Possessed versus Bloodletters

[techsoldaten]

Is there a situation where Possessed are better than Bloodletters? While unit-to-unit comparisons are not very useful, this one seems important.

 

I've been working through optimized versions of each of the specialist detachments from Vigilus Ablaze. Having a hard time coming up with something good for Daemonkin Ritualists. Trying to understand the situation where it makes more sense to take Possessed instead of Bloodletters.

 

The first concern is points. For around the same price as 20 Possessed, I can get 60 Bloodletters.

 

The second concern is delivery. For 6 CPs, I can deep strike 60 Bloodletters. For 20 Possessed, transport costs start at about the same as a unit of 7 Possessed.

 

The third concern is offense. The number of attacks per model averages out to about the same. Assuming the Bloodletters get the charge, the Strength is the same. Bloodletters have an additional point of AP.

 

The fourth concern is buffs. I've read the Possessed Uber-Unit thread, it seems to me, practically, the best they will usually have is Str 7 4+ invul rerolling 1s. And that only applies to the first unit, a second unit wouldn't get all those buffs the same turn. Whereas Bloodletters can get Str 6 / +1 attack +2 to hit pretty reliably and it applies to all units within Locus range.

 

The fifth concern is their battlefield role. Both units are there to kill MEQ and GEQ, and they may be able to kill something bigger with volume of attacks. But this requires a larger unit. Possessed unit size caps at 20, Bloodletter unit size caps out at 30.

 

Going back to the original question, what situation makes Possessed a better choice than Bloodletters? What is it they are there to counter, what advantage do you get from list building, what combination of buffs leads to them getting more work done on the tabletop? I just don't see how to optimize around them.

[Scourged]

I mean... Not much I could think to add that you haven't already worked out. Possessed have armor and better toughness, so there's that. So they're slightly more survivable. But as you said, for the cost the 'letters outnumber them 3:1, so that's probably a moot point.

 

Unless you're trying to do mono codex csm, I do believe bloodletters come out on top. Plus, bringing along a detachment of them unlocks all sorts of other daemon goodies. And will get you extra cp to fuel their deep strike.

[Panzer]

When you don't want to add a Daemon detachment I guess.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Or if you want to stay mono-god other than Khorne - for example, as my main army is Emperor's Children, a khorne daemon detachment is a bit out of place. :)

[Doom Herald]

At +1 Toughness and +1 Wound, Possessed are tougher and more survivable if they are forced to foot slog. They also benefit from CSM rules. That Uber Possessed thread exploded quickly and I haven't thought to catch up on all the posts, but off of the top of my head...

 

I plan on marching a 14 man NL NURGLE unit with a Dark Apostle, Sorcerer, and GP.

Between the Apostle, Sorcerer, and In Midnight Clad, they can have -3 to be shot. Make the Sorcerer CRIMSON SLAUGHTER to possibly add a further -1 to enemy units shooting. Prescience grants +1 to hit. Veterans of the Long War is still an option. You end up with a unit of possessed at a potential -4 to be hit in shooting, -1 to be hit in melee, +1 to hit (which means better DttFE odds) +1 to wound with S6, -3 enemy Ld (-4 with Icon, -6 If you make CS Sorcerer warlord with CS warlord trait), and that's before you deepstrike a Poxbringer in aura range for a bonus to S plus an extra damage on attack wounds of 6+, which is now 5+ after VotLW.

 

It's all situational.

[Panzer]

Night Lord Nurgle Possessed with psychic support must be a pretty scary sight in-universe. I mean more than Night Lords or Nurgle Marines or Possessed themselves already are lol

[techsoldaten]

At +1 Toughness and +1 Wound, Possessed are tougher and more survivable if they are forced to foot slog. They also benefit from CSM rules. That Uber Possessed thread exploded quickly and I haven't thought to catch up on all the posts, but off of the top of my head...

 

I plan on marching a 14 man NL NURGLE unit with a Dark Apostle, Sorcerer, and GP.

Between the Apostle, Sorcerer, and In Midnight Clad, they can have -3 to be shot. Make the Sorcerer CRIMSON SLAUGHTER to possibly add a further -1 to enemy units shooting. Prescience grants +1 to hit. Veterans of the Long War is still an option. You end up with a unit of possessed at a potential -4 to be hit in shooting, -1 to be hit in melee, +1 to hit (which means better DttFE odds) +1 to wound with S6, -3 enemy Ld (-4 with Icon, -6 If you make CS Sorcerer warlord with CS warlord trait), and that's before you deepstrike a Poxbringer in aura range for a bonus to S plus an extra damage on attack wounds of 6+, which is now 5+ after VotLW.

 

It's all situational.

 

Appreciate the detailed write up. I see why you would be enthusiastic about that unit / combo!

 

Help me understand a little better. In what situations do you expect this unit to excel? How do they outperform Bloodletters?

 

I get your point about marching up the board. Certainly there's the potential to get the enemy to waste a lot of shots. What is it about them that makes them the superior threat?

 

Armchair math for that unit + characters is about 700 points. That's the cost of 90 Bloodletters plus a Herald.

[Doom Herald]

A little over 600.

 

Really for me it's about survivability. After you throw the Bloodletters into the enemy, they are lower toughness, lower wound, lower Ld, no modifier to being hit in melee. If they don't outright destroy the unit they attacked, they take heavy casualties. Even if they do, they are left exposed to fire, to which they will sustain heavy casualties. Probably all casualties will force you to take higher casualties to morale. They hit and then largely they are spent.

 

The possessed in addition to higher survivability will be higher Strength with a plus to wound and their bonuses are not based on charging. So they remain a fighting force round 2 if needed and if they destroy the unit, they are still protected from most shooting. On top of that, -6 enemy Ld, when most things have around that much Ld basicly ensures that the enemy models slain will about double in morale or force the oponent to spend CP to pass.

 

Then you have the Characters themselves which will be adding to the death toll.

 

When they hit, they will hit hard, probably kill the unit and end up in the open again, virtually unshootable. On top of that, they will more easily kill elite units both because the higher Strength and to wound bonus and the fact that leadership hurts multi-wound units more.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

The fourth concern is buffs. I've read the Possessed Uber-Unit thread, it seems to me, practically, the best they will usually have is Str 7 4+ invul rerolling 1s. And that only applies to the first unit, a second unit wouldn't get all those buffs the same turn. Whereas Bloodletters can get Str 6 / +1 attack +2 to hit pretty reliably and it applies to all units within Locus range.

 

Cursed Earth is a radius, so multiple units of Possessed would benefit. 4++ for all of them. Str 6 for all units near a Greater Possessed + another 1 with Herald of appropriate god nearby. They can also all reroll 1's in a radius with Infernal Power, for hits and wounds and unmodified 6's cause a Mortal Wound in addition if near the Field Commander/Warlord.

 

Single unit buffs: Warp Time, Vessels For the Neverborn, Vets of the Long War, Weaver of Fates (Tzeentch, takes their save to 3++), Delightful Agonies (Slaanesh CSM, ignore wounds on 5+), Miasma of Pestilence (Nurgle,-1 to be hit), Prescience, various faction-specific stratagems. 

 

In particular, big units of Black Legion Possessed can get extra attacks from Merciless Fighters. 

 

Possessed beat out Bloodletters for durability, as they are tougher, have more wounds, and have access to far more defensive buffs. Offensively, Bloodletters are somewhat similar.

 

It is also possible to start Possessed on the table and rocket them forward with vehicle disembark + Warp Time + Advancing with Red Corsairs/Renegades and then charging:

 

12 inch typical deployment zone frontline + 3 inches for vehicle disembark + 7 inch move + D6 Advance + 7 inch Warp Time move + D6 Advance (see current FAQ), plus 2D6 charge, re-rollable with either Khorne Icon or Gaze of Fate (depending on mark and army comp)  and/or CP. With typical rolls, you end up covering about 40 inches of table, including the charge. Alpha Legion can also accomplish something similar without a vehicle via the 9 inch boost from Forward Operatives, though the range will be shorter because they can't Advance unless you have some means to add it (such as a Slaanesh Daemon Character from a Daemon detachment nearby for the extra Locus).

 

Not bad. Bloodletters have zero first turn charge potential if you're relying on Denizens + Banner of Blood.

 

However, most of the same stuff is possible with Berzerkers, at least offensively. Again, they're not as durable.

 

Tactically, I find that Possessed are far superior to Bloodletters as a counter-charge unit if the enemy is coming to you. They can weather a little fire, then lunge in and smash something that has just plowed into your lines...then use consolidation to launch themselves forward and take an offensive role against a weakened enemy. I do this often with Slaanesh Possessed in my Iron Warriors.

[techsoldaten]

 

 

 

The fourth concern is buffs. I've read the Possessed Uber-Unit thread, it seems to me, practically, the best they will usually have is Str 7 4+ invul rerolling 1s. And that only applies to the first unit, a second unit wouldn't get all those buffs the same turn. Whereas Bloodletters can get Str 6 / +1 attack +2 to hit pretty reliably and it applies to all units within Locus range.

 

Cursed Earth is a radius, so multiple units of Possessed would benefit. 4++ for all of them. Str 6 for all units near a Greater Possessed + another 1 with Herald of appropriate god nearby. They can also all reroll 1's in a radius with Infernal Power, for hits and wounds and unmodified 6's cause a Mortal Wound in addition if near the Field Commander/Warlord.

 

Single unit buffs: Warp Time, Vessels For the Neverborn, Vets of the Long War, Weaver of Fates (Tzeentch, takes their save to 3++), Delightful Agonies (Slaanesh CSM, ignore wounds on 5+), Miasma of Pestilence (Nurgle,-1 to be hit), Prescience, various faction-specific stratagems. 

 

In particular, big units of Black Legion Possessed can get extra attacks from Merciless Fighters. 

 

Possessed beat out Bloodletters for durability, as they are tougher, have more wounds, and have access to far more defensive buffs. Offensively, Bloodletters are somewhat similar.

 

It is also possible to start Possessed on the table and rocket them forward with vehicle disembark + Warp Time + Advancing with Red Corsairs/Renegades and then charging:

 

12 inch typical deployment zone frontline + 3 inches for vehicle disembark + 7 inch move + D6 Advance + 7 inch Warp Time move + D6 Advance (see current FAQ), plus 2D6 charge, re-rollable with either Khorne Icon or Gaze of Fate (depending on mark and army comp)  and/or CP. With typical rolls, you end up covering about 40 inches of table, including the charge. Alpha Legion can also accomplish something similar without a vehicle via the 9 inch boost from Forward Operatives, though the range will be shorter because they can't Advance unless you have some means to add it (such as a Slaanesh Daemon Character from a Daemon detachment nearby for the extra Locus).

 

Not bad. Bloodletters have zero first turn charge potential if you're relying on Denizens + Banner of Blood.

 

However, most of the same stuff is possible with Berzerkers, at least offensively. Again, they're not as durable.

 

Tactically, I find that Possessed are far superior to Bloodletters as a counter-charge unit if the enemy is coming to you. They can weather a little fire, then lunge in and smash something that has just plowed into your lines...then use consolidation to launch themselves forward and take an offensive role against a weakened enemy. I do this often with Slaanesh Possessed in my Iron Warriors.

 

 

Somehow, I forgot Cursed Earth was an area of affect power. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

The two points cited in the post in favor of Possessed are durability and the potential for a first turn strike. It helps if we keep the comparison apples-to-apples.

 

Possessed have more wounds when comparing individual models. Point for point, Possessed have 2/3rd the wounds as a unit of Bloodletters of a similar cost. But yes, Possessed do have a higher toughness and a enjoy a MEQ save along with a 5+ invul (which is shared with Bloodletters.)

 

With regards to the potential for first turn strike: it sounds like you are saying it's possible, in some games, to do this for a single unit, correct? I don't know of a way to cast Warptime more than once in Matched Play and the mechanics would not work without it.

 

While I appreciate you for listing out all the potential buffs that lead to that first turn charge happening, how practical is it actually to do that? Warptime has a 3 inch range, that means you would need a DP with Wings or a Sorcerer with Jump Pack to keep up with them going the max distance to cast the power in the psychic phase. Assuming that actually works, there's still 2d6 of advancing that needs to happen in order to get there (along with the psychic test.)

 

Even if they make it into charge range, in what situation is a first turn charge actually useful? Aren't you mostly going to be running into screens and chaff? I realize that can vary from list to list, but, most often, isn't that what happens?

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

 

 

The fourth concern is buffs. I've read the Possessed Uber-Unit thread, it seems to me, practically, the best they will usually have is Str 7 4+ invul rerolling 1s. And that only applies to the first unit, a second unit wouldn't get all those buffs the same turn. Whereas Bloodletters can get Str 6 / +1 attack +2 to hit pretty reliably and it applies to all units within Locus range.

 

Cursed Earth is a radius, so multiple units of Possessed would benefit. 4++ for all of them. Str 6 for all units near a Greater Possessed + another 1 with Herald of appropriate god nearby. They can also all reroll 1's in a radius with Infernal Power, for hits and wounds and unmodified 6's cause a Mortal Wound in addition if near the Field Commander/Warlord.

 

Single unit buffs: Warp Time, Vessels For the Neverborn, Vets of the Long War, Weaver of Fates (Tzeentch, takes their save to 3++), Delightful Agonies (Slaanesh CSM, ignore wounds on 5+), Miasma of Pestilence (Nurgle,-1 to be hit), Prescience, various faction-specific stratagems. 

 

In particular, big units of Black Legion Possessed can get extra attacks from Merciless Fighters. 

 

Possessed beat out Bloodletters for durability, as they are tougher, have more wounds, and have access to far more defensive buffs. Offensively, Bloodletters are somewhat similar.

 

It is also possible to start Possessed on the table and rocket them forward with vehicle disembark + Warp Time + Advancing with Red Corsairs/Renegades and then charging:

 

12 inch typical deployment zone frontline + 3 inches for vehicle disembark + 7 inch move + D6 Advance + 7 inch Warp Time move + D6 Advance (see current FAQ), plus 2D6 charge, re-rollable with either Khorne Icon or Gaze of Fate (depending on mark and army comp)  and/or CP. With typical rolls, you end up covering about 40 inches of table, including the charge. Alpha Legion can also accomplish something similar without a vehicle via the 9 inch boost from Forward Operatives, though the range will be shorter because they can't Advance unless you have some means to add it (such as a Slaanesh Daemon Character from a Daemon detachment nearby for the extra Locus).

 

Not bad. Bloodletters have zero first turn charge potential if you're relying on Denizens + Banner of Blood.

 

However, most of the same stuff is possible with Berzerkers, at least offensively. Again, they're not as durable.

 

Tactically, I find that Possessed are far superior to Bloodletters as a counter-charge unit if the enemy is coming to you. They can weather a little fire, then lunge in and smash something that has just plowed into your lines...then use consolidation to launch themselves forward and take an offensive role against a weakened enemy. I do this often with Slaanesh Possessed in my Iron Warriors.

 

 

Somehow, I forgot Cursed Earth was an area of affect power. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

The two points cited in the post in favor of Possessed are durability and the potential for a first turn strike. It helps if we keep the comparison apples-to-apples.

 

Possessed have more wounds when comparing individual models. Point for point, Possessed have 2/3rd the wounds as a unit of Bloodletters of a similar cost. But yes, Possessed do have a higher toughness and a enjoy a MEQ save along with a 5+ invul (which is shared with Bloodletters.)

 

With regards to the potential for first turn strike: it sounds like you are saying it's possible, in some games, to do this for a single unit, correct? I don't know of a way to cast Warptime more than once in Matched Play and the mechanics would not work without it.

 

While I appreciate you for listing out all the potential buffs that lead to that first turn charge happening, how practical is it actually to do that? Warptime has a 3 inch range, that means you would need a DP with Wings or a Sorcerer with Jump Pack to keep up with them going the max distance to cast the power in the psychic phase. Assuming that actually works, there's still 2d6 of advancing that needs to happen in order to get there (along with the psychic test.)

 

Even if they make it into charge range, in what situation is a first turn charge actually useful? Aren't you mostly going to be running into screens and chaff? I realize that can vary from list to list, but, most often, isn't that what happens?

 

Even a DP without wings or a Sorcerer could keep up because you can cast after Advancing yourself. Put the sorcerer in the very front when they disembark. He moves 6 and Advances. They move 7 and then Advance. Leave one or two Possessed as a "tail" within 3 inches of him if the numbers don't line up after the rolls. 

 

And yes, this is one unit. I listed Warp Time as a single unit buff. Sorry if I wasn't more clear. As for screens, the Possessed can just smash into multiple squads, and kill enough of each to force morale issues. If they're fearless, the Possessed should be able to kill their way clear without dying and survive some additional firepower. I've had  6 IW Possessed with Delightful Agonies survive getting shot by a double Battle-Cannon Renegade Knight and then get charged by CSM bikers, kill them, and still have 2 models left to draw more fire.

 

Now, if the screens are huge fearless tarpits like Gaunts, that might be a problem. I personally never depend on Possessed as a main assault unit, nor Bloodletters either because of how fragile the latter are. I use characters, spammed walkers/monsters, or things like Berzerkers as a follow up and rely on Possessed as a shock unit and fire sink, with all the buffs making them an urgent target and helping them do lots of damage across the enemy. Even in a Khorne Daemon army I use Heralds, Daemon Princes, Bloodcrushers, etc. as the final blow. Any characters I use to support the Possessed will also be able to help the rest of the army. Not sure if that's how you want to do things, though. I could see a big unit or multiple units in Rhinos as a hammer instead.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

As someone that plays a bloodletter spam army and possessed blobs long before they were cool....

 

IMO Bloodletters are much stronger and are going to remove more enemy models provided you have the CP to spend.  If you spend 6 cp to put 2x30 bloodletters into deepstrike and give them banners you will obliterate whatever they charge and potentially tie up all kinds of stuff.  Bloodletters can also fight twice if needed for another 3 cp.  This means you pretty much must run double or triple battalion with this many bloodletters since they cannot start on the table being slow and soft with morale issues.  

 

Possessed wont hit as hard unless you really stack up the buffs which gets very clunky and awkward to use and also vulnerable to being countered.  To have durable possessed you gotta be alpha legion or nightlords and run them as slaanesh or nurgle.  Then you need a sorcerer or a MoP to buff them with psychic powers.  You end up with a blob that needs certain characters to babysit them and you rely on stratagems to make them tougher/harder hitting.  The problem with this is that you dont always succeed in casting cursed earth and delightful agonies in the same turn.  Sometimes you do but get denied or when your opponent starts shooting your guys and you try to use In Midnight Clad, it gets Vect'd and your 400 point blob just dies.  

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

As someone that plays a bloodletter spam army and possessed blobs long before they were cool....

 

IMO Bloodletters are much stronger and are going to remove more enemy models provided you have the CP to spend.  If you spend 6 cp to put 2x30 bloodletters into deepstrike and give them banners you will obliterate whatever they charge and potentially tie up all kinds of stuff.  Bloodletters can also fight twice if needed for another 3 cp.  This means you pretty much must run double or triple battalion with this many bloodletters since they cannot start on the table being slow and soft with morale issues.  

 

Possessed wont hit as hard unless you really stack up the buffs which gets very clunky and awkward to use and also vulnerable to being countered.  To have durable possessed you gotta be alpha legion or nightlords and run them as slaanesh or nurgle.  Then you need a sorcerer or a MoP to buff them with psychic powers.  You end up with a blob that needs certain characters to babysit them and you rely on stratagems to make them tougher/harder hitting.  The problem with this is that you dont always succeed in casting cursed earth and delightful agonies in the same turn.  Sometimes you do but get denied or when your opponent starts shooting your guys and you try to use In Midnight Clad, it gets Vect'd and your 400 point blob just dies.  

To really make Possessed shine, the buffs that go on them have to be things that you'd do anyway with the rest of the army, because otherwise, that's too many moving parts supporting one unit. Like you said, interfere with one or more and it's not doing so great. When I field them, I always make sure to bring other Daemons (usually a DP and Oblits) so that others can benefit either at the same time or when the Possessed eventually die.

 

Bloodletters are more efficient offensively, but more CP hungry, again, as you said. They also tend to be super vulnerable to overwatch enhancers or things like Auspex Scan. Against things like Deathwatch, they don't fare too well. Once I saw a 30 man bomb lose half its number to Auspex Scan, then another 25% to overwatching storm bolters. It killed 5 DW marines, lost a few more models, and then melted due to morale.

 

I've also seen it happen quite often that the Bloodletters obliterate what they hit....maybe even kill an entire screen in one Fight Phase, and then something shows up from reinforcements or surges forward and brooms them off the table before they get to do anything else. Seen Tyranids do that to them a few times by leaving no open backfield and forcing them to crash into a gaunt screen or baiting them by sacrificing something killy like Hive Guard and then countercharge with Stealers, game over.

 

Bottom line, each is a tool for a different purpose, but I think, overall, both are competing with Berzerkers and I'd rather take Zerks in Rhinos than even a big unit of Possessed. Bloodletters could be thrown in there as support for the initial charge because of how cheap they are, relying on the Berzerkers to carry things later on. Everytime I've seen those two as a combo, it gets pretty savage.....though for big stuff, I could see Khorne Possessed and Bloodletters used together with a Crimson Crown Herald and some Warp Talons to deny overwatch. Could be fun.

[techsoldaten]

Even a DP without wings or a Sorcerer could keep up because you can cast after Advancing yourself. Put the sorcerer in the very front when they disembark. He moves 6 and Advances. They move 7 and then Advance. Leave one or two Possessed as a "tail" within 3 inches of him if the numbers don't line up after the rolls. 

 

And yes, this is one unit. I listed Warp Time as a single unit buff. Sorry if I wasn't more clear. As for screens, the Possessed can just smash into multiple squads, and kill enough of each to force morale issues. If they're fearless, the Possessed should be able to kill their way clear without dying and survive some additional firepower. I've had  6 IW Possessed with Delightful Agonies survive getting shot by a double Battle-Cannon Renegade Knight and then get charged by CSM bikers, kill them, and still have 2 models left to draw more fire.

 

Now, if the screens are huge fearless tarpits like Gaunts, that might be a problem. I personally never depend on Possessed as a main assault unit, nor Bloodletters either because of how fragile the latter are. I use characters, spammed walkers/monsters, or things like Berzerkers as a follow up and rely on Possessed as a shock unit and fire sink, with all the buffs making them an urgent target and helping them do lots of damage across the enemy. Even in a Khorne Daemon army I use Heralds, Daemon Princes, Bloodcrushers, etc. as the final blow. Any characters I use to support the Possessed will also be able to help the rest of the army. Not sure if that's how you want to do things, though. I could see a big unit or multiple units in Rhinos as a hammer instead.

 

 

I appreciate you for taking the time to explain.

 

While I was aware of this sequence of mechanics, I didn't think anyone was really trying to make use of them. I will certainly chalk up potential for first turn charge as a benefit to Possessed.

 

I think everyone is aware of the increased durability. Properly buffed, Possessed do sound like they can last a turn or two more against the right army.

[techsoldaten]

As someone that plays a bloodletter spam army and possessed blobs long before they were cool....

 

IMO Bloodletters are much stronger and are going to remove more enemy models provided you have the CP to spend.  If you spend 6 cp to put 2x30 bloodletters into deepstrike and give them banners you will obliterate whatever they charge and potentially tie up all kinds of stuff.  Bloodletters can also fight twice if needed for another 3 cp.  This means you pretty much must run double or triple battalion with this many bloodletters since they cannot start on the table being slow and soft with morale issues.  

 

Possessed wont hit as hard unless you really stack up the buffs which gets very clunky and awkward to use and also vulnerable to being countered.  To have durable possessed you gotta be alpha legion or nightlords and run them as slaanesh or nurgle.  Then you need a sorcerer or a MoP to buff them with psychic powers.  You end up with a blob that needs certain characters to babysit them and you rely on stratagems to make them tougher/harder hitting.  The problem with this is that you dont always succeed in casting cursed earth and delightful agonies in the same turn.  Sometimes you do but get denied or when your opponent starts shooting your guys and you try to use In Midnight Clad, it gets Vect'd and your 400 point blob just dies.  

 

Agreed on all points.

 

Currently, my main list is in flux. I'm testing various detachments from Vigilus Ablaze to get a feel for them before I settle on a regular list.

 

The one detachment I'm truly happy with is a patrol with Skulltaker, a Bloodmaster and 2 x 30 Bloodletters with Banner of Blood. While it uses 7 CP to get everyone to deep strike, I sometimes add a Herald and another unit of Bloodletters to take it to a Battalion and reduce the CP burn.

 

They just hit like a truck and can wipe anything from infantry squads to Knights in a single turn. The biggest benefit is how 2 big bombs affect an opponent's battle plans, causing them to either turtle up and forgo objectives for a turn; or to spread out to try to deny a good landing zone (thus creating exposed flanks.) This is happening almost every game, having this big threat in deep strike often dictates what my opponent is going to do (and I like it.)

 

Don't get me wrong, there's counters to a big Bloodletter bomb and some armies are better at it than others. Drukhari Talos, in particular, can take a charge, survive with a wound or two, fall back to allow for other units to shoot, then charge in again via Stratagem. So don't mistake Bloodletters for an easy button, deploying them thoughtlessly turn 2 is worse than not deploying them at all.

 

While it's easy to sing their praises, this takes us back to the initial set of concerns. Bloodletters and Possessed serve a similar battlefield role, one of things I see as an advantage for Bloodletters is board control. Maybe the better term is negative board control, compelling your opponent to make choices to mitigate the affect of the incoming Bomb. I've noticed this affects elite / low model count armies far more than hordes, but it's a concern for any army looking to avoid the charge.

 

I can't imagine anything similar with Possessed. My countertactics against Possessed would be the same as with any MEQ, especially if they are footslogging. Moreover, the natural counter to a Bloodletter bomb is a bad charge target (i.e. a unit of Talos / a Morkanaught / Assault Terminators / chaff.) I suspect Possessed are even more vulnerable to this than Bloodletters due to the lower volume of attacks.

 

One other point of concern has to do with snipers. I had a couple games where opponents took out my HQs after they arrived. When Bloodletters lose their buffs, they are still a good offensive force. Not sure the same could be said for Possessed. Losing auras / access to psychic diminishes their offense way more.

[techsoldaten]

To really make Possessed shine, the buffs that go on them have to be things that you'd do anyway with the rest of the army, because otherwise, that's too many moving parts supporting one unit. Like you said, interfere with one or more and it's not doing so great. When I field them, I always make sure to bring other Daemons (usually a DP and Oblits) so that others can benefit either at the same time or when the Possessed eventually die.

 

Bloodletters are more efficient offensively, but more CP hungry, again, as you said. They also tend to be super vulnerable to overwatch enhancers or things like Auspex Scan. Against things like Deathwatch, they don't fare too well. Once I saw a 30 man bomb lose half its number to Auspex Scan, then another 25% to overwatching storm bolters. It killed 5 DW marines, lost a few more models, and then melted due to morale.

 

I've also seen it happen quite often that the Bloodletters obliterate what they hit....maybe even kill an entire screen in one Fight Phase, and then something shows up from reinforcements or surges forward and brooms them off the table before they get to do anything else. Seen Tyranids do that to them a few times by leaving no open backfield and forcing them to crash into a gaunt screen or baiting them by sacrificing something killy like Hive Guard and then countercharge with Stealers, game over.

 

Bottom line, each is a tool for a different purpose, but I think, overall, both are competing with Berzerkers and I'd rather take Zerks in Rhinos than even a big unit of Possessed. Bloodletters could be thrown in there as support for the initial charge because of how cheap they are, relying on the Berzerkers to carry things later on. Everytime I've seen those two as a combo, it gets pretty savage.....though for big stuff, I could see Khorne Possessed and Bloodletters used together with a Crimson Crown Herald and some Warp Talons to deny overwatch. Could be fun.

 

 

Maybe you could expand on that final point a little more, that each is a tool for a different purpose. My take is they are both anti-infantry units.

 

While it might be fun to talk about Berzerkers at some point, this is a unit-to-unit comparison of Possessed and Bloodletters. I'm trying to work out the situations where it would make sense to take Possessed.

[Prot]

Don't forget... Deathwatch got hit by losing SIA Beta Bolters (you have to use normal bolt rounds) So that may change things for you....

 

I like the conversation and there's some good stuff here but I do like to take a more simple look than some of the complexities here. I don't personally thrive on unit ideas that layer into one strategy relying on several things to go right. It just never pans out for me... I come across an anti-psyker list, or an anti character list (Last night was nasty. Lost 24 wounds from one pull of a trigger on Master of Possession!)

 

For me it's actually been pleasantly surprising to simply use possessed, greater possessed, and MoP's with the Daemonkin Detachment. I don't have to change my list towards it. I don't like the Dark Apostle so far, and I don't want to have to feed the unit a bunch of support. What this does for me is gives my Greater Possessed a lot of effectiveness by simply using the warlord trait and Strat (if I feel it's warranted). The MoP works fantastic with any Daemon type unit so if happens to be that there's a way to have him within cursed Earth range, then great... if not, the possessed are fairly cheap on their own. They can operate okay on their own, but can be leveraged to do some great things with the Warlord aura (6's = mortal wounds on to wound rolls ).

 

I just like to keep it simple so in my simple universe the only thing I like better about the Bloodletters is they can be summoned. And with a MoP I have done it first turn deeper into my opponent's zone than they'd like, and there is an advantage to that.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

To really make Possessed shine, the buffs that go on them have to be things that you'd do anyway with the rest of the army, because otherwise, that's too many moving parts supporting one unit. Like you said, interfere with one or more and it's not doing so great. When I field them, I always make sure to bring other Daemons (usually a DP and Oblits) so that others can benefit either at the same time or when the Possessed eventually die.

 

Bloodletters are more efficient offensively, but more CP hungry, again, as you said. They also tend to be super vulnerable to overwatch enhancers or things like Auspex Scan. Against things like Deathwatch, they don't fare too well. Once I saw a 30 man bomb lose half its number to Auspex Scan, then another 25% to overwatching storm bolters. It killed 5 DW marines, lost a few more models, and then melted due to morale.

 

I've also seen it happen quite often that the Bloodletters obliterate what they hit....maybe even kill an entire screen in one Fight Phase, and then something shows up from reinforcements or surges forward and brooms them off the table before they get to do anything else. Seen Tyranids do that to them a few times by leaving no open backfield and forcing them to crash into a gaunt screen or baiting them by sacrificing something killy like Hive Guard and then countercharge with Stealers, game over.

 

Bottom line, each is a tool for a different purpose, but I think, overall, both are competing with Berzerkers and I'd rather take Zerks in Rhinos than even a big unit of Possessed. Bloodletters could be thrown in there as support for the initial charge because of how cheap they are, relying on the Berzerkers to carry things later on. Everytime I've seen those two as a combo, it gets pretty savage.....though for big stuff, I could see Khorne Possessed and Bloodletters used together with a Crimson Crown Herald and some Warp Talons to deny overwatch. Could be fun.

 

 

Maybe you could expand on that final point a little more, that each is a tool for a different purpose. My take is they are both anti-infantry units.

 

While it might be fun to talk about Berzerkers at some point, this is a unit-to-unit comparison of Possessed and Bloodletters. I'm trying to work out the situations where it would make sense to take Possessed.

 

Bloodletters are effectively ordnance. They kill one target and then die. Possessed can actually grind their way through a front line over multiple turns to take an objective in mid table for follow up by other forces. They also work as a counter-charge force even if the opponent gets some shots in first.

 

Basically, Bloodletters are for quick, explosive results. Possessed are for prolonged, dirty fighting around mid-table, whether offensively or defensively.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Don't forget... Deathwatch got hit by losing SIA Beta Bolters (you have to use normal bolt rounds) So that may change things for you....

 

A good mention, but not too relevant here. Auspex Scan only has a 12 in range and you have to be within 12 in to charge. SIA Storm Bolters still wreck you, even on Overwatch if they have a Watch Master nearby and/or have gone for the anti-Troop tactics, like most smart opponents will against Bloodletter bombs. Even Intercessors can put a good dent in you, despite their typical AP not being relevant and they require more work to kill.

 

Also, "basic" is a valid way to run Possessed, for sure. I mentioned above that running stuff that other daemon units will benefit from and have it start out simply buffing a unit of Possessed for frontline assault and threat saturation is an easy way to get some value. Knowing how you build lists, Prot, I think you'd have plenty of other threats to force hard choices.

 

The meta that I typically run into where I am prizes obscenely high rates of fire and/or attacks in melee, plus multiple layers capable of either screening or fighting as needed. There's an Obsidian Rose DE army with over 100 warriors and special/heavy weapons everywhere, a large Deathwatch Primaris army with triple "full Gatling" Redemptors that teleport, Tau Fire Warrior Spam, dual Battle Cannon and dual Avenger Renegade Knights, Grey Knights with 60 Strike Marines, Guard with 3 Punishers plus Pask in yet another Punisher, Mortar/Wyvern/Hellhound Catachans with massed infantry screens, Necron Warrior Phalanx, Daemonette Spam with over 100 of them, plus Seekers, Alaitoc Ranger/Flyer Spam with D-Cannons and Shuriken Cannon bikes everywhere....the list goes on and on.

 

Toughness 3 "bolter victims" tend not to last long out here without some other mitigation, even if they have a 5++. As such, I tend to use Possessed with wound-ignore bonuses when I would use either them or Bloodletters, just to make sure that multiple enemy units have to deal with them instead of one enemy unit being vaporized and another vaporizing the Bloodletters in turn. The one exception is if I have something heavy and fast that can close escrow after the Bloodletters die and I can protect it until that moment comes. Generally that last bit is how my Khorne Daemon army seems to work.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

To really make Possessed shine, the buffs that go on them have to be things that you'd do anyway with the rest of the army, because otherwise, that's too many moving parts supporting one unit. Like you said, interfere with one or more and it's not doing so great. When I field them, I always make sure to bring other Daemons (usually a DP and Oblits) so that others can benefit either at the same time or when the Possessed eventually die.

 

Bloodletters are more efficient offensively, but more CP hungry, again, as you said. They also tend to be super vulnerable to overwatch enhancers or things like Auspex Scan. Against things like Deathwatch, they don't fare too well. Once I saw a 30 man bomb lose half its number to Auspex Scan, then another 25% to overwatching storm bolters. It killed 5 DW marines, lost a few more models, and then melted due to morale.

 

I've also seen it happen quite often that the Bloodletters obliterate what they hit....maybe even kill an entire screen in one Fight Phase, and then something shows up from reinforcements or surges forward and brooms them off the table before they get to do anything else. Seen Tyranids do that to them a few times by leaving no open backfield and forcing them to crash into a gaunt screen or baiting them by sacrificing something killy like Hive Guard and then countercharge with Stealers, game over.

 

Bottom line, each is a tool for a different purpose, but I think, overall, both are competing with Berzerkers and I'd rather take Zerks in Rhinos than even a big unit of Possessed. Bloodletters could be thrown in there as support for the initial charge because of how cheap they are, relying on the Berzerkers to carry things later on. Everytime I've seen those two as a combo, it gets pretty savage.....though for big stuff, I could see Khorne Possessed and Bloodletters used together with a Crimson Crown Herald and some Warp Talons to deny overwatch. Could be fun.

 

 

Maybe you could expand on that final point a little more, that each is a tool for a different purpose. My take is they are both anti-infantry units.

 

While it might be fun to talk about Berzerkers at some point, this is a unit-to-unit comparison of Possessed and Bloodletters. I'm trying to work out the situations where it would make sense to take Possessed.

 

Bloodletters are not an antiinfantry unit, they are anti anything.   

Don't forget... Deathwatch got hit by losing SIA Beta Bolters (you have to use normal bolt rounds) So that may change things for you....

 

I like the conversation and there's some good stuff here but I do like to take a more simple look than some of the complexities here. I don't personally thrive on unit ideas that layer into one strategy relying on several things to go right. It just never pans out for me... I come across an anti-psyker list, or an anti character list (Last night was nasty. Lost 24 wounds from one pull of a trigger on Master of Possession!)

 

For me it's actually been pleasantly surprising to simply use possessed, greater possessed, and MoP's with the Daemonkin Detachment. I don't have to change my list towards it. I don't like the Dark Apostle so far, and I don't want to have to feed the unit a bunch of support. What this does for me is gives my Greater Possessed a lot of effectiveness by simply using the warlord trait and Strat (if I feel it's warranted). The MoP works fantastic with any Daemon type unit so if happens to be that there's a way to have him within cursed Earth range, then great... if not, the possessed are fairly cheap on their own. They can operate okay on their own, but can be leveraged to do some great things with the Warlord aura (6's = mortal wounds on to wound rolls ).

 

I just like to keep it simple so in my simple universe the only thing I like better about the Bloodletters is they can be summoned. And with a MoP I have done it first turn deeper into my opponent's zone than they'd like, and there is an advantage to that.

I've been pleasantly surprised by possessed with just the MoP and a sorcerer.  They soak up tons of firepower are more reliable in close combat using the detachment.  

[Prot]

That's very true. It's a simple combination of units that have surprised me to be honest. I don't think you're going to really catch anyone off guard with the combo, but without costing your overall list design mentality, you can have a lot of fun with the basic premise of the Daemonkin Detachment. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Bloodletters are not an antiinfantry unit, they are anti anything.   

 

 

Yep. If you want to point at just about anything and say "that dies," Bloodletters are great. You just need to make sure....

 

1. They make contact without heavy casualties.

 

2. You have a follow up plan for when they are almost immediately destroyed thereafter.

[techsoldaten]

 

 

Bloodletters are not an antiinfantry unit, they are anti anything.   

 

 

Yep. If you want to point at just about anything and say "that dies," Bloodletters are great. You just need to make sure....

 

1. They make contact without heavy casualties.

 

2. You have a follow up plan for when they are almost immediately destroyed thereafter.

 

 

Not sure if that's an honest characterization of how Bloodletters function or even a valid point of differentiation between them and Possessed.

 

While it's true to say Bloodletters have uses against many things, YMMV against different targets. Charging a Knight is much different from multicharging 4 Infantry squads, it's the difference between removing a model and clearing a quarter of the board.

 

Sure, your opponent might try to shoot at the Bloodletters, but consider the fact that a huge Bloodletter Bomb with HQ buffs only costs about 500 points. If your list is thoughtfully designed, your opponent is shooting at Bloodletters at their peril.  Not to mention those models have a 5+ invulnerable, chewing through a unit of 30 or 60 with that takes a lot of attacks.

 

There are no buffs that turn Possessed into a death star. They are Primaris equivalent and getting them to the point where they stand up to a lot of firepower 1) requires a bunch of expensive HQs and 2) relies on a lot of things going right. On foot, those Possessed will usually face at least one additional round of shooting over what a Bloodletter squad would have to face deep striking.

 

While all this talk about durability is entertaining, let's not pretend some huge difference actually exists. Practically, Possessed are probably more vulnerable in the ways that matter.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

 

Bloodletters are not an antiinfantry unit, they are anti anything.   

 

 

Yep. If you want to point at just about anything and say "that dies," Bloodletters are great. You just need to make sure....

 

1. They make contact without heavy casualties.

 

2. You have a follow up plan for when they are almost immediately destroyed thereafter.

 

 

Not sure if that's an honest characterization of how Bloodletters function or even a valid point of differentiation between them and Possessed.

 

While it's true to say Bloodletters have uses against many things, YMMV against different targets. Charging a Knight is much different from multicharging 4 Infantry squads, it's the difference between removing a model and clearing a quarter of the board.

 

Sure, your opponent might try to shoot at the Bloodletters, but consider the fact that a huge Bloodletter Bomb with HQ buffs only costs about 500 points. If your list is thoughtfully designed, your opponent is shooting at Bloodletters at their peril.  Not to mention those models have a 5+ invulnerable, chewing through a unit of 30 or 60 with that takes a lot of attacks.

 

There are no buffs that turn Possessed into a death star. They are Primaris equivalent and getting them to the point where they stand up to a lot of firepower 1) requires a bunch of expensive HQs and 2) relies on a lot of things going right. On foot, those Possessed will usually face at least one additional round of shooting over what a Bloodletter squad would have to face deep striking.

 

While all this talk about durability is entertaining, let's not pretend some huge difference actually exists. Practically, Possessed are probably more vulnerable in the ways that matter.

 

Possessed can't manage a Death Star. Too many moving parts even if you're using auras you would use anyway. Agreed. Disposable "Distraction Carnifex" or countercharge unit, that will be workmanlike, not stellar, and not your main hammer without far too much effort or huge numbers.

 

Which ways matter for vulnerability seem meta-dependent to me. Depending on the *rest* of the enemy army, my Thousand Sons would probably rather face Bloodletters than Possessed and I've seen Bloodletters trivially removed or crippled so many times I've lost count at this point. It's just not a good look for the long game if your opponent is very numerous, has ubiquitous Invuln saves on large units, or has lots of out-of-turn shooting (EWO, Forewarned, Auspex Scan, Prescience from The Scourged, etc.). Bloodletters also have very little defensive utility unless you want to spend lots of CP to counter-charge out of deep strike and even then, they'll just hit one unit hard and then die without being able to hold a point for long

 

That said, they often do their damage first and if you follow up with something else to capitalize or lead with a tarpit or distraction, it can be amazing, like the infamous army with 90 Bloodletters and 90 Khorne Cultists or Reece Robbins' army with a similar-but smaller- setup plus a Skullreaver Prince, Skarbrand, and a Renegade Knight.

 

Possessed are not going to make that kind of dent, but they can be just difficult enough to destroy that they don't have to, in my experience.

 

Put simply, if I value offense, I take Bloodletters. If I want some more longevity and the ability to go toe to toe with a succession of enemy units while retaining some competent CC ability, I might take Possessed, depending on my army build (how many <LEGION>/Daemon synergies am I already going to use?) and likely opponents. I'd honestly rather use either one in conjunction with other assault units rather than on their own.

 

If you are specifically looking for anti-infantry offense take the Bloodletters. I don't necessarily agree that Possessed fill the same battlefield role and they're definitely worse at that one.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Lots of points going against Possessed on this thread.  

 

Here is what I think is the best version of them is...

 

15-20 possessed,slaanesh

Alpha Legion

Dark Apostle with the -1 to hit prayer

Sorcerer with delightful agonies and warptime

 

This is a pretty solid blob that is going to be hard to remove for lots of armies.  You basically just want to blob out the centre of the board or make your opponents deployment zone into a bullgryns breakfast.  With some luck you will kill a lot of screening units on the way.  Your supporting units will also find work after your blob is weakened or lost.