Brandon Grant (LVO winner) Pure 2k guard list - wins again!

[GuardDaddy]

Brandon has adapted his Knight and Guard list that won LVO into a pure guard list.

 

I'll share it here for discussion as it just went 5-0 winning the Silicon Valley Smash ITC GT in the the US.

 

What do people think?

Why does it work?

 

Catachan Battalion

Emperors Blade Assault Company (Vigilus)

 

 

HQ:

Straken

Company Commader (no upgrades)

 

Troops:

3 Infantry Squads (no upgrades)

 

Transports (added - sorry I missed off originally)

3x Chimera - 2xHeavy Flamer

 

-----

 

Catachan Battalion

Emperors Fist Tank Company (Vigilus)

 

HQ:

Tank Commander - Battle Cannon, Stubber, 2x plasma Cannons, Heavy bolter

Tank Commander - Battle Cannon, 2x plasma Cannons, Heavy bolter

 

Troops:

3 Infantry Squads (no upgrades)

 

----

Catachan Battalion

Emperors Wrath Artillery Company (Vigilus)

 

HQ:

Company Commander (no upgrades)

Tank Commander - Battle Cannon, 2x plasma Cannons, Lascannon

 

Troops:

3 Infantry Squads (no upgrades)

 

Elites:

9 Bullgryns - 5 Slab/4 Brute shield - Mauls

Astropath - laspistol

Priest (no upgrades

 

Heavy Support:

Wyvern

Basilisk

[sairence]

What's the points on that? Definitely less than 2k. The Assault Comapny without Chimeras looks odd. Is there transports missing or does it make use of a specific strategem?

[wulfgar hammerfist]

I'm pretty sure he ran 3 chimeras with double heavy flamers as well. I haven't seen the list but it was mentioned on a podcast I listen to.

[Wassa]

No relic battle cannon?

[Captain_Krash]

Looking at this list I have no idea how he went 5-0...something must be missing here. Were his match ups non competitive list lol?

 

Any list with a knight would chew this up piece meal...he must have gotten really lucky with match ups.

 

I'm sort of baffled

 

Krash

[GuardDaddy]

Flamer Chimera's missed off by me originally - apologies.

[GuardDaddy]

I can't find any footage or report of the games. Frontline podcast talks about it though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGRPvLd9uAk&t=3861s

 

I believe the Bullgryn are the 'superheavy' equivalent at nearly 400pts. Boosted by priest. They smash up most things.

 

Objective control can by done by Chimera that are fast, and take shooting to remove by anti vehicle weapons which leaves tank commanders free to shoot for a couple of turns. Even if popped they drop troops onto objective. Flamers good against flyers like eldar bikes etc.

 

Statagem for artillery boost basilisk or wyvern.

 

Infantry can pile forwards for board control.

 

podcast states final was v tau and the entire Tau army shot into bullgryn but didn't kill them all. This gave Guard extra round of shooting and they dominated the board scoring objectives.

 

I don't know what (if any) relics were used.

[HallofStovokor]

Well that explains why he won. The bullgryns were a distraction carnifex and the Tau player fell for it. That is to say, that explains how a pure guard army won. Brandon Grant is always a top competitor.

[Hoots]

well i've just played two games against ad mech with his previous list and got curb stopped both times, I'm no tactical genius but found that without first turn the list was decimated instantly.  The major improvement I see in this list is the three chimeras to protect at least some of your troops. 

 

Anyone done any math hammer on how the leman russ's stack up compared to the castellan?

 

Cheers 

[HallofStovokor]

well i've just played two games against ad mech with his previous list and got curb stopped both times, I'm no tactical genius but found that without first turn the list was decimated instantly. The major improvement I see in this list is the three chimeras to protect at least some of your troops.

 

Anyone done any math hammer on how the leman russ's stack up compared to the castellan?

 

Cheers

A tank commander with the relic battle cannon, lascannon and plasma cannons are expected to get around wounds against a castellan with a 3++. Here's the math w/o rerolls:

 

Battle cannon (relic) 6×.67×.5×.32×3=1.92

Lascannon 1×.67×.67×.32×3.5=.5

Plasma cannons (overcharged) 3×.67×.5×.32×2=.64

 

This gets a little better when rerolls are applied, but not enough to ever make the castellan a target worth shooting.

[Hoots]

 

well i've just played two games against ad mech with his previous list and got curb stopped both times, I'm no tactical genius but found that without first turn the list was decimated instantly. The major improvement I see in this list is the three chimeras to protect at least some of your troops.

 

Anyone done any math hammer on how the leman russ's stack up compared to the castellan?

 

Cheers

A tank commander with the relic battle cannon, lascannon and plasma cannons are expected to get around wounds against a castellan with a 3++. Here's the math w/o rerolls:

 

Battle cannon (relic) 6×.67×.5×.32×3=1.92

Lascannon 1×.67×.67×.32×3.5=.5

Plasma cannons (overcharged) 3×.67×.5×.32×2=.64

 

This gets a little better when rerolls are applied, but not enough to ever make the castellan a target worth shooting.

 

 

Hello and thanks  Hallofstovokor, however I was meaning a comparison between the output of the Castellan vs the output of the leman russes. 

 

As i said before I'm very new to guard and decided to give my friends very powerful mechanicus army a fight using Brandon Grants former list which contained a castellan knight.

my opponent pretty much ignored it and wreaked everything else in the force (apart from a the wyverns) by turn three in both games.  The knight showed it could put out some serious damage (but as I was playing against a stygies the -1 to hit, higher than normal toughness and 5++ saves meant that I just wasn't able to do enough damage with just the knight; and he wasnt supported as my opponent got first turn in both games and concentrated on the hellhounds, and bullgryn. 

 

By my turn one the knight was the only weapon system i had that could deal with the 12 breachers, 2 castellan robots and 3 onagers that my guardsmen couldn't deal with by themselves; but it was too much.

 

So i'm interested in knowing if the 3x tank commanders would do better? 

 

Cheers

Hoots

[Hoots]

Well the new FAQ has put a nail in the coffin for the castellan list as it would require me to find 100pts to make changes.

 

I've only owned the thing for two weeks *it seems everything i buy GW nef a few weeks later* my opponent last weekend actually laughed as he joked that the knight would be getting nerfed cause i'd bought one. Then less than twenty four hours later... 

 

So I apologies, the knight changes were probably my fault. 

 

I'd still like to know the difference between the knight castellan and three tank commanders - especially if one is pask and one has the relic battlecannon?

 

Thanks

 

p.s. anyone want an almost assembled knight lol 

 

Hoots 

[HallofStovokor]

Castellan has access to a 4++ invulnerable save, a volcano lance, a 4 shoulder mounted cannons, shield breaker missiles (ignores line of sight, can target characters, ignores invulnerable saves), has 24 wounds and can be equipped with cawl's wrath relic plasma cannon. It's also a beast in melee and hitson 3s in both melee and shooting.

 

Pask hits on 2s in shooting, hit on 6s in melee, can take any codex leman russ variant and can issue 2 orders. Ordinary tank commander can issue 1 orders, hits on 3s in shooting, hits on 6s in melee, can take a relic battle cannon, and uses any codex leman russ variant. Both pask and tank commanders have 3+ armor save and no invulnerable save. 3 tank commanders have more guns, but are generally less survivable than a single knight. They will generally cost less than a castellan now. The nerf to the castellan made guard tanks viable again.

[sairence]

Tank Commanders have been viable again since the last CA dropped their points.

 

In your comparison you should also consider that 3 Leman Russes have 12 wounds more than a Castellan. Also, doesn't the Castellan hit on 4s in melee and generally compares fairly badly there compared to other Knights?

[HallofStovokor]

Tank Commanders have been viable again since the last CA dropped their points.

 

In your comparison you should also consider that 3 Leman Russes have 12 wounds more than a Castellan. Also, doesn't the Castellan hit on 4s in melee and generally compares fairly badly there compared to other Knights?

Good point about the wounds. I'm pretty sure that castellans hit on 3s in combat with their stomp attacks.

[THUNDERFISTS]

Wow, I need to buy even more Catachans now. 

[mertbl]

4s

 

 

 

Tank Commanders have been viable again since the last CA dropped their points.

 

In your comparison you should also consider that 3 Leman Russes have 12 wounds more than a Castellan. Also, doesn't the Castellan hit on 4s in melee and generally compares fairly badly there compared to other Knights?

Good point about the wounds. I'm pretty sure that castellans hit on 3s in combat with their stomp attacks.

[FelipeFlops]

Unless its been changed a Castellan has WS4+ and 28 Wounds not 24 like other knights.

[Captain_Krash]

I feel like the list/tourney he was playing in basically just got really lucky on match ups/first turns. I don't see how a properly played Eldar/Dark Eldar (Pre FAQ) army couldn't cut this list in half piecemeal. Or even a knight list..

 

Krash

[Hoots]

Has anyone had much success rocking the two heavy flamer chimera setup?  Whilst it looks good on paper I think that most opponents will take out or keep away from any chimeras that might feel inclined to use the overwatch strat, after all they just have to keep 8" away from the tank and it effectively has no overwatch.   

 

I've been playing around with this list and trying to adapt it to the models in my collection (yeah I don't have enough guard for 90 lasgun totting infantrymen..... Yet) 

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment ++

 

Regimental Doctrine:Regiment: Catachan for all units

Vigilus Defiant [-1CP]:Emperor's Blade Assault Company

 

+ HQ +

Colonel 'Iron Hand' Straken 

Company Commander Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Emperor's Blade

 

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad: Emperor's Blade; 9x Guardsman; Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

Infantry Squad: Emperor's Blade; 9x Guardsman; Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

Infantry Squad: Emperor's Blade; 9x Guardsman; Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

 

+ Elites +

Astropath: Laspistol, Psychic Barrier

Astropath: Laspistol, Nightshroud

Bullgryns: 4x Bullgryn Maul, Slabshield; 4x Brute Shield, Bullgryn Maul; Bullgryn Bone 'ead: Bullgryn Maul, Slabshield

Ministorum Priest:  Chainsword, Laspistol

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chimera: Emperor's Blade, Heavy Flamer, Multi-laser

Chimera: Emperor's Blade, Heavy Flamer, Multi-laser

Chimera: Emperor's Blade, Heavy Flamer, Multi-laser

 

++ Battalion Detachment ++

 

Vigilus Defiant [-1CP]: Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company

 

+ HQ +

Company Commander: Chainsword, Display Astra Militarum Orders, Emperor's Wrath, Laspistol, Master of Command, Relic: Kurov's Aquila, Warlord

Lord Commissar: Bolt pistol, Power sword

 

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad: 7x Guardsman; Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar; Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad: 7x Guardsman; Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar; Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad: 7x Guardsman; Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar; Sergeant: Laspistol

 

+ Heavy Support +

Wyverns: Emperor's Wrath; Heavy Bolter

Wyverns: Emperor's Wrath; Heavy Bolter

 

++ Battalion Detachment ++

 

Imperial Commander's Armoury [-1CP]: 1 additional Heirloom of Conquest

Vigilus Defiant [-1CP]: Emperor's Fist Tank Company

 

+ HQ +

Tank Commander: Augur array, Emperor's Fist, Heavy Bolter, Plasma Cannons, Storm Bolter; Turret-mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon

Tank Commander: Augur array, Emperor's Fist, Lascannon, Relic (Emperor's Fist): Hammer of Sunderance, Storm Bolter

 

 

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad: 8x Guardsman; Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Grenade Launcher; Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad: 8x Guardsman; Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Grenade Launcher; Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad: 8x Guardsman; Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Grenade Launcher; Sergeant: Laspistol

 

+ Heavy Support +

Leman Russ Battle Tank: Emperor's Fist; Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter

 

++ Total: [126 PL, 14CP (at turn one), 2000pts] ++

[HallofStovokor]

Has anyone had much success rocking the two heavy flamer chimera setup? Whilst it looks good on paper I think that most opponents will take out or keep away from any chimeras that might feel inclined to use the overwatch strat, after all they just have to keep 8" away from the tank and it effectively has no overwatch

Not for some time. I had a tactic of getting my veterans into rapid fire range with 2 plasma guns and a meltagun, then use the heavy flamers to get a wound and trigger overlapping fields of fire for my vets. It worked for a little while until my local game store's meta adapted to the awkward tactic. After that the chimera became practically unplayable.

[Hoots]

 

Has anyone had much success rocking the two heavy flamer chimera setup? Whilst it looks good on paper I think that most opponents will take out or keep away from any chimeras that might feel inclined to use the overwatch strat, after all they just have to keep 8" away from the tank and it effectively has no overwatch

Not for some time. I had a tactic of getting my veterans into rapid fire range with 2 plasma guns and a meltagun, then use the heavy flamers to get a wound and trigger overlapping fields of fire for my vets. It worked for a little while until my local game store's meta adapted to the awkward tactic. After that the chimera became practically unplayable.

 

 

HI Hallofstovokor; hmm interesting was that before the new strats from Vigilus? 

I also struggle to see how this army is so powerful?

the strategies for the assault company and the tank company are all really situational and a good opponent shouldn't be getting caught out too much by them.

 

For instance the assault company's rapid redeploy sounds kind of fun but certainly isn't very powerful (allowing one squad of guardsmen to fire and charge after the vehicle moved) and as you can only use a strat once per phase your not going to be hopping all three squads of guardsmen out of chimeras after moving.

 

I'm then confused with the points spent on all the flamers for the three chimeras, I suppose you could try to bubble wrap the tanks a little before you shoot with the ten guardsmen in the hope that if some survive you can trigger the other strat allowing one of the chimeras to fire supporting overwatch, but with only 8"  range I find it hard to believe that an opponent wouldn't just carefully place models to stay outside of the flamer range whilst maximizing their charge range on another target.  In addition if they wipe out the infantry or choose to target one of the other chimeras then you can't play the mechanised support strat at all.

 

Isn't it weird the things that seem to work at tournaments?

 

Cheers

Hoots 

[HallofStovokor]

It was before vigilus. I haven't used my chimera for months, outside of a special vigilus mission that requires a non-flier transport. It was a technique for killing a single vehicle, but I realized that it required a lot of points to accomplish and if they noticed the chimera, it was pretty easily countered. The Emperor's Blade is super situational, so I don't use it.

 

On the other hand, I must disagree about Emperor's Fist. It's got the best relic out of the vigilus defiant book (flat 3 damage battle cannon) and while I agree that the phalanx stratagem is crap, unyielding advance might be incredibly powerful. As you know, the demolisher has the most powerful gun of any tank variant, but the range sucks. With unyielding advance, you can advance your demolisher tank commander. Give him the order to reroll 1s and still double shoot the main gun with 3+ BS (yes the errata for vigilus defiant specifically says that you can do that). Wrath is still the best specialist detachment, but Fist is a must just for the relic.

[Hoots]

I agree about the tank company strats I think I meant that they are situational in that many people will be used to playing their LRs using grinding advance to shoot twice so they might not feel the need for this strategy much (although it's obviously very useful as you've pointed out). I've included all three company variants in the list still because I think that for 1CP the ability to be able to drop off a unit from the assault company (who can then shoot or hide in cover on an objective) might be useful. 

 

Thanks for the advice it has made me rethink my last list and I have modified it a little; I don't have three leman russes and wanted to fit in more of the units that I have just bought (literally sold a ton of stuff and bought a new AM army last month which now doesn't work due to the changes in points to the castellan).  

 

I am going to try the demolisher tank commander variant moving him up the board with the support of the three chimeras, 6 infantry squads and bullgryn.  Most of the characters ride in the chimeras, jumping out to support when needed (I do like the idea of using both astropaths on the demolisher to make it more survivable (nightshroud and psychic barrier)

.

The other tank commander sits back with the relic battle cannon and is supported by 6 missile teams, the wyverns and three more infantry squads with mortars.

I took the flamers off the chimeras I just couldn't see them making their points back and I felt that I was more likely to make use of the support strategy if the chimeras had their regular weapons  as they aren't limited to 8" range and the auto hit of the flamers is slightly negated by the strat making overwatch hiton 4+.  I also fitted in a lord commissar and some grenade launchers and plasmaguns on the infantry squads to give them a little more oomph. 

 

Thanks again for the help, I've posted my reworked list on a new thread, feedback would be appreciated cheers guys

 

Hoots 

[librisrouge]

On the other hand, I must disagree about Emperor's Fist. It's got the best relic out of the vigilus defiant book (flat 3 damage battle cannon) and while I agree that the phalanx stratagem is crap, unyielding advance might be incredibly powerful. 

While I'd agree with the idea that phalanx isn't the best strategem, it does have a place in an IG army, especially a LR tank heavy one. It can be ridiculously useful for a counter charge against certain targets. I had a problem with a smash captain once that wouldn't stop making saves. It had four wounds left and was in my deployment zone. I didn't want to give it another turn so I used phalanx and charged it with 3 russ, one of which was going to Crush Them! in case he survived. Two of them succeeded in the 4+ roll and did exactly the 4 mortal wounds needed to finish him off. It was kinda nice. Not something you'd plan for but a useful tool to be able to pull out in certain situations.