FAQ up

[Kallas]

I feel like the Tome and Beacon are damn auto includes! The Tome's added flexibility means I'm rarely using Adaptive Tactics, and so have the CP available for other things; and the Beacon gives the otherwise slow infantry units some much needed mobility and, importantly, makes them a little wildcard movement that the opponent can't always account for.

[LucidNinja]

I've seen a few people say beacon has been buffed but I can't find it in the FAQ? I've always run it on my jump captain to throw a fortis squad up nice and close with plasma inceptors

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you deep strike some units the nerf to SIA is not that bad since you can drop inside rapid fire range. Are pure terminator units affected by the FAQ for Deathwatch ? I’m thinking yes they are.

[Syward]

I think this was a pretty good faq for us.

 

GW FINALLY clarified the bikes going through walls/upstairs etc for us.

 

I’m ok with the bolter discipline change with regards to SIA. I’m closing the gap usually, so I don’t think it’s detrimental. Although I don’t like vehicles losing them.

 

I need to start taking the tome more often as well.

 

I don't like that vehicles lost Bolter Discipline either, but I am glad that they let our Dreadnoughts keep it.

[SwashBuccaneer]

Am I reading this wrong but can we not even use SIA with half range rapid firing anymore?

 

After looking at the FAQ again and the BD section it lists 3 conditions for rapid fire in the BD section. One of these conditions is half range. It then says the BD can't be used with SIA. That's reading to me as if they don't want us rapid firing in any instance with SIA.

[GrinNfool]

@ swash you aren't reading it right.  Using SIA exempts DW from BD, it doesn't remove rapid fire from their weapon.  So choosing to use SIA means you act as though you didn't have bolter drill which would just be firing a rapid fire weapon the rules for which are in the BRB and not changed in the FAQ.  Like I said earlier and Kallas posted a chart showing, if you are outside of rapid fire range normally (counting kraken so 15" for normal marines or 18" for primaris) you will almost always fire non SIA ammo unless shooting at a 2+ armor target or vs t5 or better. 

 

Where the real debate comes in will be offense vs defense.  Say you are sitting 21" away with a storm bolter squad, you could move up and get rapid fire with kraken, or you could stay put and get rapid fire with normal rounds, and if its terms you could even back up to 24"  and still get 20 s4 shots.  Kraken is better you say!  Huh  what if I would rather not put myself in rapid fire range of my opponent for ap-1?  Or I would rather not give him an easy charge.  Now there is a lot more considerations to if SIA is worth while in a given situation, and thats what I mean when I said SIA feels like a side grade now instead of an upgrade.  There are quite a few battle situations where SIA will not be worth the risk compared to the offense you get from BD.  While I appreciate the fact it creates a more dynamic decision making game on the part of us DW players, I don't like the idea paying 1-2 points more per gun for what amounts to a side grade that isn't always useful, and I could end up often deciding isn't a good idea. 

 

Don't get me wrong SIA is still useful, but now DW compares quite unfavorably to say ultras in a lot of situations.  You are paying a premium for vets, and the SIA tax, our chapter tactic is kinda eh, you don't get preds for kill shot, you are forced into poor AV options, and now their marines/terms have almost your level of firepower.  DWs only positives at this point are storm shields, frags, SBs, and debateably mixed squads, and at half range SIA for a medium upgrade to shooting, which of course puts you at a much greater risk than a normal primaris squad.  Not meaning to sound gloom and doom because I certainly am not, but that is the a realistic take on comparing DW to other marine chapters.  Honestly at the end of the day DW are still in a better spot than they were pre BD because they still can utilize it.  Just the positives of being DW compared to a marine chapter are looking less great.  To me this firmly pushes DW into allies territory instead of main force territory.  Likely my Scions or admech will take over the heavy lifting with a 600ish group of DW brought along to assist on infantry or horde removal.

[Kallas]

I disagree that DW compare unfavourably to Ultramarines; simply, Ultramarines are still bringing along either roughly equivalently costed models (Company Veterans with SB/SS) that don't have access to SIA (which is still much more useful once normal Rapid Fire is acheived); or they're bringing less effective models for output (eg, Tacticals/Scouts) and/or resilience (Sternguard, Tacticals, etc).

 

The simple fact that Veterans are so much more resilient (Storm Shields and Terminator make Veteran squads tough to shift), pack in a still potent amount of firepower, and are Troops is all very useful. Where Deathwatch fall down is in their support; we can bring the good FW Dreadnoughts and other bits, but we do lack in variety - but I would posit that our staple units make up for the variety (in terms of effectiveness, anyway).

 

Now, if you're talking about a Guilliman-buffed gunline, that's an entirely different matter - and one that I think Deathwatch is superior in (in a head to head, at least; possibly in overall terms too, but there are many factors). But Guilliman presents such a radical power shift from every other kind of Marine that it's unfair to conflate Guilliman's presence with 'all Marines are now close to DW'.

[GrinNfool]

I disagree that DW compare unfavourably to Ultramarines; simply, Ultramarines are still bringing along either roughly equivalently costed models (Company Veterans with SB/SS) that don't have access to SIA (which is still much more useful once normal Rapid Fire is acheived); or they're bringing less effective models for output (eg, Tacticals/Scouts) and/or resilience (Sternguard, Tacticals, etc).

 

The simple fact that Veterans are so much more resilient (Storm Shields and Terminator make Veteran squads tough to shift), pack in a still potent amount of firepower, and are Troops is all very useful. Where Deathwatch fall down is in their support; we can bring the good FW Dreadnoughts and other bits, but we do lack in variety - but I would posit that our staple units make up for the variety (in terms of effectiveness, anyway).

 

Now, if you're talking about a Guilliman-buffed gunline, that's an entirely different matter - and one that I think Deathwatch is superior in (in a head to head, at least; possibly in overall terms too, but there are many factors). But Guilliman presents such a radical power shift from every other kind of Marine that it's unfair to conflate Guilliman's presence with 'all Marines are now close to DW'.

You seem to have completely misunderstood what I said.  I said IMO DW aren't a superior core for an army now and in most situations normal marines form a better core.  DW are still useful I just think their ability to stand on their own which was already a little shakey, is worse now specifically compared to other marine chapters.  Hence why I said to me they are relegated to allies, if you need a unit to put out there to survive and are fine with about spending 240+ points then ya DW will do it for and they will do something normal marines can't, but there aren't a lot of situations I would want more than 1 or 2 of those units.  Generally a Kill shot group, or some cheaper scouts would be nice to have for table control.  You kind of just glossed over scouts but they are quite useful.  When looking at a core for a list flexiblity to deal with all target types is a very key point, allies are where you generally look for specific expertise.  DW are great for horde cleaing and absorbing shots (with some luck).  Again it bears mentioning that to non ap shooting/melee 20 points marines are no more survivable than 13 point marines, 1 dies per 3 wounds on average.

 

Also saying don't count gulliman when looking at ultras is like saying don't count the watch master for dw or slam for BA.... marines use what they got.

[Mobius0288]

If you just want troops/bodies on the board, which is usually a contributor to winning, I agree that normal marines can do that better then us... but it's a different play style. And just like the inclusion/exclusion of certain units, you can't compare a "unit of veterans" to a "unit of company vets (or tactical marines)." We get to include termies, VVs and T5 units in our teams. Though a little more expensive, that totally changes the dynamics of how we play.

 

My point is saying that is while I agree we aren't the number one army in the meta (space marines in general), there's still lots of success happening with some mono-codex lists. Point optimization (forgeworld has been a typical player here) and strategies are what make the difference. Tons of good unit combos, some unique to us, as well as good stratagems to abuse.

 

Typically see a double battalion and that second battalion being some cheaper way to get bodies - scouts, skitarii, astra. But I've seen some (and personally experienced) success with just a battalion or a battalion and vanguard/outrider.

 

I'm not trying to convince anyone they're right or wrong, but the unit choices and strategies can make a difference.

 

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Along that same thought with taking regular space marine battalions... I wonder if taking normal Intercessors would a good way to go, still having that inherent AP -1 and bolter discipline and being a tiny bit cheaper with some different HQ options to support. I hardly ever play scouts but I could see the temptation to just enjoy the standard bolter and camo-cloaks with bolter discipline.

[Prot]

I didn't realize there was a passage in the FAQ clarifying bikes moving up stairs? Not ruins I suppose, but as long as there are stairs?

 

I still think the humble DW Intercessor is still such a huge asset against  elite unit types. This is something that a basic marine equivalent has to use Guilliman as a means of equalizing what a Watchmaster, Poison SIA, and even re-roll 1's can do for you (not to mention potential strats). I still think that out of the box, I still love the DW Intercessors. (even without Bolter Drill.) 

[Kallas]

Bolter Discipline not applying to SIA makes Stalker Bolters/Bolt Rifles an option, at least.

 

The SBRs aren't particularly impressive, but five Intercessors can sit back on an objective and dump out five 4/-3/1 shots at 42" all day long, or five at 36" Hellfire with AP-2! That's not nothing!

[Raven1]

I can understand why Bolter Discipline and SIA got toned down. If we could do both, why bother playing with any other marine army. Deathwatch Veterans are arguably the best power armor units, that would just take them over the top imo.

[Prot]

I can understand why Bolter Discipline and SIA got toned down. If we could do both, why bother playing with any other marine army. Deathwatch Veterans are arguably the best power armor units, that would just take them over the top imo.

 

I completely agree. It felt really underwhelming to pull out my UM in games compared to my Deathwatch. 

[Syward]

 

I can understand why Bolter Discipline and SIA got toned down. If we could do both, why bother playing with any other marine army. Deathwatch Veterans are arguably the best power armor units, that would just take them over the top imo.

 

I completely agree. It felt really underwhelming to pull out my UM in games compared to my Deathwatch. 

 

IMO, it still does, even with the nerf to Bolter Discipline. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Deathwatch is a gate keeper army.

[Prot]

Deathwatch is a gate keeper army.

 

Seems appropriate!

 

I may pull them out tonight to see If I really feel the negatives of the Bolter Drill VS the positives of the Knight/Ynarri Nerfs. :)

[Madmonkeyman]

Can infantry mixed squads was bikers still teleport in ? There was a change to the teleport strat saying INFANTRY only. But the whole unit has that key word , just loose it for bolter rule or getting in transports

[Kallas]

Can infantry mixed squads was bikers still teleport in ? There was a change to the teleport strat saying INFANTRY only. But the whole unit has that key word , just loose it for bolter rule or getting in transports

 

Yes, they can.

 

Bikers only have the BIKER keyword for the purposes of transporting the unit (which the Teleportarium is not), and for Bolter Discipline. So they are still INFANTRY, in their entirety, for the purposes of the Teleportarium.

[Madmonkeyman]

That’s what I thought. As it’s infantry as a keyword . Thanks

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Deep strike them and you don’t even ever need BD. It’s a no brainer and how I have always played them.

[Kallas]

Deep strike them and you don’t even ever need BD. It’s a no brainer and how I have always played them.

 

Have you run Bikers in a Veteran unit and Combat Squadded them out? I'm curious as to how effective that is, as I currently only have three Bikers (enough to slap one into a big unit if I want to option to Fall Back and Charge!) so haven't had the opportunity yet.

 

Is the ObSec/possible Vanguard tag-along worth it vs the Fast Attack choices' Turbo Boost/Sergeant options?

[SwashBuccaneer]

Speaking of combat squad...if you split a squad do both of the newly split squads get the benefits of the mixed team?

 

I.e. if I have a 10 man kill team with 5 vets, 3 bikes, and 2 vanguard and split them to 1 team with 5 vets and 1 with the 3 bikes and vanguards would they both be able to fall back and shoot and fall back and charge?

 

Combat squading is one of those rules as a newbie that I have a hard time seeing the benefits of.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t run any bikers. They are good but for my list there’s really no point.

[GrinNfool]

 

Deep strike them and you don’t even ever need BD. It’s a no brainer and how I have always played them.

 

Have you run Bikers in a Veteran unit and Combat Squadded them out? I'm curious as to how effective that is, as I currently only have three Bikers (enough to slap one into a big unit if I want to option to Fall Back and Charge!) so haven't had the opportunity yet.

 

Is the ObSec/possible Vanguard tag-along worth it vs the Fast Attack choices' Turbo Boost/Sergeant options?

 

 

Depends what you want as to how useful it is.  Sometimes its more useful (and cheaper) to just run a 3-4 man bike squad and get that extra storm bolter for the sgt (3 bikers put out 16 shots w/ SB sgt and BD).  Other times though you might rather combat squad out to protect more vulnerable VVs with T5.  For fun I run 3-4 bikers then 1-2 VVs with Hvy Thammer, though you could of course run them with TH/SS or any other variation.  While I don't know that I would say its good it has created some fun moments,  Very satisfying vs tanks, monsters, or knights, better vs not knights though for the +1 to wound strat.  Other ways to use it more practically would be having a biker squad that can shoot charge then fall back and repeat, while getting a couple cheap SSs through the VVs, still getting t5.  Really just depends what you want the squad to do though.

 

 

Speaking of combat squad...if you split a squad do both of the newly split squads get the benefits of the mixed team?

 

I.e. if I have a 10 man kill team with 5 vets, 3 bikes, and 2 vanguard and split them to 1 team with 5 vets and 1 with the 3 bikes and vanguards would they both be able to fall back and shoot and fall back and charge?

 

Combat squading is one of those rules as a newbie that I have a hard time seeing the benefits of.

So only the rules of the models in the individual squads created by combat squads get used.  So in the example of 3 bikers 2 vanguards and the other squad being 5 vets, the vets would gain none of the rules.  Using a squad like this I would suggest 5 stalker boltguns or a 2 frag 3 ss squad in a razorback/rhino.  Think of combat squadding like you are outfitting 2 squads for different purposes.  All marines have it just DW tend to benefit possibly a little more by being able to create custom squads of units that normally couldn't be together, the only requirement being 5 vets, or 5 intercessors for primaris and the squad being 10 models.  Bikers/VV is one of the uses that have more potential, but you could also run say 5 vets 3 bikers 2 terms (TH/SS can be hilarious for t5 2+/3++ or just whatever weapon outfit you want).  Other thoughts combat squad out 2 frag vets 2 TH/SS terms and maybe a dual plasma pistol VV, or dual hand flamer now that they are d6 for 1 point ea.  Basically use your imagination, though expect your ideas to not perform well sometimes either.

 

For primaris uses are a little more limited but not useless.  5 intercessors 2 HB 3 plasma inceptors can create some shenanigans, by having 1 squad of 3 intecessors 2 HB for cheap ablative wounds for the HB, and then the other squad of 2 intercessors 3 inceptors for 6d3 plasma at t5 with 4 ablative wounds.  Basically when trying to get combat squads to work think outside the box, try new things see what works.  Just don't expect it to always be successful, on the whole I view combat squadding as more of a fun mechanic that can create some neat squad make ups that could surprise your opponent and in turn make him make a mistake.  Never underestimate the value of throwing something at your opponent they don't have experience dealing with.

[Morticon]

 

Deep strike them and you don’t even ever need BD. It’s a no brainer and how I have always played them.

 

Have you run Bikers in a Veteran unit and Combat Squadded them out? I'm curious as to how effective that is, as I currently only have three Bikers (enough to slap one into a big unit if I want to option to Fall Back and Charge!) so haven't had the opportunity yet.

 

Is the ObSec/possible Vanguard tag-along worth it vs the Fast Attack choices' Turbo Boost/Sergeant options?

 

i've been running this load in my tourney list. 

 

5/5 Vets/Bikers.  

 

I usually strike in the 5man as clean up, and run the 5bikers as harrassment and claiming on account of their infantry-like movement and ruling.   

 

If I really need to bring the dakka and combo with strats, I'll keep them together. But the ObjSec biker unit on the field is great.