FAQ up

[Chris521]

Big thing is that SIA and Bolter discipline don't work at the same time.

[SwashBuccaneer]

Yeah I saw that. Like ouch. Get a cool new bolter rule to go official and they decide to screw with SIA.

[Chris521]

I think what I don't like the most about it is what it does to terminators.  Although I'm disappointed about veteran losing it, I know that I liked them before the rules was introduced.  Terminators though..

 

 

 

Here is one little change I like, hand flamers are now Pistol D6.  I have one Salamander Vanguard Vet dual wielding these.  Maybe he need some friends?

[BrotherAetherick]

Q: Can I use the Tome of Ectoclades to effectively give the Mission Tactics ability to a Deathwatch unit that would not otherwise have it (either because that unit is not part of a Deathwatch Detachment or because it is not an Infantry, Biker or Dreadnought unit)? A: Yes.

 

Huge buff here tho.

[SwashBuccaneer]

I think what I don't like the most about it is what it does to terminators.  Although I'm disappointed about veteran losing it, I know that I liked them before the rules was introduced.  Terminators though..

 

 

 

Here is one little change I like, hand flamers are now Pistol D6.  I have one Salamander Vanguard Vet dual wielding these.  Maybe he need some friends?

 

Yeah I was already playing with a list idea with some Vanguards with chainswords and handflamers beforehand and now....

 

They can also charge over enemy models now as well just not buildings if I read that right. Could maybe make some cool lists using flying assault dudes.

[Syward]

Big thing is that SIA and Bolter discipline don't work at the same time.

This is a bit of a bummer.  At least they didn't exclude it from DW altogether and we still have limited access to it so we can choose to use it in situations where we're out of rapid fire range and volume of fire would be better than having SIA profiles (e.g. horde of low toughness and/or high save units that you don't want to get close to)

 

I'm also really glad that they let our Dreadnoughts keep Bolter Discipline since they don't get access to SIA. Still wish it worked on the Storm Bolters on our tanks though. (Completely understandable why it was restricted from Hurricane Bolters though)

 

Does the wording in the FAQ on the Bolter Discipline clear up the questions/debate on whether or not Bikers & Terminators get access to it when they're included in a Veteran Squad?

[BrotherAetherick]

 

 

Does the wording in the FAQ on the Bolter Discipline clear up the questions/debate on whether or not Bikers & Terminators get access to it when they're included in a Veteran Squad?

 

 

Yep. It's crystal clear they can benefit from it now. However, since the same SIA needs to be used per squad, if you're "benefitting" being a TERMINATOR or BIKER, your normal vets can't fire SIA.

[Moostick]

Not all that surprised. When it first came out, any reasonable person saw how overtuned bolter discipline was for DW.

[Sea-People]

Were Deathwatch really over-performing to the point where the bolter discipline exception was necessary? For me at least it felt like the rule made the army playable instead of cannon fodder for the opponent.

 

This sucks. How do we adjust?

[Mobius0288]

I think normal space marines and chaos are going to be a little tricky when they deep strike some termies on an objective and you have to go take it.

 

I'm ok with the change. I think it brings back usefulness to the stalker bolter rifles our vets take. And intercessors still have usefulness with the bolter rule.

 

I wonder if the meta will drive more ironclad dreads with hurricane bolters. Definitely going to see more bikers around.

 

I like the clarification on the tome of ectolades and the beacon angelis.

 

Still sad about no POTMS on the blackstar :-P

[Chris521]

This really screws up my Terminator captain.  Bane Bolts require SIA to be used so it can't work with bolter discipline.

[Moostick]

This sucks. How do we adjust?

We did it before and we can do it again! Time to go back and review lists from 4 months ago.

[Syward]

This really screws up my Terminator captain.  Bane Bolts require SIA to be used so it can't work with bolter discipline.

 

We'll just have to make sure that we get our TDA captains in rapid fire range to make the best use of Bane Bolts. I'm building a TDA capt w/SB & TH that is supposed to use Bane bolts - he'll just be my capt. that I use to DS in w/my 'Inter-Blaster' squads.

 

 

 

This sucks. How do we adjust?

We did it before and we can do it again! Time to go back and review lists from 4 months ago.

 

Since we still get (limited) access to it, we'll just need to weigh the pros & cons of when & how to use it - TBH, I think it's fair that we'll need to choose SIA over double shots & max range - we can still rapid fire our SIA when we're in rapid fire range, so it's not quite back to before the beta rule.

[Syward]

duplicate post. 

[spacewatch]

I think normal space marines and chaos are going to be a little tricky when they deep strike some termies on an objective and you have to go take it.

 

I'm ok with the change. I think it brings back usefulness to the stalker bolter rifles our vets take. And intercessors still have usefulness with the bolter rule.

 

I wonder if the meta will drive more ironclad dreads with hurricane bolters. Definitely going to see more bikers around.

 

I like the clarification on the tome of ectolades and the beacon angelis.

 

Still sad about no POTMS on the blackstar :-P

 

Was thinking the same. Backfield units just switch back to Stalker Boltguns and Storm Bolters start shooting RF normal boltgun ammo when not in RF range and targeting something like ~T3/4Sv3-6 (need to mathhammer this). SIA still works better against T5+. Tome buff is nice. I was planning to make deepstriking Termie firebase but ...Termie is still just a AP0 shield in Kill-Team.

[Sea-People]

 

 

Since we still get (limited) access to it, we'll just need to weigh the pros & cons of when & how to use it - TBH, I think it's fair that we'll need to choose SIA over double shots & max range - we can still rapid fire our SIA when we're in rapid fire range, so it's not quite back to before the beta rule.

 

First instinct is to take the extra shot almost every time. Only exception being if you really need the extra AP.

[Azaiel]

The change for beta bolter for our forces was expected. Well it was fun while it lasted.

The tome of Ectoclades buff was a fun addition and if I understand it correctly our captains can now take stormbolter and relic sword or xenophase blade. And our bikes in veteran kill teams can climb stairs!

[Syward]

 

 

 

Since we still get (limited) access to it, we'll just need to weigh the pros & cons of when & how to use it - TBH, I think it's fair that we'll need to choose SIA over double shots & max range - we can still rapid fire our SIA when we're in rapid fire range, so it's not quite back to before the beta rule.

 

First instinct is to take the extra shot almost every time. Only exception being if you really need the extra AP.

 

 

I think it'll largely be dependent on the target and going back to maneuvering into rapid fire range so you get double shots and SIA like we used to do before the beta rule was introduced. (I'm already used to getting my units into rapid fire range to maximize the Hellblaster shots)

 

Volume of fire isn't always going to be best, especially against MEQ or better units, I think you'll want to ensure the shots that do hit count, so to me the SIA for the buffed AP seems like it'll be the better choice. Not sure though, it'd be interesting to see someone math-hammer it out.

 

In reality, I think both SIA and Bolter Discipline was a little much for us considering we already favor putting storm bolters on everything. As cool as having 20 SIA shots from a 5 man squad @ 30" it's a little much for how cheaply we could do it, so it makes sense that GW gave the DW restrictions on using one or the other.

[SwashBuccaneer]

We're gonna need some more charts to determine when to use SIA vs. BD and what type of SIA to use. Just when the shooting didn't take long enough. :P

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Q: Can I use the Tome of Ectoclades to effectively give the Mission Tactics ability to a Deathwatch unit that would not otherwise have it (either because that unit is not part of a Deathwatch Detachment or because it is not an Infantry, Biker or Dreadnought unit)? A: Yes.

 

Huge buff here tho.

 

FAQ says you can now.

[BrotherAetherick]

 

 

FAQ says you can now.

 

 

Which is why it's a huge buff. Our metal boxes can finally reroll wounds of 1 like other chapters with lieutenants.

[Kallas]

FAQ says you can now.

 

Honestly, I'd been playing it that way before the FAQ - that is what the rule says (it says any DEATHWATCH unit, no other limitation) and this is just nice for the official backing :D

[GrinNfool]

Having to choose between SIA and BD is kind of silly honestly.  If thats what they are going to do then SIA should be free or a static 1 point tax instead of making DW guns cost more because it is now a side grade that is only sometimes used.  Statistically vs anything t4 or less (or up to t7 assuming using a strategem) you are better off not using SIA assuming you are out of normal rapid fire range, or shooting at 2+ save and even then its only .2 better odds per boltgun.

[Kallas]

Ok, so here's some Mathhammer (pretty basic, though), this is the stats for a single Storm Bolter, no rerolls of any kind:

Assuming vs T4/Sv3+ (MEQs)

 

Bolter Discipline: 0.436 damage

 

Kraken (>21", eg walk+RF): 0.33

Kraken (<21"): 0.66

 

Vengeance (>15"): 0.436

Vengeance (<15"): 0.871

 

Hellfire (>18"): 0.363

Hellfire (<18"): 0.726

 

Best using Vengeance or regular shells if they're outside of walk plus Rapid Fire.

 

vs Ts/Sv5+ (GEQs)

 

Bolter Discipline: 1.15

 

Kraken (>21"): 0.726

Kraken (<21"): 1.451

 

Vengeance (>15"): 0.871

Vengeance (<15"): 1.742

 

Hellfire (>18"): 0.726

Hellfire (<18"): 1.451

 

Regular Bolter fire if they're far; Kraken if they're within walk plus RF range.

 

Honestly, it's fine. If you're sitting still on an objective and can't walk up to them, you're still sitting pretty with more firepower per point than other Marines with much greater resilience. And if you're on the move to take their objectives, then your firepower is even better.

[Mr4Minutes]

I think this was a pretty good faq for us.

 

GW FINALLY clarified the bikes going through walls/upstairs etc for us.

 

I’m ok with the bolter discipline change with regards to SIA. I’m closing the gap usually, so I don’t think it’s detrimental. Although I don’t like vehicles losing them.

 

I need to start taking the tome more often as well.