BA FAQ/Errata Spring 2019

[Hintzy]

One thing I just noticed after re-reading the Fly keyword revision:

 

Models can move through other models in the movement and charge phase, but not in the fight phase. So I still can't hop a few DC over the top of their target to pin them in combat more easily with pile in and consolidate moves.

 

Is that consistent with everybody else's understanding?

[RyanT2112]

Do people forget that 5 Infiltrators at 120 pts are 10 wounds, 3+ save, can deploy like scouts, and have better 'bolters' than scouts, have 11 attacks, and are only 10 more points than scouts? Now wait, they're a 3+ save...2+ in cover....

 

5 scouts 55 pts, 5 wounds, 6 attacks (7 with chainsword), bolters

10 scouts 110 pts, 10 wounds, 12 attacks (sgt w/ chainsword) bolters, 4+ save all the time, 3+ in cover

 

5 infiltrators, 120 pts, 10 wounds, 12 attacks (with chainsword) 3+ save all the time, 2+ in cover, enemy denial of deployment 12" - superior "bolter"

 

I'd say infiltrators are properly priced.

 

The difference is that infiltrators are expensive for their minimal size. But the price for their effectiveness literally makes them better than scouts.

[Karhedron]

Infiltrators are better than Scouts but they are not twice as good as Scouts and are twice the price.

 

If you give Scouts Bolters then they have twice the firepower of Infiltrators for the points and comparable wounds and attacks.

 

If you give the Scouts CCWs they have twice the attacks of Infiltrators and same wounds albeit poorer firepower.

 

What this means is that to get the same effectiveness out of Infiltrators as Scouts you have to leverage both their firepower and their shooting throughout the game or they will lose out. Bolter scouts are effective just by providing cheap shooting while combat Scouts can be effective just by assaulting a suitable target.

[Panzer]

Do people forget that 5 Infiltrators at 120 pts are 10 wounds, 3+ save, can deploy like scouts, and have better 'bolters' than scouts, have 11 attacks, and are only 10 more points than scouts? Now wait, they're a 3+ save...2+ in cover....

 

5 scouts 55 pts, 5 wounds, 6 attacks (7 with chainsword), bolters

10 scouts 110 pts, 10 wounds, 12 attacks (sgt w/ chainsword) bolters, 4+ save all the time, 3+ in cover

 

5 infiltrators, 120 pts, 10 wounds, 12 attacks (with chainsword) 3+ save all the time, 2+ in cover, enemy denial of deployment 12" - superior "bolter"

 

I'd say infiltrators are properly priced.

 

The difference is that infiltrators are expensive for their minimal size. But the price for their effectiveness literally makes them better than scouts.

 

Nobody forgot any of those things. You don't take Scouts for their wounds, for their armour or for their damage output though. You take Scouts for the infiltration and because they are cheap. So you pay a lot of points for things you don't really want on Infiltrators. If I want infiltration or cheap troop units I go with Scouts, if I want durability and damage output I go with Intercessors.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The only advantage for scouts over Infiltrators is points and we know that GW will eventually drop the points. Scouts with bolters are no match versus Infiltrators.

[Karhedron]

The only advantage for scouts over Infiltrators is points and we know that GW will eventually drop the points. Scouts with bolters are no match versus Infiltrators.

 

I am not sure I would agree there. 110 points gets you 5 Infiltrators or 10 Scouts. Same wounds and CC attacks but the Scouts get twice as many bolter attacks. You can give the Serg extra weapon options, take a heavy bolter for the Hellfire stratagem or even give them camo cloaks so the armour save matches the Infiltrators.

 

If/when GW drop the price of Infiltrators, I will take another look at them. As it stands, I would take Scouts over Infiltrators, even with the bolter loadout.

[Charlo]

I do wonder just how good mass hand flamers may be? While they aren't too great on the drop (9" too long) but a few units of DC with HF and Chainswords put out a LOT of hits on anything.

 

To quote a swell guy from a cousin legion:

 

KILL, MAIM, BURN!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

The only advantage for scouts over Infiltrators is points and we know that GW will eventually drop the points. Scouts with bolters are no match versus Infiltrators.

 

 

I am not sure I would agree there. 110 points gets you 5 Infiltrators or 10 Scouts. Same wounds and CC attacks but the Scouts get twice as many bolter attacks. You can give the Serg extra weapon options, take a heavy bolter for the Hellfire stratagem or even give them camo cloaks so the armour save matches the Infiltrators.

 

If/when GW drop the price of Infiltrators, I will take another look at them. As it stands, I would take Scouts over Infiltrators, even with the bolter loadout.

Infiltrators don’t need camo cloaks with the 3+ armor save. The inbuilt pushback is huge versus a lot of competitive armies such as GSC and Orks. They also auto wound on 6s to hit with their bolters. For BA I don’t see the need for Bolter Scouts tbh.

[Lynnean]

I do wonder just how good mass hand flamers may be? While they aren't too great on the drop (9" too long) but a few units of DC with HF and Chainswords put out a LOT of hits on anything.

 

To quote a swell guy from a cousin legion:

 

KILL, MAIM, BURN!

I'm wondering the same thing, but getting them close would be the tricky part I think.

[Morticon]

 

I do wonder just how good mass hand flamers may be? While they aren't too great on the drop (9" too long) but a few units of DC with HF and Chainswords put out a LOT of hits on anything.

 

To quote a swell guy from a cousin legion:

 

KILL, MAIM, BURN!

I'm wondering the same thing, but getting them close would be the tricky part I think.

 

 

Forlorn Fury.  Deploy them aggressively, combo with Princeps Phobos Libby and if you dont go first or get seized on, move them to safety. 

[The Unseen]

 

 

The only advantage for scouts over Infiltrators is points and we know that GW will eventually drop the points. Scouts with bolters are no match versus Infiltrators.

 

I am not sure I would agree there. 110 points gets you 5 Infiltrators or 10 Scouts. Same wounds and CC attacks but the Scouts get twice as many bolter attacks. You can give the Serg extra weapon options, take a heavy bolter for the Hellfire stratagem or even give them camo cloaks so the armour save matches the Infiltrators.

 

If/when GW drop the price of Infiltrators, I will take another look at them. As it stands, I would take Scouts over Infiltrators, even with the bolter loadout.

Infiltrators don’t need camo cloaks with the 3+ armor save. The inbuilt pushback is huge versus a lot of competitive armies such as GSC and Orks. They also auto wound on 6s to hit with their bolters. For BA I don’t see the need for Bolter Scouts tbh.

The point was is that if you give scouts cloaks, they have the same save in cover as the infiltrators is all.

And autowounding on bolters doesn't stop it being a single bolter on a 22 pt model.

2 bolters is only a tiny bit worse than twice as good as 1 bolter that autowounds on 6s.

 

Basic scouts give the same pushback by having twice as many models, and are more durable/damaging. If the 3" of extra denial is important, I counter with saying if someone wants to send a unit from reserve into killing 5 scouts, and probaby spending cp or at least limited use abilities and leave their melee unit exposed in front of my army, that's fine. It's only 65 pts.

 

Enjoy infiltrators if you want, but they're objectively worse than scouts by any metric you care to use beyond rule of cool.

 

And Forlorn Fury DC are the only way I see hand flamers getting into range reliably.

But I think that particular combo is quite good and assisting in chaff clearance.

[Lemondish]

The point was is that if you give scouts cloaks, they have the same save in cover as the infiltrators is all.

And autowounding on bolters doesn't stop it being a single bolter on a 22 pt model.

2 bolters is only a tiny bit worse than twice as good as 1 bolter that autowounds on 6s.

 

A few points here. Yes, scouts in cover with camo cloaks maintain the same cover save as Infiltrators in cover, but they are also much squishier when not in cover or when you're facing units or armies that ignore cover. They also benefit from an built-in healer and a way to acquire an extra -1 to hit. As a screening unit, that's pretty amazing. 

 

I will also caution you against trying to present the firepower of your screening units as valuable enough to weigh the choice. It really isn't. An extra bolter shot is not really what you should find particularly enticing when choosing between two units. Your scouts, and likewise your Infiltrators, will not be the units you rely upon to pour fire into your main targets.

 

Basic scouts give the same pushback by having twice as many models, and are more durable/damaging. If the 3" of extra denial is important, I counter with saying if someone wants to send a unit from reserve into killing 5 scouts, and probaby spending cp or at least limited use abilities and leave their melee unit exposed in front of my army, that's fine. It's only 65 pts.

 

This is actually completely wrong. Scouts cannot ever provide the same deep strike push back that Infiltrators can because units can still drop within 9'' of them. Given the plethora of ways to make a 9'' charge much more reliable, this is 9'' of charge distance, 3'' of pile in, and an additional 3'' of consolidate that the unit gets to benefit from. For an army like marines which traditionally has difficulty countering mobility and speed, this is pretty big. You deny units that teleport up (like Da Jump) or drop in and charge the extra movement they benefit from. 

 

Extra movement and board control gained during the charge phase is a tactic used by a variety of the biggest names in this game today. Nick Nanavati ran a whole series of blog posts about what it can do for cracking screens. Do not discount the value here just because a scout squad with two bodies per Infiltrator can hold a bit more physical ground as an Infiltrator squad with one when the real benefit comes from those massive movement tricks. If you're confident you can cede half the board to an aggressive opponent early and gather it later, then sure - scouts can maybe be all you need. But the next statement is where I will vehemently disagree with you on.

 

Enjoy infiltrators if you want, but they're objectively worse than scouts by any metric you care to use beyond rule of cool.

 

Scouts are objectively worse in a handful of ways as well. They aren't as resilient in a huge variety of cases and so don't have the staying power of Infiltrators and they do not provide the same deep strike (or deep strike equivalent) denial as Infiltrators.

 

The downsides of Infiltrators are that they require a commitment to really get the most out of them. They aren't plug and play speed bump/CP battery units like Scouts. For other marine forces outside of BA, I've found Infiltrators have been true MVPs in a variety of situations. I know BA tend to value CP more than codex marines, so it's entirely up to the player to decide which way to go, but I think it's wrong to state that they are objectively worse in all metrics. 

 

The decision isn't as cut and dry as you have presented it, and that is what makes these units interesting. 

[Panzer]

Keep in mind that Infiltrators lose a LOT of their durability compared to Scouts once the opponent decides to direct multi-damage weaponry at them. 5 Infiltrators and 10 Scouts might have the same number of wounds but that's only relevant against D1 weapons.

[shanewatts]

Basic scouts give the same pushback by having twice as many models, and are more durable/damaging. If the 3" of extra denial is important, I counter with saying if someone wants to send a unit from reserve into killing 5 scouts, and probaby spending cp or at least limited use abilities and leave their melee unit exposed in front of my army, that's fine. It's only 65 pts.

 

Enjoy infiltrators if you want, but they're objectively worse than scouts by any metric you care to use beyond rule of cool.

 

I disagree here simply because any unit from reserve can wrap a scout unit, you can't wrap infiltrators. It isn't a matter of killing them on arrival, its a matter of making your shooting worthless vs that unit and all the characters behind it, and during the fight phase on your turn they kill those 5-10 scouts and they are in your lines with minimal casualties.

 

Sidenote: What does this have to do with the FAQ?

[Lemondish]

Keep in mind that Infiltrators lose a LOT of their durability compared to Scouts once the opponent decides to direct multi-damage weaponry at them. 5 Infiltrators and 10 Scouts might have the same number of wounds but that's only relevant against D1 weapons.

I am totally okay with an opponent feeling they need to spend multi-damage weaponry on screening units over my heavy hitters. That is actually a pro for Infiltrators that isn't shared by other Primaris options. Intercessors need to survive to get to an objective, and Aggressors, Inceptors, Suppressors, Reivers, and Eliminators want to be left alone to pump out some damage.

 

If I have to sacrifice my Infiltrators early on instead of that fire hitting more elite units, then I can use that to my advantage.

 

An advantage I cannot acquire when Scouts die so easily.

[Panzer]

It's not so much that they draw multi-damage to themselves. They die fast enough for their points against single damage weapons already. It's just that IF the opponent has multi-damage shots to spare to direct them at infiltrators they die much faster than scouts.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Sorry that makes no sense whatsoever.

[Lemondish]

It's not so much that they draw multi-damage to themselves. They die fast enough for their points against single damage weapons already. It's just that IF the opponent has multi-damage shots to spare to direct them at infiltrators they die much faster than scouts.

 

Can you explain this a bit more? I'm honestly not trying to misunderstand, but I'm not sure your position makes much sense as written here. I'm not entirely convinced the scenario of an opponent having absolutely no other target for multi-damage weapons is a realistic or common occurrence, and so I don't see much value in building a list to address it. 

 

If scouts are considered an efficient choice for their points, and it takes more firepower from single damage weapons to remove a single Infiltrator than it does to remove 2 scouts, then that would mean Infiltrators are superior for their points to scouts, so I'm going to disagree with the statement "they die fast enough for their points". 

[Morticon]

I'm happy to let the discussion on this continue, providing its respectful, gents.

 

I don't mind the debate and disagreement, it's healthy. 

 

But keep it cordial, thanks.  

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

What’s your opinion on Infiltrators versus Scouts ?

[Lemondish]

I'm happy to let the discussion on this continue, providing its respectful, gents.

 

I don't mind the debate and disagreement, it's healthy.

 

But keep it cordial, thanks.

 

 

Not sure there's much left to say regarding the value of Infiltrators, though I would like to hear a lot more about what scouts can do for you. I'd share my successful experiences, but then it would really just be me talking to myself again. Nasty habit.

 

Haven't had a chance to really try out jump pack units following the fix to fly. Has anyone had some experiences there?

[Morticon]

What’s your opinion on Infiltrators versus Scouts ?

I'm frustratingly middle of the road.  I can see their application in some metas.  If your regular opponents are Orks or GSC or striking Chaos they can be really handy to prevent game-changing assaults.  But, its an interesting use - because for me, I don't use my scouts to prevent the enemy from getting to my *scouts* - I prevent them from getting to my meaty stuff zonally blocked by the scouts.  The scouts are almost protective lures - and if they do get in to the scouts, that's great, I can bring my counter assault and close range firepower to bare. 

 

I also wind up using my scouts as objective holders (in ITC format) in different quadrants.  55 points on an objective is not going to cost my list anything in terms of efficiency - especially when they're contributing to game points.  I cant use the Infiltrators in the same role.  

 

But that last point bares further expanding, too.   Even though they have near identical abilities they have different applications because of their respective strengths (and weaknesses).  I will definitely be trying out a full squad of ten - but only because Id like to see how they play off-paper. I have my assumptions, like everyone else, and I have my concerns - a squad of 15 lootas for a similar price will remove them from play comfortably, for example.  But, Id still like to try them with a phobos libby and perhaps with a Sanguinary Ancient. 

 

Would I use them regularly? Unless I can find a combo that i think is very good in a meta environment that lends itself to inclusion, then it's a hard no.  I'd almost always have an additional squad of scouts - BUT....i will definitely be using them to see how they play before I put my stamp of "meh" on them. 

 

 

 

I'm happy to let the discussion on this continue, providing its respectful, gents.

 

I don't mind the debate and disagreement, it's healthy.

 

But keep it cordial, thanks.

 

Not sure there's much left to say regarding the value of Infiltrators, though I would like to hear a lot more about what scouts can do for you. I'd share my successful experiences, but then it would really just be me talking to myself again. Nasty habit.

 

Haven't had a chance to really try out jump pack units following the fix to fly. Has anyone had some experiences there?

 

I havent had a chance to test out the "fix" - although, as noted elsewhere, sadly its just on the charge move, rather than the pile in and consolidate- which I would have preferred to be honest! 

 

As for the scouts, I think they're gold - for many of the reasons listed above.

[Remtek]

Not sure on infiltrators vs GSC, but i play a ton vs orks. Most of the time it's incorrect to use da jump to for example do a first turn charge. Since they will probably chew through some screens and then die not being supported by any other ork units. That being said i still think they are great in the ork matchup, but i just don't think they 'hard counter' deepstriking lists. They are quite expensive for a 2 wound model with a bolter. Personally i would rather take intercessors for efficiency or scouts if i need the points for something else.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I tend to deploy mine out of line of sight to avoid things like Lootaz.

[shanewatts]

I am really surprised that the consensus seems to be that deepstrikers kill scouts and then get shot.

 

It is very easy to lock these units in combat to prevent getting shot.