Ynnari Reborn: Analysis and Tactica of Index Xenos

[Karhedron]

This thread is to hold the analysis and tactical ponderings of the new iteration of the Ynnari introduced in the May 2019 issue of White Dwarf. This looks like it will be a ground-up revamp of the faction that will play completely differently to the way it did before.

This first post will be used to hold a summary of the rules for easy reference and will be updated as-and-when new content becomes available. Then it is over to you to decide how make use of the shiny new toys.

Faction Trait

Strength from Death: All units in your army get fight first after a unit is destroyed. If they charged or already had fight first, they get +1 to hit in fight phase.

Army Building

​If you choose for the detachment to become an YNNARI Detachment, then all the units in the Detachment gain the Ynnari keyword (note that this is not a Faction keyword). The Detachment is no longer considered to be a CRAFTWORLD, HARLEQUIN or DRUKHARI Detachment and so cannot use Craftworlds, Harlequins or Drukhari Detachment Abilities, Stratagems, Warlord Traits, Relics, Psycic Powers or Tactical Objectives respectively. Also note that you cannot use Craftworlds, Harlequins, Drukhari Stratagems or psychic powers to affect YNNARI units from your army, even though they may have the appropriate keywords.

Scourges, Incubi and beasts never benefit from SFD.

Yvraine, the Yncarne and the Visarch can be taken in other Drukhari, Harlequin, or Craftworlds list without invalidating their <Craftworld>, <Masque>, <Kabal>, <Cult>, or <Coven> attributes but can't benefit from them.

No non-Ynnari named characters may be taken in a Ynnari detachment.

Psychic Powers

Gaze of Ynnead: WC 6: Select one enemy unit within 18” and visible to caster. Roll a D6. 1 = 1 MW. 2-5 = D3 MW. 6 = D6 MW
Storm of Whispers: WC6: Roll 3D6 for each enemy unit within 6” of the caster. For each 6, unit takes 1 MW.
Word up of the Phoenix: WC5: Pick 1 Ynnari Infantry or Ynnari Biker Unit within 18”. One model regains D3 Lost Wounds. If no models have lost wounds, but has suffered one or more casualties, return 1 model the unit, within coherency, with 1 wound.
Unbind Souls: WC6: Select enemy within 18” of the caster. Until your next Psychic phase, you can re-roll Wounds for melee Weapon attacks made by Ynnari models in your army that target that unit.
Shield of Ynnead: WC7: All friendly Ynnari units within 6” of caster gain a 5+ INV until your next psychic phase
Ancestors Grace: WC5: Select a friendly Ynnari unit within 18”. Until your next psychic phase, re-roll hit rolls of 1 for attacks made by that unit.

Artefacts

The Lost Shroud: All damage is halved, rounding up. Each time you would lose a wound, on a 5+ it’s not lost.
Hungering Blade: Replaces power sword, starglaive or huskblade. Melee, Melee, S+3, AP-3, D2. Each 6 to hit does an additional MW.
Song of Ynnead: Replaces Shuriken Pistol. 18” range, Pistol 3, S5 AP-1 D1. Each 6 to wound is AP-3, and each time an attack from this weapon kills an enemy model, the target unit is -1 Ld until the end of the turn
Mirrorgaze: -1 to hit for attacks that target the bearer
Soulsnare: Once per game. Thrown in place of shooting. Select an enemy unit within 6”, roll 1D6. 1 = No result. 2-5 D3 Mortal Wounds, thrower regains that many lost wounds. 6 = D6 MW, and bearer regains all their lost wounds
Corag Hai’s Locket: Each time an enemy unit is destroyed by an attack made by the bearer (any type of attack, including Psychic), add 1 to the bearer’s Move and Attacks for remainder of the battle.


Warlord Traits

Lord of Rebirth: Regain a wound at the start of each battle round. And each time you would lose a wound, on a 5+ it’s not lost.
Warden of Souls: Whilst Soulbursting, +1 to attacks and strength characteristic
Walker of Many Paths: Re-roll on hit or wound each turn. If army is Battleforged, roll a D6 for each CP spent. 5+ that CP is immediately refunded
Fear of the Grave: Enemy units within 6” are at -1 Ld. -2 during any turn in which the Warlord destroyed a unit.
Favoured of Ynnead: Each time the Warlord piles in or consolidates, they can move up to 6” instead of 3”
Master of Death: Each unmodified hit roll of a 6 made for an attack by this Warlord scores 2 hits instead of 1

Stratagems

Artefacts of Death: 1/3 CP: 1 or 2 extra Relics

Whispering Spirits: 2CP: -2Ld on an enemy unit taking a morale test until end of turn

Ynnead's Net: 2CP: 1 Ynnari biker unit can Advance and Charge

United in Death: 1 CP: Pick one Asuryani, one Harlequin and one Drukhari Reborn Unit. Until the end of turn, add 1 Attack whilst Soulbursting.

Inevitable Fate: 2CP: Target an enemy unit. Reroll all failed to-wound rolls against that unit in melee

Acolyte of Ynnead: 1CP: If any enemy units have been destroyed in the Psychic phase, your target Psyker gets +3 to manifest the next power.

Reborn Together: 1CP: In the morale add 2 to the Ld of all Ynnari units that are within 6" of another friendly Ynnari unit.

Shrine of the Whispering God: 2CP: Give up to 3 Ynnari Incubi units Strength from Death

A taste for Death: 1CP: When a unit destroys an enemy unit with shooting, they can add +1 to-Hit in melee until the end of the turn.

Webway Ambush: 1/3CP: 1 or 2 units in Reserve as per other Eldar codices.

Exalted of Ynnead: 1CP: Select a non-Warlord Ynnari character and give them a Warlord trait

Back from the Brink: 2CP: Play when an infantry or biker Character is slain. On a 4+, they get back up with D3 wounds remaining.

The Great Enemy: 1CP: reroll failed to-Wound in melee vs Slaanesh

Fire and Fade: 2CP: Move a unit 7" after shooting. As per other codices but twice the price.

Deadly misdirection: 2CP: Target unit can shoot and charge after falling back.

Souls of the strongest: 1CP: If you kill the enemy Warlord, all units with SFD get Soulburst for the rest of the battle.

Lightning Fast Reactions: 2CP: -1 to-Hit on target Infantry or Fly unit until end of turn.

[antique_nova]

As soon as I read and reread the rules, I quickly sold Yvraine, guardian defenders and dark reapers, because when the wider community reads about the changes, Ynnari is going to go down the drain, simply, because it's nowhere near as powerful as it used to be and I'm not just talking about pure power, but power in it's flexibility and the combos it could produce. It had a power and scenario for everything. Now, it's just all about close combat it seems and most of the Craftworld codex, of which were really the only ones who used Ynnari, who are a mostly shooty based army suffered the hardest hit.

 

There is also, the huge nerfing of Doom, Guide and Jinx. GWS cities competitive gameplay and lore reasons, but shouldn't that have meant that plaguebearers shouldn't be able to use the [sTRATAGEM] Insane Bravery too? Because daemons like them don't feel pain and they don't even feel fear. They're already ridiculously hard to kill and that stratagem just makes things downright unfair to most armies that struggle to kill hordes as it is.

 

As for the competitive direction of the Ynnari, it looks like the best way to use them is to deepstrike assault units. Especially, when FLY units can now again jump over other units in the charge phase again, but not over buildings. You will almost never see anyone using Eldar for Ynnari detachments anymore, because they just aren't as good as what the Craftworlds have to offer. This update was obviously geared towards harlequins more than anyone else, who are obviously the most close combat dedicated force out of all the Eldar. The Drukhari are second, but even they will struggle.

 

But if I'm going to be as honest as possible, out of the Craftworld, Harlequins, Drukhari and Ynnari books. Ynnari is by far the weakest and there is absolutely no reason to take them over any of the others in the competitive sense. Except if you still want to go Ynnari shining spears, but they have lost their extra movement. So, they're much easier to predict and deny now.

 

If someone wants to prove me wrong with a list and results, then I'll quite happily retract everything I said, but I don't feel that Ynnari are worth playing at all. Not even for fun and disregarding competitiveness. Their play style is just so limited compared to every other codex out there and it just sucks out all the fun! And I'm not just talking about the Eldar codexes.

 

I mean, the assassin index was really well done and should be a shining example of how to do an index and sub faction justice. Not OP, but very powerful, fun and very adaptive.

[PeteySödes]

Im curious what people thought about running an Iyanden style construct army under the Ynarri banner? Seems like some of the more CC style boons would benefit them greatly and i'll admit, the more finessey style appeals to me. Was thinking about taking this on as my next project.

 

A T8 Wraithseer with the shroud sounds really fun. :)

[sultansean]

Im curious what people thought about running an Iyanden style construct army under the Ynarri banner? Seems like some of the more CC style boons would benefit them greatly and i'll admit, the more finessey style appeals to me. Was thinking about taking this on as my next project.

 

A T8 Wraithseer with the shroud sounds really fun.

 

 

Some of the combat Wraith units are probably the only craft world units that really benefit from Ynnari. However, I'm not sure it is enough to build a competitive list around. Yes 10 strike first wraith blades are nice, but elder lack a reliable delivery system. They are unlikely to make the charge out of deep strike and you can't quicken them if they are ynnari. It's just a point where Doom and Jinx probably make them better in close combat than striking first does. 

[sultansean]

One of the things that really takes it over the top, is that if you want to have three Ynnari detachments to make use of some of the stratagems you have to take all three Ynnari named characters and The Yncarne and Visarch are badly over costed.

[Karhedron]

I don't think you would necessarily need (or even want) to run an entire Ynnari army but adding a Detachment to an CWE/DE/HE army looks like it might have mileage. I agree that Wraith units look like a promising start as the Ynnari buffs look better on them than many other units.

 

How about this for starters? An Ynnari Spearhead detachment of 3 Wraithlords with Glaives. Heavy weapons are a personal choice but Shuricannons look good as the Wraithlords will be able to Advance and still shoot with reasonable effect. 18 S6 shots will be reasonably effective at clearing screens and allowing them to charge something valuable on T2. For the HQ, you will probably want the Yncarne (although Yrvraine will workand be slightly cheaper). The Yncarne will benefit from their screening until it reaches combat and then it can either chew through units or start bouncing around the enemy army if you kill something at an opportune moment.

 

Cast "Shield of Ynnead" while you move up as these boys will move on average 11.5" when Advancing and 10 T8 wounds each with a 3+/5++/6+++ will make them almost impossible to stop before they reach the enemy's lines. A Wraithseer with the "Lost Shroud" would also work well but you have to take one of the Triumvirate as your first HQ so this will get expensive quite quickly. Actually, a Wraithseer + Yvraine/Visarch is still cheaper than the Yncarne and the Wraithseer got buffed to T8 in the recent FAQ. The Ynarri stratagems allow you to buy both Warlord Traits and Relics, even if your Warlord is from a different detachment. There is definitely potential here I think.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

 

 

Some of the combat Wraith units are probably the only craft world units that really benefit from Ynnari. However, I'm not sure it is enough to build a competitive list around. Yes 10 strike first wraith blades are nice, but elder lack a reliable delivery system. They are unlikely to make the charge out of deep strike and you can't quicken them if they are ynnari. It's just a point where Doom and Jinx probably make them better in close combat than striking first does. 

 

 

 

The only other CWE unit I can think of that really likes being Ynnari is Striking Scorpions. They do not really get much out of being in the usual Alaitoc but a +1 to hit is really sweet on the Exarch with claw - you could be generating extra swings on a 4+ quite easily.

[Karhedron]

Yes, Scorpions do benefit from being Ynnari but are still stuck trying to make a 9" charge from Reserves. Ynnari provides Eldar bonuses in melee but relatively little help in getting them there.

[Karhedron]

Another possibility that looks good is the stratagem Ynneads Net. For 2 CPs a unit of bikers can advance and charge. That is a good way to get a big unit of shining spears or Reavers deep into your opponent's army on T1. It is a lot more reliable than Webway Portalling them in too (which is now restricted to T2 anyway). Combine with some Banshees charging out of a Wave Serpent to negate Overwatch and you have the beginnings of a solid assault there.

 

Now that FLY works in the charge phase too, you stand a good chance of being able to tri-lock models to prevent the enemy from falling back. Tie up as much as possible to minimise enemy shooting and get the rest of your army piled in on T2. If you are feeling sneaky, you could run the Banshees as MSU in the hope that your opponent will wipe out at least 1 squad in his turn (either shooting or in melee). This would give you a chance to have Yncarne pop up which would then make it able to move and assault in your turn and potentially get deep behind enemy lines.

[ambit]

I put a list together the other day, have a bunch of wraith units and thought a Ynnari Wraith army may actually work.

 

Still missing a few pieces and haven't play tested it, but there is definitely some handy strategem, powers, relics and traits through running them as Ynnari.

 

 

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [48 PL, 722pts, 2CP] ++

 

Craftworld Attribute: Ynnari
Battle-forged CP [3CP]
Detachment CP [1CP]
Exalted of Ynnead [-1CP]
Artefacts of Death [-1CP]: One Extra

 

+ HQ +

 

Autarch with Swooping Hawk Wings [5 PL, 95pts]
. Banshee Mask, Forceshield, Shuriken Pistol, Power sword, Relic: Hungering Blade
. Ynnari Warlord: Warden of Souls

 

Wraithseer [10 PL, 100pts]
. Relic: Corag Hai's Locket
. WT: Lord of Rebirth

 

Yvraine [7 PL, 132pts]
. Revenant: 3. Word of the Phoenix, 4. Unbind Souls

 

+ Lord of War +

 

Wraithknight [27 PL, 395pts]
. 2x Shuriken Cannon, Titanic Ghostglaive and Scattershield

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [72 PL, 1278pts, 5CP] ++

 

Craftworld Attribute: Ynnari
Detachment CP [5CP]

 

+ HQ +

 

Spiritseer [3 PL, 65pts]
. Shuriken Pistol
. Revenant: 5. Shield of Ynnead

 

The Visarch [6 PL, 120pts]

 

+ Troops +

 

Dire Avengers [3 PL, 55pts]

. 4x Dire Avenger: 4x Avenger Shuriken Catapult
. Dire Avenger Exarch: Avenger Shuriken Catapult

 

2x Dire Avengers [3 PL, 58pts]
. 4x Dire Avenger: 4x Avenger Shuriken Catapult
. Dire Avenger Exarch: Two Avenger Shuriken Catapults

 

+ Elites +

 

2x Wraithblades [10 PL, 175pts]
. Ghostswords, 5x Wraithblade

 

Wraithguard [11 PL, 190pts]
. Wraithcannon, 5x Wraithguard

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Shining Spears [5 PL, 104pts]
. 2x Shining Spear: 2x Laser Lance, 2x Twin Shuriken Catapult
. Shining Spear Exarch: Star Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

2x Wave Serpent [9 PL, 139pts]
. Two Shuriken Catapult, Twin Shuriken Cannon

 

++ Total: [125 PL, 1998pts, 7CP] ++

 

 

Deployment

 

1CP to put the Wrathcannon Wraithguard in Webway Ambush. Wraithblades ride in a Wave Serpent with the Spiritseer, Visarch and Yvraine.

 

Dire Avengers are for Objectives, Wraithknight advances ahead of the Wraithseer and Autarch, flanked by the Wave Serpents. Shining Spears hide out of LoS, ready to dart over screens and hit a key unit.

 

With Path of Command we've got a chance at regaining 1CP per turn. Start the game with 6CP, but will mainly be avoiding using CP for anything other than important re-rolls, with the exceptions of Inevitable Fate [2CP] on key units, Souls of the Strongest [1CP] when we kill the warlord, Ynneads Net [2CP] on the shining spears if they need to advance + charge and Fire and Fade [2CP] if absolutely necessary.

 

 

Turn 1

 

We have 4 big targets that will be hard to bring down. Preference is to hide the Shining Spears, Wraithseer and Autarch out of LoS if at all possible.

 

If in range, the infantry in wave serpents can disembark and charge, but likely they stay inside until turn 2. Shooting phase is then 6 Shuriken Cannon and 27 Shuriken Catapult (if in range).

 

 

Turn 2

 

Disembark, move and shoot / charge.

 

Wraithcannons drop in and delete vehicles / heavy infantry. Re-rolling hits of 1 from the Autarch or Spirit Seer. They can also re-roll wounds against a unit with Unbind Souls cast on it or if we use Inevitable Fate [2CP]. Word of the Phoenix will heal them for D3, or return a dead model. Shield of Ynead gives them a 5++ if they're within 6" of the Spirit Seer. The Wraithseer can also cast Enliven to give them an extra dice (discard lowest) on the advance/charge, and Deliverance to give them a 6+++. So potentially 5 x 3W, T5, 3+, 5++, 6+++

 

Wraithknight charges any worthwhile targets. He benefits from Strength from Death, so hitting on a 2+, re-rolling 1s from the Autarch or Spirit Seer, re-rolling all misses from The Visarch. He can also re-roll wounds against a unit with Unbind Souls cast on it or if we use Inevitable Fate [2CP]. Can stomp for 12 attacks if tied up with infantry.

 

The goal with the Wraithseer is to get him into combat midfield and start finishing off units and vehicles to bump up his move and attack, which will also proc Strength from Death. With Lord of Rebirth he gets a 5+++ and regains 1 wound per turn. If he is used to finish off units with the Ghostspear, he gets +1M and +1A each time, also hits on 2+ when charging with Strength from Death. Handy when he hits at S9, AP-4, D6.

 

Wraithblade units charge infantry. They benefit from Strength from Death, so each of them are hitting on a 2+, re-rolling 1s from the Autarch or Spirit Seer, re-rolling all misses from The Visarch. They can also re-roll wounds against a unit with Unbind Souls cast on it or if we use Inevitable Fate [2CP]. 2 units with 20 attacks each at S6, AP-3, 1. Word of the Phoenix will heal them for D3, or return a dead model. Shield of Ynead gives them a 5++ if they're within 6" of the Spirit Seer. The Wraithseer can also cast Enliven to give them an extra dice (discard lowest) on the advance/charge, and Deliverance to give them a 6+++. So potentially 5 x 3W, T5, 3+, 5++, 6+++

 

Autarch eats overwatch for the Shining Spears, then has 6 attacks at S7, AP-3, D2. Wound rolls of 6 are an additional Mortal Wound.

 

Like the Autarch, the Shining Spears can fly over screens to charge key units, shooting on the way in. They benefit from Strength from Death, so each of them are hitting on a 2+, re-rolling 1s from the Autarch or Spirit Seer, or re-rolling all misses from The Visarch. They can also re-roll wounds against a unit with Unbind Souls cast on it or if we use Inevitable Fate [2CP]. 4 attacks at S6, AP-4, 2D, and 3 attacks at S8, -4AP, 2D. Word of the Phoenix will heal them for D3, or return a dead model. Shield of Ynead gives them a 5++ if they're within 6" of the Spirit Seer. They have a 4++ against ranged attacks and the Exarch can natively re-roll wounds against monsters and vehicles.

 

6 Shuriken Cannon and 27 Shuriken Catapult (if in range) will keep peppering away at hordes.

 

 

Summary

 

So there is a fair bit of synergy there, with the 3 x Revenant powers and the Wraithseer powers all being useful buffs to the core Wraithguard/Wraithblade units.

 

Heaps of anti-tank/titan, while fly units take out characters and anything else hiding behind screens and the wraithblades + shuriken weapons should chew through infantry.

 

Low model count, but they are mostly very durable units.

[Marshal van Trapp]

That list actually looks surprisingly effective! May have to give it a try once I get around to building all my craftworld stuff

[TheShredder]

Whilst I like some of the flavour of Ynnari, I think you're expected to sacrifice far too much for far too little. 
- The army-wide rule is niche at best. Always Strikes First doesn't even do what it's supposed to, and +1 to hit in melee is basically a middle finger to all DE players. Because everyone loves "bonuses" that are utterly redundant. Oh, and on top of only working on non-DE melee units, you don't even get the bonus at all unless a unit has died that turn. It seems almost purpose-built to be excessively bad. Could we not have at least gotten +1 to wound instead? That would seem to be far more useful for low-strength armies, even if it still only ever affects about 1/3-1/2 of the units in these armies.
- Being forced to not only include one of their boring, overpriced special characters but to include one of their boring, overpriced special characters in *every* Ynnari detachment is just a dick-move on GW's part. It's a completely unnecessary tax on an army that already punishes you for playing it. 
- I like the flavour of the psychic powers, but from a mechanical perspective it just feels like yet more punishment - such as having Fortune and Doom but making them vastly inferior to the Eldar versions (both have worse range, the Doom equivalent only affects melee units and the Fortune equivalent only allows rerolls of 1). 
- Oh, and one last insult to DE players - the Pistol relic can only replace a Shuriken Pistol, not a Splinter Pistol. No one even plays DE, right?

Look, I'm perfectly fine with Ynnari being weak. What I object to is them being weak but also absurdly awkward to even field. I could at least live with most of the above but whoever decided to make the special characters mandatory can go slam his head repeatedly in a car door.

[GrinNfool]

Fielded an Ynnari army last weekend to give them a try.  Ran double bat @ 2k 2x 5 wych 1x10 wych 1 raider 2 venom 2 ravagers with dis and Visarch and a Archon.  Then a 2nd ynnari of Harlies with troupe master (gave him the sword relic quite good) Yvraine 3x 5 harlies wtih 4 caress 3 star weaver a 3x skyweaver haywire + spear and a 4x haywire + spear.  Played against a reasonable necron list, not amazing but it wasn't bad.  Absolutely crushed the crons, lost 1 bike and 1 venom and 1 wych squad.  I put the army together not thinking it wasn't bad but it outperformed what I thought of it.

 

I mean they aren't the cheese fest they were, but think people are being a bit dismissive of them, they were a blast to play.  I had shelved ynnari because they were SOOOO boring and unfun to play with/against was a snooze fest of easy wins.  I mean I had 10 wyches get to put out 40 s4 attacks hitting on 2s.... how is that not cool?  Not saying they are omg amazeballs, but they are certainly useable, just requires a different thought process of how to play them.

[TheShredder]

 I mean I had 10 wyches get to put out 40 s4 attacks hitting on 2s.... how is that not cool?  

 

I'm assuming that either the +1S or the +1A was from Combat Drugs, but what was the other bonus from?

[GrinNfool]

 

 I mean I had 10 wyches get to put out 40 s4 attacks hitting on 2s.... how is that not cool?  

 

I'm assuming that either the +1S or the +1A was from Combat Drugs, but what was the other bonus from?

 

+1a strategem "united in death".  Used this on some harlies at one point for 25 attacks too, attacks from 5 clowns.

[TheShredder]

 

 

 I mean I had 10 wyches get to put out 40 s4 attacks hitting on 2s.... how is that not cool?  

 

I'm assuming that either the +1S or the +1A was from Combat Drugs, but what was the other bonus from?

 

+1a strategem "united in death".  Used this on some harlies at one point for 25 attacks too, attacks from 5 clowns.

 

Fair enough.

 

I can't speak for the clowns, but this seems like something that could be done just as easily with Cult of Stryfe or Cult of the Cursed Blade, neither of which would cost you a Command Point to use.

[GrinNfool]

Eh to a certain extent, you do get to hit on 2s before turn 3 which is underestimated since DE can pretty easily be in combat by turn 2 if not turn 1.  Either way my point wasn't that Ynnari is omggolly geebbq amazing.... Its that its functional without being boring.

[TheShredder]

Eh to a certain extent, you do get to hit on 2s before turn 3 which is underestimated since DE can pretty easily be in combat by turn 2 if not turn 1.  Either way my point wasn't that Ynnari is omg:cussbbq amazing.... Its that its functional without being boring.

 

Getting it turn 2 might be useful but after that it's worthless for the remainder of the game. Each to their own but I'd much rather have a consistently useful army bonus. 

 

I want to like Ynnari. Believe me, I do. But so many suggested tactics I've seen seem to just be doing the exact same thing as non-Ynnari armies, except that they're much worse. 

[GrinNfool]

Don't think they are MUCH worse, you still get to cherry pick the units you want... for DE you can put kabal and wych units in the same detachment which is a nice thing.  I don't know I think they have benefits and downsides.  Guess to me I don't need them to be strictly better just different.  Played eldar, de, and harlies is easy enough I don't need anything that makes them better, just something thats different and alters the playstyle a bit.

[TheShredder]

Don't think they are MUCH worse, you still get to cherry pick the units you want... .

Well, assuming you don't want Mandrakes or any Coven units.

 

Also assuming that you want to take one of the Ynnari special characters in every fething detachment.

 

for DE you can put kabal and wych units in the same detachment which is a nice thing.  I don't know I think they have benefits and downsides.  Guess to me I don't need them to be strictly better just different.  Played eldar, de, and harlies is easy enough I don't need anything that makes them better, just something thats different and alters the playstyle a bit.

Regarding putting Kabal and Cult in the same detachment, IMO it's something that sounds great on paper but really doesn't serve much purpose. I guess if you really want the Archon's piddling buff over the Succubus' piddling buff then you've got that option. 

 

They do have benefits and downsides, it's just that the former are few and far between, whilst the latter are massive.

 

And as I've said repeatedly, I don't mind Ynnari being weak. I just don't see why:

1) Their army bonus needs to be a middle-finger to DE players.

2) They need to be absurdly awkward to even field. I'm happy to use a weak army becuase it's flavourful but I draw the line at a weak army that punishes me for having the sheer gall to try and use the bloody thing. Seriously, whoever decided that every detachment needed to include a special character just to be Ynnari at all deserves to have his head repeatedly slammed in a car door.