero II
• The events of Angel Exterminatus
• Corax's guerrilla war
• The Wolf Cull
• Jaghatai's battles before returning to Terra
• The Salamanders bearing Vulkan back to Nocturne

Of course there's always the possibility they'll craft something new, or expand on something otherwise only mentioned in passing, but those are the ones I can think of based on the BL material.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Tymell

[Lord Marshal]

They've mentioned doing a Tallarn book at one of the Q&A's I think and they seem open to the idea of doing more Imperial Army stuff. I could see it happening eventually.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Lord Marshal

[battle captain corpus]

More Imperial Army would be magnificent but I can’t see it happening until at least all of the Legions have had some love!

 

BCC

[Lord Marshal]

More Imperial Army would be magnificent but I can’t see it happening until at least all of the Legions have had some love!

 

BCC

 

Oh for sure, but that's only one book until we're in the clear.

[Marshal Rohr]

I’m praying Angelus sneaks platoons for militia in there somewhere. If not I hope the book after Angelus is a return to the Conquest style and introduces Skitarii, Imperial Army, and Rogue Traders.

[Plaguecaster]

Would love it if they did a Dark Compliance style army where you can mix Traitors with Daemons as well as some more Daemonic units like some lesser Possessed available to the traitor force Edited April 23, 2019 by Plaguecaster

[Charlo]

I can see book 10 being a Conquest style book with the intention of purely cleaning up a lot of previous or older material.

 

I can also see it being a fair wait, as they will no doubt redo the Marines Army List/ Legions book at that point to cover as much off as possible (maybe even adding in thinks like Blackshields/ Shattered Legions and expanding on them).

 

They have said a lot of the time that a Mars book won't happen, but I think that will change. For one they have a whole plethora of excellent plastic kits to port over from GW (that had good 7th ed rules to use as a basis) and then expand upon *cough* Skitarii with Volkite *cough* though I'd expect this later down the line to be honest, if we are getting Dark Mech in book 9 then we don't *need* a Mars book for a long time.

 

Tallarn is an easy win, but I'm terrified to what it might do to the Meta of the game with massed Imperial Army tanks etc.

 

Calth II: Shadow-War Boogaloo is certainly coming and would be an excellent place to revisit the World Eaters (and give us a massive Resin Daemon Angron) as well as flesh out a fractured Ultramarines and *finally* give us some rules for Argel Taal. You'd probably combine this with another battle at a similar time however. Maybe some Shattered Legion stuff, or more Imperial army based upon the 500 worlds and loyalist/ traitor versions for each.

 

Wolf Cull is interesting too, as it gives an excuse to revisit the Alpha Legion and Vlka Fenryka, who by this point will be in need of a revisit!

[Marshal Rohr]

Massed Imperial Army tanks would be balanced by Massed Legion Tanks ;)

[bluntblade]

I feel like Jaghatai's war could be tied together with Meduson's campaigns and others.

[Sandlemad]

Wasn't there some mention from a recent weekender confirming than FW was going to focus on more Conquest-style books once they'd done the Dark Angels? Looking at what events could go together in the fashion of Extermination, Conquest, Retribution or Malevolence probably is the best approach, as you've outlined.

 

Calth II: Shadow-War Boogaloo is certainly coming and would be an excellent place to revisit the World Eaters (and give us a massive Resin Daemon Angron) as well as flesh out a fractured Ultramarines and *finally* give us some rules for Argel Taal. You'd probably combine this with another battle at a similar time however. Maybe some Shattered Legion stuff, or more Imperial army based upon the 500 worlds and loyalist/ traitor versions for each.

 

The wars in Ultramar as a curious one, there's actually a lot more meaty milhist stuff than I remembered from the novels. It's the elements focusing on Curze and Vulkan that predominate there but putting them aside as not really suitable for campaign coverage, you have:

• The Underworld War (with a zone mortalis twist)
• The Shadow Crusade (Armatura and Nuceria, along with a relatively open arena for FW to do a battle or two of their own)
• Imperium Secundus (the Lion's actions from Angels of Caliban and then the battle at the Pharos, followed by some fresh stuff by FW)
• The events of Ruinstorm (maybe? Not read it but sounds like it could be mini-Signus again, for better or for worse)

Pretty sure any one of those is a third to half a book. Do, say, the first two with more Ruinstorm stuff and a focus on the increasingly chaotic World Eaters and Word Bearers.

 

On top of that, as you say, there's a lot of room for FW to slot in events of their own. Maybe they could pick up a few threads from Tempest, like the Nemesis chapter or House Vornherr or Guilliman's warp-research division in Malevolence.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Sandlemad

[marshal seanisi]

After book 9 another "conquest" style book is needed.  It's a great stop gap to clean up a lot of different issues and a great opportunity to add a bunch of characters from all the different novels. After all, HH is a realy narative gaming system. Why not add as many unique charachters as possible? 

 

Tallarn would be a great addition if done correctly. Maybe even combining it with Beta Garmin.

 

I think FW is starting to get anxious for a push toward the Siege. They could probably do a 3 book trilogy and have the opportunity to introduce all of the daemon primarchs.

[Purge the Daemon]

After book 9 another "conquest" style book is needed. It's a great stop gap to clean up a lot of different issues and a great opportunity to add a bunch of characters from all the different novels. After all, HH is a realy narative gaming system. Why not add as many unique charachters as possible?

 

Tallarn would be a great addition if done correctly. Maybe even combining it with Beta Garmin.

 

I think FW is starting to get anxious for a push toward the Siege. They could probably do a 3 book trilogy and have the opportunity to introduce all of the daemon primarchs.

The only issue is then they need to sculpt a bunch of single characters which is very time consuming.

 

They've said they want another 10 books so I dont think they are in any rush towards the Siege which is see as a 3 book adventure same as istavan. That still leaves 7 books before then lot of big battles and I really hope to see mars I want to see kelbor hal badly.

 

Tallarn and beta garmon for sure have to happen could be 1 or 2 books but maybe the beta garmon book is the AT black book for it very possibly since that is technically hh series now to.

[Plaguecaster]

^^^^^^^

Not like they’ve bothered making actual models for a good number of characters yet even though they have had rules for ages could easily make some more characters but not actually do any official model for them

Edited April 24, 2019 by Plaguecaster

[bluntblade]

Very true. I don't expect we'll see Crysos Moturg and Shabran Dahr, and going further back most of the characters given names and rules in the Badab War never got models either.

[Taliesin]

Personally if I could choose I would definitely vote for a Mars book. That is the book I have been hoping they would get to after other crucial stuff they needed to do, such as Inferno and Malevolence. I would be more interested in Mars than Thramas Crusade but I get of course that Dark Angels deserve coverage as well.

 

I think a Mars book could be tremendous, very interesting. It could go into depth on history and historical developments as well. I am glad that book 9 will cover Dark Mechanicum already.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Thinking about it some more, really seems like a good moment for them to start the Siege of Terra black books series.

Now that the novels have started there is real momentum for it and it feels suitable.

 

That aside though.... really want them to do the Mars book.

[rendingon1+]

Would agree with you if Bligh was still with us. Unfortuntely Malovelence set a precedence in the series with it's crappy lore and unimaginative, last-moment written, lame rules. My hopes for Book VIII are very low and I don't think any further black book will be as magical as 1-7.

[carlisimo]

I liked Malevolence, except maybe the style of the prose. But I wouldn’t want FW to jump to the Siege. They’d only get one book out before Black Library wraps up its series, if any, and it wouldn’t be enough to cover all of the changes in the Traitor Legions.

 

I’m also hesitant to get to the Siege of Terra because I think it’ll look more like 40k than 30k and that makes me unjustifiably uneasy. I prefer the idea of 10 years of mid-Heresy black books.

[rendingon1+]

Ok, I won't argue on tastes since different people need different things. I for one prefere rules that actully make sense and were not made overnight and fluff that was made by people who actually care.

As for the FW Siege, personally I can't see that happening even in the next decade, considering the tempo of releases and a fact we were also promised updated red books for Legions after DA drop. And since it takes literally forever for them to do anything + a sad truth that suprise LCTB combined with hardcore prices slowly erode the fanbase I have a feeling that HH series will end before the Siege.

[bluntblade]

I really have some issues with Malevolence beyond the prose - partly to do with canon conflict with Scars and its lack of finesse in hyping of the BA, but also because it failed to move the Heresy narrative forward.

 

Inferno stepping back is OK, as it's that iconic, but the spread of Chaos seemed to me like a great chance to plunge into the middle of the Heresy. We could have seen the White Scars running riot, only to be confronted by the Warp-tainted Traitors. I'm less certain of what could have happened with the BA, but I'm sure some sort of event could have come after Signus.

 

But the upshot is that we're still only a few years, the leaps in Retribution notwithstanding. I would really like to see Thramas, as by and large it's something where FW are free to play without bumping up against or breaking the lines set by BL output.

[Marshal Rohr]

Ok, I won't argue on tastes since different people need different things. I for one prefere rules that actully make sense and were not made overnight and fluff that was made by people who actually care.

As for the FW Siege, personally I can't see that happening even in the next decade, considering the tempo of releases and a fact we were also promised updated red books for Legions after DA drop. And since it takes literally forever for them to do anything + a sad truth that suprise LCTB combined with hardcore prices slowly erode the fanbase I have a feeling that HH series will end before the Siege.

You can’t erode a fan base that used to take models and convert them into these things and make up their own rules for them. They’ll just do that anyway. The 40k carpetbaggers left with 8th. If the remaining people dip out and just leave the core of the hardcore heresy players that were there before the Black Books absolutely nothing is lost. Instagram will still blow up with amazing conversions. There will still be 30k events. If GW cancelled the entire Heresy line tmrw, ten years from now recasters would keep the flame going the way they’ve developed and produced an entire range of epic scale legion models. If anything the lack of support from GW let’s the real fans continue on without the nail biting about what book is next. Edited July 12, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Majorbookworm]

Quite frankly I have no expectations for further Black Book releases beyond 9, and even that's only because if they didn't finish the legions then angry DA players would loot and burn their offices (and probably half of Nottingham into the bargain, no mercy, no forgiveness and all that jazz). Hopefully FW can prove me wrong here.

[Taliesin]

But they will do book 9, and it was almost finished recenty, so that is pretyy much a lock for the Weekender.

 

Question still is, what do they turn to next, but no hints so far.

 

Thought Malevolence was a great tome myself.

[rendingon1+]

 

Ok, I won't argue on tastes since different people need different things. I for one prefere rules that actully make sense and were not made overnight and fluff that was made by people who actually care.

As for the FW Siege, personally I can't see that happening even in the next decade, considering the tempo of releases and a fact we were also promised updated red books for Legions after DA drop. And since it takes literally forever for them to do anything + a sad truth that suprise LCTB combined with hardcore prices slowly erode the fanbase I have a feeling that HH series will end before the Siege.

You can’t erode a fan base that used to take models and convert them into these things and make up their own rules for them. They’ll just do that anyway. The 40k carpetbaggers left with 8th. If the remaining people dip out and just leave the core of the hardcore heresy players that were there before the Black Books absolutely nothing is lost. Instagram will still blow up with amazing conversions. There will still be 30k events. If GW cancelled the entire Heresy line tmrw, ten years from now recasters would keep the flame going the way they’ve developed and produced an entire range of epic scale legion models. If anything the lack of support from GW let’s the real fans continue on without the nail biting about what book is next.

 

Marshal I'm not talking about die hard fans of heresy you mentioned. Hell, we're still playing Mordheim and though headcount in our group waxed and waned throughout the years there are alwys at least 5 people who are active However every society needs new blood from time to time  and the problem is that compared to Mordheim HH is extreme when it takes to time, money and commitment. And my HH group is kind of picky when it comes to new blood.

Don't get me wrong I love HH concept, it's the present execution I'm worried about. For me it is a safe haven from the... horrors of the 41st millenium and I wish it would prosper. In fact when I want to read something HH I take Black Book not Black Library, hehe. Unfortunately Malevolence is the only one I know I won't be returning to. I didn't even finish it. So I'm afraid that without Bligh genius, series will degrade even further.

 

Thought Malevolence was a great tome myself.

Ok, would you tell me what was so great about it?

And I'll tell you why I think it was not.

Edited July 12, 2019 by rendingon1+

[Marshal Rohr]

I thought Malevolence was a great first outing for Neil and Anuj because they are still trying to establish themselves. I enjoyed seeing a full legion deployment dissected at Signus, and across a single star system in Chondax. The minutiae was less important to me than the broader strokes, and I think they captured the broad strokes really well. For instance the Angels dividing into three salients, moving to capture places based on geography. I also thought the bit about the defending against demons in the night was cool. The Daemons of the Ruinstorm list is hands down a perfect example of the strengths of army lists over datafaxes. The lack of color profiles wasn’t awesome, but we can’t attribute that to Alan’s passing. That’s the book designers and artists. The language had a tonal shift, but that was inevitable. ADB and Chris Wraight have different tones for their Custodes, and both are good and compliment each other. Overall my point is I’m willing to give the new team time to grow. I think Neil and Anuj love the Heresy as much as Alan did. Alan was a true talent and gifted creative. He was well educated and I think deep down he knew what people wanted more than they could articulate themselves, but that isn’t something that is natural for most people. When I think back to his Imperial Armor work I’m astounded how in each book with remarkably different enemies and protagonists he always hit the beats I cared about most AND he hit different beats for other people who don’t care about the things I care about. That’s a rare gift.

 

If you explain what you don’t like about Malevolence lore wise or rules wise I will try to show you different contexts in which to think about those things that might change your mind. It might not. No hard feelings if it doesn’t. Obviously your disappointment comes from love and not hate which is entirely valid.