Well, its official (Spring 2019 Update)

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

SFTS is no longer Beta. It (and its derivatives) have been made official and are unchanged per today's release.

Cant say I'm surprised, but I was holding out hope.

Also Bolter Beta Rule got nerfed, heh.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/04/29/warhammer-40000-update-april-2019-gw-homepage-post-2/

[thewarriorhunter]

Yeah I was really bummed to see that SFTS stayed how it was. I was hoping they would at least change it to be 'pay if you want to do it'. As it stands the potential to waste the CP is there, which sucks.

 

Also they clarified that you can't use Flak Missiles or Hellfire Shells with the Cherub to get two shots per 1 CP, you'd have to spend the CP twice. What's interesting about that is they've essentially broken their own rules to allow the same stratagem to be used more than once in the same phase.

[Panzer]

 

Also they clarified that you can't use Flak Missiles or Hellfire Shells with the Cherub to get two shots per 1 CP, you'd have to spend the CP twice. What's interesting about that is they've essentially broken their own rules to allow the same stratagem to be used more than once in the same phase.

They unfortunately didn't break their own rule as they added a little "(subject to the usual restrictions)".

You can still use it multiple times per phase outside of Matched play.

[MajorNese]

Well, the Shadowspear FAQ invalidated at least one combo. As one WL trait allows repositioning infantry units, it's now FAQed to not include Concealed Positions and similar rules - just the deployment zone and that's it. Repositioning Infiltrators for first turn charges doesn't work any more, just pulling them back to deployment zone if going second.

 

Otherwise, I'm fine with the changes. Even if my castellan got more expensive, and the atropos loses the option for a 3++. Those were some of the sillier options to be honest, even if I played these guys just once or twice a year. At least a lot of hardcore combos were removed and loopholes plugged, that will help.

 

Bolter Discipline not working for all vehicles is a bummer for my Repulsor, but the Redemptor is still throwing out lead like candy. First step of ETL will be painting up its brother...

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

The bolter discipline thing is so weird to me. The vehicles that benefited from it most - Storm Ravens and Land Raider Crusaders (and I guess that one Dark Angel flyer)- Did they really think they were going to be a problem with the previous iteration of the rule?

 

Dont worry though, you're still incentivized to walk your Ironclad up the board!

[Panzer]

Pretty sure the change in Bolter Discipline wasn't about balance. It's just a thematic ajdustment. They want the rule to represent how well Marines use handheld Bolter, not how well Bolter on their vehicles work. It's a sad nerf for the LRC compared to the beta version unfortunately but let's be happy that at least Dreadnoughts were allowed to keep it. ^^

[thewarriorhunter]

While I agree that it was a thematic rule I think SM players are a little salty for it because it was something special that our vehicles got. I realize it was beta and not finalized but for a few months we got a taste of something being given to us and it was then ripped away.

[MajorNese]

Yeah...let's face it, many of our vehicles are overshadowed hard by other factions' equivalent. Bolter Discipline affecting vehicles would have been a first step to give them something, to get them at least a bit in the right direction. Not that it would get them on par with some of the more useful stuff out there, so this is hardly gamebreaking for me to have it or not have it, so it could be worse. Right now, everyone (including the redshirt army of the imperium) knows better how to operate tanks than the supposed elite of humanity and their ancient high-quality wargear.

 

Our primary MBT is the predator, and comparing it to let's say the onager (has identical role and base profile) is just frustrating.

Onager has Chapter Tactics ("Forgeworld"), Canticles, 5++ (reroll 1s), morale buff aura, better gun, no penalty for moving heavy weapons, strat for +2 to hit and lots of repair options.

Predator has more sponson options, and costs more.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

On the upside, the changes to Fly make using cheap MSU assault squads to tie up enemy weapons teams a possible thing again. And of course if you like to use a Vanguard Vet bomb to disrupt/destroy, that got amped up too.

 

Honestly what saddens me the most is when I read that Fly was reverted back to its prior state of jumping models/terrain, I immediately went back to considering running my Supreme Command of 3x Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbikes again. 

 

*Note: edited title to accurately reflect discussion*

[ambit]

I actually think the change to Princeps of Deceit works well for Raven Guard if you combo it with Strike from the Shadows. They are still re-deploying in your deployment zone, then moving 9" before the start of turn 1. Assuming you can redeploy 1+ unit of Aggressors, that 9" move could put them in double tap range of something that they thought was safe.

[MajorNese]

I actually think the change to Princeps of Deceit works well for Raven Guard if you combo it with Strike from the Shadows. They are still re-deploying in your deployment zone, then moving 9" before the start of turn 1. Assuming you can redeploy 1+ unit of Aggressors, that 9" move could put them in double tap range of something that they thought was safe.

Yeah, I guess that still works. PoD and SftS trigger at the same point in the game, so I guess you can choose which one first. And SftS is now a move, not a (re)deployment, so it shouldn't interact with the PoD restrictions to just the regular deployment.

 

Interesting to see how the sneaky specialists' abilities are mostly used to improve the steamroll units. Giving +1 BS (WL trait) is better used on Hellblasters than Eliminators for example.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

 

Interesting to see how the sneaky specialists' abilities are mostly used to improve the steamroll units. Giving +1 BS (WL trait) is better used on Hellblasters than Eliminators for example.

 

 

Yea, ain't that the truth. Space Marines (I think maybe more than any other dex) feel like they lean heaviest on "buff this one unit up as much as possible". Its usually pretty common for us to leverage Chapter Tactic/Strategem/WL Trait all together (and sometimes psychic power) to get as much as we can out of units like that.

[MajorNese]

 

 

Interesting to see how the sneaky specialists' abilities are mostly used to improve the steamroll units. Giving +1 BS (WL trait) is better used on Hellblasters than Eliminators for example.

Yea, ain't that the truth. Space Marines (I think maybe more than any other dex) feel like they lean heaviest on "buff this one unit up as much as possible". Its usually pretty common for us to leverage Chapter Tactic/Strategem/WL Trait all together (and sometimes psychic power) to get as much as we can out of units like that.

Yeah, stacking buffs is something that makes marines work, but others hate them for it. Especially with Chapter Master upgrade/named char that has further bubbles like SoF to hand out. Other armies rarely have that level of buffs around, but in our case it might balance some of our shortcomings in the codex (like no chapter tactics on vehicles).

 

The most extreme case I've seen so far was a tournament list back in the day, before the Rule of 3...bare SoF chapter master, bare lieutenant, 4x storm cannon leviathan, 4x whirlwind. 1750p (IIRC) of pure unkillable walking dakka, rerolling almost everything, with the whirlwinds staying in the back. That was rather unpleasant...

[Dracos]

I hope this sounds more analytical than whining ;) but when you have so few units that are truly effective (unlike the Eldar Codex where you can randomly open a page and find at least two on each) that forces competitive players to lean heavy on any crutch they can find. I come from an era pre-stratagem and Chapter Tactics were moderate st most for Astartes. (Pre-5th edition) so this has been all new to me. I’m enjoying it but I hope the 2.0 Codex gives us a better take all comers ability.

 

Make Marines Elite Again!

[MajorNese]

Yeah, the only "elite" marines right now are primaris, which is hardly surprising as the translation to 8th edition left most profiles as they were before, including the "go-to average" of the oldmarine and the established go-to imperial weaponry. Unchanged, a lot of these "codex relics" are a long way from where they were first designed, leading to quite a few units unusable against newer stuff. Prime example would have been last edition - new or casual players fielding a fluffy battle company with tacs, assault squads and devs against quad riptide or serpent/D-spam + seerstar was simply bollocks. But this edition has a lot less reasons to complain, as marines are always playable outside of the competitive area, unlike last edition where facing certain armies without the one competitive marine formation (the one requiring 10 rhinos/pods) decided the game before it even started.

 

But I guess there's a reason why marines lean heavily on character-based buffs - they are supposed to bei the ancient heroes, doing heroic deeds and singlehandedly fight like no one else could. Most 40k video games and old apocalypse rules work on a similar basis too - heroes with buffs are the way to make the army work, just like guard has their orders and other armies their chaos gods/psychic powers/markerlights/whatever. They hand out above average buffs, in return the units they apply to have less special rules out of the box.

 

There are quite a few unusable units in our codex, but steering around those still leaves enough options. Unlike niche armies like AdMech, marines have an insane amount of units, especially when looking at index/FW too.

[thewarriorhunter]

I always feel like I don't have enough bodies to compete with what I'm playing against. I don't have enough dice to throw when I'm attacking (Bolter discipline makes that a little better), and I have way too many to throw when I'm saving.

 

Maybe I'm doing it wrong but I feel like when I play I'm always a step behind and I have no way to catch up. I guess I need to get more primaris painted up and on the table...

[Panzer]

You know why you feel like that? Because many Space Marines are overcosted. Some more, some less. So you can't just throw unit at unit and see how things go like other armies often can do. You need to stack buffs on one devastating unit so that unit can make up for where the rest of the army is lacking.

[MajorNese]

Part of that issue would be that marines were intended as an elite army, but turned into an attrition army over the past few editions. Now it is somewhere inbetween - too expensive per model to be an attrition army, too fragile and too little output to be an elite army. Primaris somewhat push that back into the elite direction (2W and more shots or AP) to make them feel more like they are supposed to be, but against certain armies still vaporize quickly. They work in a number of ways, but the jack-of-all-trades approach turned them into some weird inbetween that is not efficient in one certain area (Tau outshoot them, Orks out-CC them, Custodes out-elite them,...).

[ShinyRhino]

That's a good point on the Character bluffs. They do seem to make or break the army. The frustrating thing is that every Chapter boils down to Gunline/Buffcastle lists. With all the snipers out there now, you have to run multiples of each character, which grates on my fluff-nerves.

It's also a good way to lose ITC missions and have zero fun doing it.

[Panzer]

I honestly still haven't faced many snipers that made me worry. The Vindicare is scary but most other are okay-ish against Marine HQs, especially if they have an invul.

[ShinyRhino]

Around here it seems like every Imperial player uses a stable of Assassins and 85 free points in their lists, meaning the Vindicare sees a lot of play.

[Dracos]

85 Reserve points ;) you mean :)

 

Which now cost 2 CP before the game begins. I liked it at 1 but at 2 it’s a tougher decision. Matter of fact it’s more likely to push me toward collecting a DIY of the Loyal 32 just for the CP if I can get tournament ready this year. I’d prefer to avoid it as the models for Guard need a reworked true scale version to interest me. I do find it a fluffy detachment though and trying to build a second battalion of competitive Primaris models is almost impossible from a points availability perspective (imo) Not that I won’t try but if I go to a tournament I definitely see a version of the 32 making the table with my Warhawks.

[Nusquam]

I'm disappointed by the SftS, Bolter Dis, and Deceit nerfs; it feels like they put marines under a microscope and barely touch other factions. Marines didn't need these nerfs.

 

I expected it though. My Raptors are just Manlets for Issodon and Vanguard now. All my other Primaris were stripped and are DW now so I can deepstrike them and take advantage of Fortis teams.

[Kua]

What was the SftS nerf about in the first place? Was it used for something unintended?

I mean, the RG chapter was mainly chosen for its -1 to hit chapter tactics, wasn't it?

[Dracos]

Aggessors + original SftS = dead Primarchs

 

 

Still not worried though. I expect CSM 2.0 out this year and the picture should brighten (not blazingly but better :))