BA FAQ/Errata Spring 2019

[Xenith]

D6 shot hand flamers is interesting - can vanguard actually still dual wield? 

 

Best delivery system is jump pack units to get within range. I'm not counting on being in combat in my own shooting phase to take advantage of the pistol rule...

[Karhedron]

I am excited to add bolter discipline to my games, as I have not used it yet.  From what I read, it appears that only Deathwatch with special ammunition don't get it; our sternguard do.

That is correct. I think that the issue with Deathwatch is that they can stack their version of SIA with any bolter weapon (notably Stormbolters) which made it particularly strong. Sternguard get an improved bolter (as do Intercessors to a lesser extent) so the boost is smaller and within the range intended by the designers.

[Brother Crimson]

I’m glad bolter dicipline still apply to bike, scouts ones were a lot better with it.

 

Also small note on fly: while you can’t charge and n’ignore building like bunkers, if your unit is intantry it still can move through ruins during said charge, so for any JP infantry it’s really coming back the way fly used to be as most terrains are ruins. (minus the 0’’ charge gimmick that are gone for good reasons)

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I’m glad bolter dicipline still apply to bike, scouts ones were a lot better with it.

 

Also small note on fly: while you can’t charge and n’ignore building like bunkers, if your unit is intantry it still can move through ruins during said charge, so for any JP infantry it’s really coming back the way fly used to be as most terrains are ruins. (minus the 0’’ charge gimmick that are gone for good reasons)

just be mindful charging through certain difficult terrains. Since those types increases the charge needed by 2" 

[Indefragable]

 

 

I’m glad bolter dicipline still apply to bike, scouts ones were a lot better with it.

 

Also small note on fly: while you can’t charge and n’ignore building like bunkers, if your unit is intantry it still can move through ruins during said charge, so for any JP infantry it’s really coming back the way fly used to be as most terrains are ruins. (minus the 0’’ charge gimmick that are gone for good reasons)

just be mindful charging through certain difficult terrains. Since those types increases the charge needed by 2"

That was 7th Ed, wasn’t it?

[PaladinStormlord]

 

 

I’m glad bolter dicipline still apply to bike, scouts ones were a lot better with it.

 

Also small note on fly: while you can’t charge and n’ignore building like bunkers, if your unit is intantry it still can move through ruins during said charge, so for any JP infantry it’s really coming back the way fly used to be as most terrains are ruins. (minus the 0’’ charge gimmick that are gone for good reasons)

just be mindful charging through certain difficult terrains. Since those types increases the charge needed by 2"

That was 7th Ed, wasn’t it?

 

 

Quote directly from 8th Ed handbook:

Models are slowed when charging across craters. If, when a unit charges, one or more of its models have to move across a crater, you must subtract 2" from the unit’s charge distance.

[ambit]

Dual Wielding Hand-Flamers should definately be a thing for Company Vets and Vanguard Vets.

 

I did a comparison with Storm Bolters for those units that can now take Hand Flamers (DW and BA).

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/bjahtr/blood_angels_company_veterans_and_deathwatch/

 

The key is to have a Lieutenant in range as the re-roll on wounds improves them alot (due to only being S3). 

 

5 Company Vets with JP and 2 Hand Flamers is 105.

5 Death Company with JP and Boltgun + Chainsword is 100.

 

They can both use the wound re-roll from the Lieutenant, but if you want 4 more DC instead (180pts total), they would be about the same price as a JP Lieutenant w Hand-Flamer and Chainsword (184 pts total).

 

So it's 9 DC vs 5 C Vets + Lieutenant

 

4.74 vs 14.97 in shooting against GEQ
11.85 vs 6.91 in combat against GEQ
16.59 vs 21.88 against GEQ - a difference of 5.29

 

1.78 vs 4.99 in shooting against MEQ
4.74 vs 2.76 in combat against MEQ
6.52 vs 7.75 against MEQ - a difference of 1.23

[Panzer]

 

 

I’m glad bolter dicipline still apply to bike, scouts ones were a lot better with it.

 

Also small note on fly: while you can’t charge and n’ignore building like bunkers, if your unit is intantry it still can move through ruins during said charge, so for any JP infantry it’s really coming back the way fly used to be as most terrains are ruins. (minus the 0’’ charge gimmick that are gone for good reasons)

just be mindful charging through certain difficult terrains. Since those types increases the charge needed by 2"

That was 7th Ed, wasn’t it?

 

It's in 8th as well but it depends on which type of terrain you charge through. Forests, craters and such substract 2" from the charge distance. Ruins do not (so completely irrelevant for the example Brother Crimson gave).

[Remtek]

I feel like hand flamers are not very functional even if the math is good. I would still prefer running vanguard vets with 5stormshields/15 chainswords with perhaps a thunderhammer or two.

[The Unseen]

I feel like hand flamers are not very functional even if the math is good. I would still prefer running vanguard vets with 5stormshields/15 chainswords with perhaps a thunderhammer or two.

Their quite good on a unit of DC your planning on forlorning up the field turn 1, for clearing screens and causing problems.

Otherwise range becomes an issue.

Vanguard have better options.

[Kaese]

I have had a couple of hand flamers on my DC just for the rule of cool. The range is a real issue and some games I haven't had the change to use them at all. It might be a different story if the main job would be to get to hand flamer range...

[Panzer]

With Handflamers you essentially play them the same way as with a melee loadout except that you aren't dependant on a charge roll.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

S3 hits like a wet blanket just saying .

[Panzer]

S3 hits like a wet blanket just saying .

It does, but the amount of hits is what's important here.

A unit of 5 with dual Handlfamers pours out on average 35 hits. That's ~15 dead Cultists or ~4 dead Marines.

[Captain_Krash]

S3 is not really the issue especially with the weight of shots your going to be throwing out. Guard would say otherwise entirely

 

Krash

[Jolemai]

Quite. I'll always use a frag grenade when the opportunity arises.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Well, statistically S3 vs T4/5 you have a 1 in 3 wound ratio. So it's all about weight of shots. If 10 dude bros average 30 auto hits you can reasonably expect at or around 10 armor saves.

 

But I've always felt you throw probability out the window during games. Yahtzeeing (tm. DBH) 1s and 6s is a thing.

[Remtek]

It's abit situational, if you are in range with hand flamers they are probably dieing in combat regardless except vs elite units. Could be handy if you play vs plaguebeaers alot, since they can have -2 to hit.

[Spagunk]

Truth be told, your going to want to be in charge range for anyone who needs to and hand flamers work perfectly for it.

 

So you're looking at about 6-8 inch distance to have a great charge chance. That's perfectly in range of hand flamers. However if you intend to dbl flamer vanvets, that's a bit of a risk. your melee potential isn't super high and wound allocation could screw up your charging distance.

 

That said, I feel like a single flamer, chain sword squad isn't a terrible idea for a cheap assault unit. Similar to storm Bolter vets but with the option for a full 10 man squad. Base 2 attacks is real handy for weight of fire, I feel. Slightly cheaper than DC but you're paying extra for an additional attack with DC

[Hintzy]

I did some quick calculations using MathHammer to compare DC and VV with hand flamers compared to their more typical load-out. The % numbers shown are the model's "Return on Investment."  Comparing a single DC (17 pts) or VV (14 pts) to their mathematically expected kills of GEQs (4 pts) or MEQs (13 pts).  I omitted the cost of the nearly mandatory jump pack on the DC and VV because it's the same cost for each (though I shouldn't have for the sake of more accurate percentages, the ratios should be the same).  The ROI includes the applicable ranged attacks plus the melee attacks, accounting for Red Thirst. The cost of the flamers was also added to the ROI calculation for the applicable encounters.  I did not do any calculations for VV equipped with CS and Storm Shield because that would almost certainly the lowest output, but the most durable, and I'm not smart enough to figure out the numerical value of survivability.

 

DC Vs GEQ

 

Bolter/CS 48.8%

Flamer/CS 58.844%

 

DC Vs MEQ

 

Bolter/CS 62.324%

Flamer/CS 70.922%

 

VV Vs GEQ

 

Bolt Pistol/CS 40.2%

Flamer/CS 60.747%

Flamer/Flamer 76.85%

CS/CS 42.314%

 

VV Vs MEQ

 

Bolt Pistol/CS 51.536%

Flamer/CS 72.193%

Flamer/Flamer 87.263%

CS/CS 55.064%

 

As folks have already concluded, the flamer is worth its single point, and upgrades the effectiveness of the Marine holding it in every case.  Notably the double flamer VV are standouts because they still get two melee attacks (which I initially forgot to include).  I double checked everything, but if anybody sees any faults with my outcomes let me know.  Again everything was just plugged into MathHammer, if there's any flaws with that system I'm not aware of them.

 

Despite the ROI being higher for the VV I think the winner is actually the DC.  Considering DC can Forlorn Fury up the board to easily within reach of the enemy's deployment zone on the first turn the flamers should certainly be within range in a typical scenario, whereas the flamers on the VV won't be in range if they deep strike, which I believe is likely the  most probable scenario.  If they were foot-slogged up the board they still probably wouldn't have a target on turn one, and would obviously be subject to your opponent's efforts to remove them.

 

An interesting side note is that hand flamers should actually do more damage to T8 models than bolters, since S3 and S4 both wound on 6's at that point.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I see a flamer unit best as being there for area denial and using overwatch .

[Demoulius]

 

S3 hits like a wet blanket just saying .

It does, but the amount of hits is what's important here.

A unit of 5 with dual Handlfamers pours out on average 35 hits. That's ~15 dead Cultists or ~4 dead Marines.

 

Park a cheap lietenant behind them for added lulz.

[Kaese]

I see a flamer unit best as being there for area denial and using overwatch .

Flamers are good for this in general, but the 6” range for hand flamers makes it more difficult. 6” charge is quite reliable, so the enemy can deny overwatch by charging 6.1” away.

 

D6 for hand flamers sounds good on paper, but it is difficult to get any use out of it in game. It should be easy for the opponent to deny if you have a squad full of hand flamers. If only pistols could be fired after advance...

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

I see a flamer unit best as being there for area denial and using overwatch .

Flamers are good for this in general, but the 6” range for hand flamers makes it more difficult. 6” charge is quite reliable, so the enemy can deny overwatch by charging 6.1” away.

 

D6 for hand flamers sounds good on paper, but it is difficult to get any use out of it in game. It should be easy for the opponent to deny if you have a squad full of hand flamers. If only pistols could be fired after advance...

On a side note, you can use the hand flamers to burn down a bubble wrap and still charge as needed. If your opponent charges you from 6.1" away whatever survives is going to blast them in the shooting phase.

 

I would use them in a 10 man unit at least.

[Panzer]

I can just repeat myself, treat them as a melee unit. They need to get as close as melee units anyway.

Whether you actually charge something or not is up to you and depends on the situation. Keep in mind that you can still fall back and keep flaming with Jump Packs though.