Prot Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 I have a few tournaments lined up. I haven’t decided at all on which army to take. The last ITC specific GT I went to I got 6 th with a ‘funsy’ pure Deathguard list. The only Space Marine player was about 25th ( middle of the pack) and was Raven Guard. I’ve started play testing some stronger, unique list ideas from a few different armies I own. The easiest I can come up with is my AdMech. I’ve made a very punishing list that is really boring to play against. ( so I don’t play it much against one of my favourite play groups) The Ultramarines are up there with the most challenging armies I own ( probably as difficult as chaos). What I’m really uncertain about right now is the actual competitive nature of Guilliman. Right now I’m very rusty with him. I would need lots of practice but I’m not sure he’s worth it. I know in everyday games against non super competitive players, he’s instantly amazing...so are the other Primarchs or even a Knight. But in well practiced groups these units really aren’t that great anymore. Add the pile of anti character units and tactics out there and I feel his one advantage ( low wound count) can only be off set a bit by Victrix Guard. What do you guys think? What are you seeing at least cal tournies? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 He's the only thing that makes Ultras capable of reaching past middle of the pack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5303574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted April 29, 2019 Share Posted April 29, 2019 Lemondip why ? Prot let’s make a list of auto take units. Here are some of my favorite go to units: Calgar/Gman Tiggy DevCents Veteran Intercessors Infiltrators Hellblasters Plasma Inceptors Sternguard in Rhino Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5303648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 29, 2019 Share Posted April 29, 2019 I'm getting some mileage out of Vanguard Veterans with plenty of Storm Shields. You need decent numbers of course and if you can get Tigurius on them you'll be almost obnoxious. I'm having some results out of T8 vehicles such as Ironclad and Might of Heroes too. But again that's a more aggressive list and most people don't like to play an army that doesn't just sit there lol. Consider Centurions! Even when I've played awful and made mistakes they've really helped me out. I'm using Heavy Bolters and Hurricane Bolters in a list where folk want to hurt those Storm Shields Vanguard so they aren't the easy unit to eliminate either. I consider Dreadnoughts as our most cost effective anti tank. Even regular ones, instead of Venerables, only cost 120pts for essentially 2 Lascannons and a Missile Launcher is actually pretty good. Taking Forgeworld into account then the Leviathan is pretty substantial. With Tigurius and a Techmarine you'll give enemies fits of rage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5303740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
derLumpi Posted April 29, 2019 Share Posted April 29, 2019 What about bikes? With the beta rule for bolters are they not worth it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5303773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted April 29, 2019 Author Share Posted April 29, 2019 I'm getting some mileage out of Vanguard Veterans with plenty of Storm Shields. You need decent numbers of course and if you can get Tigurius on them you'll be almost obnoxious. I'm having some results out of T8 vehicles such as Ironclad and Might of Heroes too. But again that's a more aggressive list and most people don't like to play an army that doesn't just sit there lol. Consider Centurions! Even when I've played awful and made mistakes they've really helped me out. I'm using Heavy Bolters and Hurricane Bolters in a list where folk want to hurt those Storm Shields Vanguard so they aren't the easy unit to eliminate either. I consider Dreadnoughts as our most cost effective anti tank. Even regular ones, instead of Venerables, only cost 120pts for essentially 2 Lascannons and a Missile Launcher is actually pretty good. Taking Forgeworld into account then the Leviathan is pretty substantial. With Tigurius and a Techmarine you'll give enemies fits of rage. I do like typical dreads. It has worked fine with my TFC lists. (I have dual TFC's in some lists). I know the Forgeworld Levi and Deredeo is big right now... I just have trouble accessing those models for tournament play and I'm really not well versed in playing that type of list right now. That's kind of why I'm trying to stick with codex ideas, just to start. :) Lemondip why ? Prot let’s make a list of auto take units. Here are some of my favorite go to units: Calgar/Gman Tiggy DevCents Veteran Intercessors Infiltrators Hellblasters Plasma Inceptors Sternguard in Rhino My list is very similar, but I'm starting to think about Eliminators just because of Vindicares and to a lesser degree... Victrix. Sternguard in a Rhino is something I haven't used in a long time. Also really starting to use a Thunderfire a lot. Ever since the last Chapter Approved drop I've been finding I need something to attack hidden stuff... Tau drones, hive guard, Dark reapers, etc. It's cheap enough now that I've been using this weird tri-fecta… I don't know if it's valid in hardcore play though: - Repulsor (hides Primaris units in T1) - Landraider (hides marine units in T1) - TFC behind those tanks, repairs which ever one typically didn't get Tiggy's -1 to hit ability. My initial testing with Infiltrators was poor. I got pretty badly owned but that was just one game. I think with GSC getting more notoriety I expect to see more and the FAQ clarifies their anti-deploy field in play against GSC. What about bikes? With the beta rule for bolters are they not worth it? Bikes are good, and they're guaranteed to be fast... with a 6" advance. I used them a lot at the start of 8th but the issue I have with them is so many things in the typical Marine army is bolter-esque in design it's hard to justify more. They are good though, but I have always liked scout bikers more ,just for the Mortal Wound strat (Trip Mines). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5304018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 29, 2019 Share Posted April 29, 2019 I can't tell you how important are Vitrix Guard. Yesterday my opponent said they basically shut down his Vindicare. On that note I recommend keeping 85 points free so you can select an assassin to tasty choice. I was running the following list yesterday: Calgar Tiggy Techmarine (combi-plas + ToT) Apothecary Vitrix Honor Guard 2x 5 man Intercessor 2x 6 man Infiltrator 1x 5 man Scout 5x Plasma Inceptor 6x Hellblaster 3x Assault Centurion (meltas & hurricane bolters) Redemptor (onslaught cannons) Vindicare I use the Indomintus Crusader detachment from Vigilus - really love it over here . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5304240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted April 30, 2019 Author Share Posted April 30, 2019 I can't tell you how important are Vitrix Guard. Yesterday my opponent said they basically shut down his Vindicare. On that note I recommend keeping 85 points free so you can select an assassin to tasty choice. I was running the following list yesterday: Calgar Tiggy Techmarine (combi-plas + ToT) Apothecary Vitrix Honor Guard 2x 5 man Intercessor 2x 6 man Infiltrator 1x 5 man Scout 5x Plasma Inceptor 6x Hellblaster 3x Assault Centurion (meltas & hurricane bolters) Redemptor (onslaught cannons) Vindicare I use the Indomintus Crusader detachment from Vigilus - really love it over here . I've been a huge advocate of the Victrix Guard since day one and took some flak for it. They are without a doubt, mandatory in a competitive meta. Every release it seems GW is insistent on reducing hero hammer. True Story: One week ago, turn 1. My Black Legion vs. Genestealer Cult: I lose a 4 wound psyker in one pull of the trigger. All told I lost 24 Mortal wounds from that single shot. It's actually ridiculous. I started the game 24 wounds in the hole from one shot on turn 1. Tigurius is a smaller model but there are a lot of mandatory characters with any marine based army. I've had Calgar take on things a lot bigger than him just because I had the Victrix. I don't really tell a lot of people about that mechanism and how it empowers the army overall. A lot of people will kind of shrug at my use of them until they play against it. In honesty there are games where they just don't come into being a huge factor, but they're one of those units that can save you a game when they come into need. Now with the almost... dare I say overpowering (?) Assassin rules it just helps stuff like Astra and Tau even more, and hurts marine armies with characters on their giant bases.... I feel it's ridiculous really, but it's the price we pay I guess. (Meanwhile there's a 2" min-psyker hiding behind a tread giving a superheavy tank a 2+ save on the other side of the table.) I've been playing the Indomnitus Crusaders since release as well, and I admit at first I wasn't too keen on it. But over time it really won me over... that said I always have at least 1 x 10 man squad. 40 Shots is just such an eye opener for opponents. I like your inclusion of 5 Plasma Inceptors. I usually only use 3 since that's all I own, but I'm starting to think I like them better than Hellblasters the more I use them over the past year. I haven't used Guilliman in forever. Last night I played a crazy hard GSC list again (not with Ultra's) and it reminded me how crazy hard board control is against GSC and I worry about not having enough capability to push back against an army like that. Although GSC is a 'scalpel' type army, it's super effective in the right hands and I think it's getting more popular here in the tournament scene. This in part is why I've been using the Repulsor in my lists. It's my security blanket, reducing charges, leaving CC, shooting, unloading contents, etc. It's a harder foot print to surround entirely as well. I just can't seem to find the points to get everything I want into the list! lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5304576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 I’d love to use a Repulsor again now that the Castellan won’t be nearly as popular. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5304597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted April 30, 2019 Author Share Posted April 30, 2019 I’d love to use a Repulsor again now that the Castellan won’t be nearly as popular. Very true. It got hit hard, and I think a lot of very competitive players saw the writing on the wall a moth or so ago and this is why we are seeing such an upsurge in Tau and Astra. Tau are absolutely smashing face right now so any list I write has to take massed drones/Trip-Tide into account. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5304622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamiel Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Are most of these Tau lists weak to massed bolt-rifle fire? Trip tide seems like it's not, but what are the rest of the lists like? I don't even remember the profile of drones off the top of my head because I haven't faced too much tau in 8th. I think they're toughness 4, 2 wounds, and have a 4+ save? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5304669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Eliminators can target those Drones first. Not a bad option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5304691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted April 30, 2019 Author Share Posted April 30, 2019 Eliminators can target those Drones first. Not a bad option. Yup, I've been taking them... a little pricey though. I am still using a TFC and it works great against Orks, so I'm kind of torn as I can't keep both in my lists if I'm going to test Guilliman. It's a hard call. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5304700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 A definite hard call. The Eliminators will do you better against Astra Millitarum and Genestealer Cult, likely Eldar too. The TFC will help more against Marines and Orks and Tyranids. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5304705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted April 30, 2019 Author Share Posted April 30, 2019 A definite hard call. The Eliminators will do you better against Astra Millitarum and Genestealer Cult, likely Eldar too. The TFC will help more against Marines and Orks and Tyranids. Well the TFC is actually quite usable against GSC too because they all spam Mortars (ridiculously good). You see a lot of Mortars in GSC tournie lists because they need to create holes in chaff to 'perfect ambush' you in the groin. It's really annoying.... On that point I played a very competitive GSC army last night. I did not play my Ultra's but Black Legion instead. I used almost pure Infantry and I had no idea what I was facing until nearly game time.... The game was one of the most bare knuckle punch fest, groin kick, knock outs I'd played in 8th. I was sure I'd lose when I lost nearly half of my army in T3. I did scrap back and did not turn it around until T5. The point is during this entire game I just kept thinking of my Ultra's... I could not see them winning this game. The way I build them, and with Guilliman I don't think I could protect him. He would be drowned in a sea of 5++/5+++ Genestealers or Rock drills, or those halfwits in wife beater tank tops with cement hammers.... incredible. There was no point where I could see winning that game. So I'm having a ton of trouble creating the list I feel would capture my favourite way to play UM's, but still be flexible enough for stuff like this. I've gotta figure out something and in part I think I have to figure out if Guilliman is in this test list, I have to figure out if the vehicles (any) are worth it. I used a lot of lists that had both 1 Landraider and 1 Repulsor to great effect (I know I posted some of these ideas in the 'landraider' thread). But that list won't work with Guilliman. I realize I'm a bit all over the place on this but seeing that GSC list in action I expect to see them at every tournie now (at least for a while). It's really made me think (I still can't believe I turned it around with Black Legion). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5304748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 What about a triple Battalion list? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5304774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 I am having some success with troop heavy army lists like I posted above. I feel like Veteran Intercessors and Infiltrators can some work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5304786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted April 30, 2019 Author Share Posted April 30, 2019 What about a triple Battalion list? I like the idea... just not sure it's plausible in a competitive environment? I mean very shooty, hard target lists would be an issue. Coming up with 9 troops, and Guilliman might be a massive compromise. I'm not sure though. To be honest I haven't really even used a dual Battalion with UM's. :) I am having some success with troop heavy army lists like I posted above. I feel like Veteran Intercessors and Infiltrators can some work. I definitely like Intercessors. But 6 squads? I don't know. I always use one squad of 10 but to go against an Astra type force I don't know how I get there and damage the tanks in time. (Thinking IG parking lot). I have one squad of Infiltrators. Lots of sniper scouts, but only one squad of bolter scouts. I will see what I can come up with. This just 'feels' like something that would be better as a Nurgle Daemon army where you are foot slogging 80 Plaguebearers, slinging psychic powers, and relying on your T5, -1 to hit, 5++/5+FnP 80 man squad. I mean that's the sort of massed infantry I've seen working. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5304790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 I have five troops - 2x veteran Intercessor (5 man), 2x Infiltrator (6 man) and one 5 man scout squad. I recommend give it a shot and see how it goes with something similar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5304793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted April 30, 2019 Author Share Posted April 30, 2019 I have five troops - 2x veteran Intercessor (5 man), 2x Infiltrator (6 man) and one 5 man scout squad. I recommend give it a shot and see how it goes with something similar. I may try that. It is right there for a dual Battalion in the making. My mistake might be just using my Shadowspear box set. Really the Helix is a waste. I really don't like him other than the model. :) If I break away from the box set and just proxy 6 Reivers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5304804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 What about a triple Battalion list? I like the idea... just not sure it's plausible in a competitive environment? I mean very shooty, hard target lists would be an issue. Coming up with 9 troops, and Guilliman might be a massive compromise. I'm not sure though. To be honest I haven't really even used a dual Battalion with UM's. It's a concept that's growing on me and certainly one I'm willing to explore at 2k from a BA point of view; 18 CPs mean I can do what I want and I can even find room for an Assassin with that much spare. I post the following on Morticon's "Road to the NCO" thread as he was gravitating towards the concept: It's looking like the triple Battalion is becoming the go-to for many lists (especially mono-Marines) http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355415-gt-win/?do=findComment&comment=5299461 The above mono-1kS list is similar to yours: lots of Troops, hard hitting HQs, and a spot of flavour thrown in. Whilst Morticon is looking at a Marine soup list that focuses on an all-out alpha strike (and thus, not relevant here besides background info and food for thought) the DG list was basically a Marine hoard list. What I found to be the take home points for Marines were nine Troops (i.e. Intercessors backed with Scouts), six hard hitting HQs (so Tigurius, three UM Smash Captains, whatever to buff the Intercessors/rest), and then some heavy lifting - perhaps Contemptor mortis with two twin lascannons? Stuff like that (there's also the Wisdom of the Ancients buff there to throw in). On a competitive level it's possible and given the success of Intercessor and Repulsor hoard, it's worth consideration imo Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5304808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 Well it does make sense. Intercessors are a solid choice to capture objectives, you can even splash in some Scouts or Infiltrators for flexibility and since Marines are somewhat of a herohammer faction currently having 6 HQ choices doesn't really hurt either. The only problem would be anti-tank as with three Battalions á 1 Smash Captain, 1 Vanguard Librarian (random choice, I just like this dude), 2x5 Intercessor and 1x5 Infiltrators you have barely 400p left in a 2k list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5304814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 I think it is good but for me I find our strats in general aren't all that great so amping a list for more CP may not be as good for smurfs as say Blood Angels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5304845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 I don't much recommend taking a horde of Marines really. It's not their staying power that is the issue, it's the killing power that you'll be sacrificing. I think a combined arms approach with a reasonable amount of bodies and a bunch of vehicles is the best approach. But I could be wrong :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5304846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 In the competitive there are not a lot of vehicles except for elven fliers and knights but of course this could all very well change soon . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355581-competitive-ultramarines-staying-within-the-codex/#findComment-5304880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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