Obliterators worth using?

[Belley]

With the point increase from 65 to 115 are obliterators worth taking? 115 seems far too high for them to be viable in a competitive list.

 

They have gone from a decently pointed unit to completely over pointed unit.

[Doom Herald]

The 65 points was a coppy paste error. They underwent a total revamp and a point reassessment was in order. 115 is probably too high and will likely be reassessed. The reason they made this immediate change was because they had to correct their mistakes. I'm going to try them out, Slaaneshi with multiple models per unit for greater usage from endless cacophony. Nurgle camping out with Gnarlmaws or deepstriked with Gnarlmaws would be good. Finally Tzeentch with all the daemon buffs to ranged weapons is good too.

 

In my opinion, they need a point reduction, but I'm going to give them a shot before I make a big deal.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

115pts is the correct points compared to Havocs and Combi-Plasma Terminators, the two most similar units to Oblits. I ran the numbers on them at this price a few weeks back. You can read about it here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354898-havoc-mathhammer/page-2?do=findComment&comment=5288568

 

Basically, Havocs have slightly better damage output but worse melee and defense. Plasma terminators have slightly better damage with shooting and melee and better durability, but have much less range. Oblits are internally consistent at 115pts BEFORE you start factoring in that they have the Daemon Keyword, which unlocks a huge amount of really good buffs. And they let you stack the largest concentration of points into a single unit (except for 10 combi-plas terminators), and so benefit most from stratagems.

 

Oblits are blatantly the best choice over the others if you are running them as slaanesh due to Cacophany, or as Nurgle with allied daemons and a tree to give them 0+ armor saves. But even if you use them as Khorne or Tzeentch, they still do well with just VotLW.

[Syrakul]

Also looks like you reroll their fleshmetal each time you shoot (in case of cacaphony) now instead of once per phase, so they are more unreliable. They went from 3 models/9 wounds/12 shots for 195 pts to 2 models/8 wounds/12 shots for 230 points. Power Fist equivs are more Jack of all trades nonsense they will have no use out of. They had a decent chance in the old version but I would still get mediocre results with them even with cacaphony and reroll to hit, Now I won't bother running them in favour of more contemptors/Havocs with reliable long range shooting.

[MegaVolt87]

Way too many points to compete in the Heavy slot for CSM. If they were elites, I could see a case for them though the points are still too much. 85-90 points each would have been a better middle ground IMO. 

[Prot]

I think almost everything from Shadowspear is a bit overcosted. Oblits are there too.... I think that's why Havocs were released separately. They are more efficient and as a stand alone unit they're hard to beat (not counting support stuff/psychics/trees,etc).

 

Thankfully I always played them at 115, but anyone used to using them at 65 is going to hate this FAQ. :)

[dice4thedicegod]

Anyone who used the new obliterator datasheet at only 65 points deserves this faq

[Belley]

Anyone who used the new obliterator datasheet at only 65 points deserves this faq

Yes because they made the nice looking models be relegated to the shelf until they put the points to a reasonable level.

[Panzer]

I'd say they are still worth using at 115ppm though. Banning them to the shelf is overreacting at its best.

[dice4thedicegod]

115 is more reasonable than 65

[Frostglaive]

I've been using them at their Shadowspear cost, even with the 2nd ed codex misprint. And even at 115pts per model, they've been doing some great work for me so far. I'd say they're worth their cost.

[Prot]

Purely speculative... I would have put them at about 100. Like so many things in 40K it would have got cheaper but not so much so that it's making a massive difference. So while I feel they are slightly overcosted, there's no way I would have put them at 65.

 

I saw people at my local store using them at 65 with 3 squads, and full Havocs... I told them they were going to be sorely disappointed because it was over kill.

[HeresyBeliever]

My problem with them being 115 points you can have a helbrute for 120ish points with twin las and missile. 

 

Better T/S better range more wounds 

Cant deep strike but doesn't need to 

Can't use VOLW 

[Dallas Drake]

My problem with them being 115 points you can have a helbrute for 120ish points with twin las and missile. 

 

Better T/S better range more wounds 

Cant deep strike but doesn't need to 

Can't use VOLW 

 

Helbrute isn't infantry or daemon though so it depends on what you want.

 

I've used 3 next to a Gnarlmaw and they are really good. 115 is probably a touch overcosted but it's not pricing them out off the game unless you're going to the big tournaments and trying to take on Knights and Aeldari cheese.

[Panzer]

My problem with them being 115 points you can have a helbrute for 120ish points with twin las and missile. 

 

Better T/S better range more wounds 

Cant deep strike but doesn't need to 

Can't use VOLW 

Less armour, not infantry (which also helps gaining cover).

[Scourged]

I think part of it is the new unit may need an alternative way of thinking about their use. I haven't tested it yet, but my thinking of them is less of a "delete button squad," just using one as a type of assassin. Better offense and defense make a solo oblit a bit more attractive. And a single model has a small-ish footprint to fit into tight places. Basically, using it as a scalpel instead of a sledgehammer. Then, heck, go for a charge to be a further nuisance and maybe keep it safe. Mark it Nurgle and use the strat to heal it later if it's alive.

 

But, like I said, I've yet to test of its worth it, at that cost.

[Tokugawa]

Every chaos player i known read 65pts as a print error, and no one hurried to purchase "65pts ob models".

 

However, 115pts is painfully overcosted. I expect it become 100~105 in ca19 or later patches.

 

Now the only advantage i could think is...when you active cacophony, a new ob unit shoot 18 more shots, instead of 12 more shots.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Guys I feel like a broken record but 115 is literally not overcosted compared to havocs, by the numbers. If they were cheaper, then they'd beat havocs on firepower AND durability, even before buffs and strats, which would make them totally broken. This unit literally cannot get any cheaper without breaking the internal balance, and could probably be more expensive and still be must take in competitive lists due to strats.

[Prot]

Guys I feel like a broken record but 115 is literally not overcosted compared to havocs, by the numbers. If they were cheaper, then they'd beat havocs on firepower AND durability, even before buffs and strats, which would make them totally broken. This unit literally cannot get any cheaper without breaking the internal balance, and could probably be more expensive and still be must take in competitive lists due to strats.

 

So this isn't a hard stand point for me. I'm not going to die on this particular mountain.... but let's just say you come to my side of the argument... and we split the difference. This would make each Oblit... 105 (nice round number). 

 

105 x 3 = 315. 

 

Who cares, right? What am I doing with that 30 points that's going to win me my next tournament? 

 

That's why I think at the end of the day these arguments are just silly. I remember when Custodes Termies came down in points and everyone was estatic until they realized they could only afford an extra Misericordia on a dude or two. lol

[Panzer]

 

Guys I feel like a broken record but 115 is literally not overcosted compared to havocs, by the numbers. If they were cheaper, then they'd beat havocs on firepower AND durability, even before buffs and strats, which would make them totally broken. This unit literally cannot get any cheaper without breaking the internal balance, and could probably be more expensive and still be must take in competitive lists due to strats.

 

So this isn't a hard stand point for me. I'm not going to die on this particular mountain.... but let's just say you come to my side of the argument... and we split the difference. This would make each Oblit... 105 (nice round number). 

 

105 x 3 = 315. 

 

Who cares, right? What am I doing with that 30 points that's going to win me my next tournament? 

 

That's why I think at the end of the day these arguments are just silly. I remember when Custodes Termies came down in points and everyone was estatic until they realized they could only afford an extra Misericordia on a dude or two. lol

 

I wish I still had "likes" left, so here get a thumbs up instead :tu:

[Excessus]

My problem with them being 115 points you can have a helbrute for 120ish points with twin las and missile. 

 

Better T/S better range more wounds 

Cant deep strike but doesn't need to 

Can't use VOLW 

 

With Helbrutes being T7 and Oblits T5, there are a ton of weapons that actually doesn't care about those differences. S4 wound both on 5+ and S8-9 wound on 3+, so all bolters, missile launchers, lascannons and such.

 

Oblits have better save, and are smaller and thus easier to get into cover or hide.

 

Oblits doesn't have to stand still to fire at full Bs while Helbrutes has to.

 

Oblits have more synergy with the rest of the army since they are infantry and daemons, making them good targets for MoPs, strategems and other stuff.

 

Helbrutes on the other hand, especially one with twin las and missiles are really nice ranged heavy anti-tank with S8-9. Park it somewhere and let it fire away, the two units cover different roles.

[Panzer]

While true, there are also a ton of weapons where it does make a difference. S5-7 is not very uncommon. Any Heavy Bolter/Onslought Gatling wounds Obliterators on a 4+ but Helbrutes only on a 5+. Assault cannons wound Obliterators on a 3+ but Helbrutes only on a 5+. Any kind of Autocannon (which there are many of) wound Obliterators on a 3+ but Helbrutes only on a 4+.

 

Another pro for Obliterators though is that you can deep strike them. They can be literally invincible turn 1-2/3 (depending on who goes first) and then drop where you need/want them. Including on top of ruins where Helbrutes aren't allowed to even enter except for the ground level.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

 

Guys I feel like a broken record but 115 is literally not overcosted compared to havocs, by the numbers. If they were cheaper, then they'd beat havocs on firepower AND durability, even before buffs and strats, which would make them totally broken. This unit literally cannot get any cheaper without breaking the internal balance, and could probably be more expensive and still be must take in competitive lists due to strats.

 

So this isn't a hard stand point for me. I'm not going to die on this particular mountain.... but let's just say you come to my side of the argument... and we split the difference. This would make each Oblit... 105 (nice round number). 

 

105 x 3 = 315. 

 

Who cares, right? What am I doing with that 30 points that's going to win me my next tournament? 

 

That's why I think at the end of the day these arguments are just silly. I remember when Custodes Termies came down in points and everyone was estatic until they realized they could only afford an extra Misericordia on a dude or two. lol

 

 

It matters because right now we have a situation where multiple units do something similar, but with slightly different pros/cons. If you then make one of those units a bit cheaper, then it steals the roles of the other units. There's no need to argue or split differences. The question "Are Oblits worth using" has a simple answer: yes.

 

Lots of people are coming in saying they are overpriced. I'm just pointing out that they are not in comparison to other comparable units. If the change in points is so insignificant, then why do it, when it risks costing Havocs their role and returning Chaos to the state of having mandatory Oblits like we have in previous editions? We're already at serious risk of Chaos meta consisting of just spamming oblits again, like it was in early 8th. It was boring, unfluffy, and silly. So since they are not actually overcosted for what they do, how about we leave them alone and give Havocs, helbrutes and terminators a chance to show up on the tabletop instead?

[Prot]

Well I see what you’re saying and I’ll admit I’ve played quite a few competitive games in the last month or so using Oblits in every list except 3.

 

What I personally have experienced is the same thing everyone has been saying since 8 th dropped; marine armour in general isn’t very good. So while I agree we are in danger of seeing Oblits on every list, I personally don’t think it’s because Oblits are priced efficiently. Instead I found that Havocs disappear like nobody’s business.

 

When you consider, as mentioned above, Oblits deep strike, are easily enhanced with support powers and auras, Havocs are not. When you add that now we are locked at 5 models, 4 of which are special weapons.... it really doesn’t help much to move and shoot, or be T5 since Oblits already do that on top of everything else!

 

I was in the camp that Havocs were going to be awesome, and I wasn’t sure about Oblits. A good 15 or so games later, I’m not sold. But the problem, ( this is just my experience) has absolutely zero to do with Oblits at 65 or 900 points each.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Well I see what you’re saying and I’ll admit I’ve played quite a few competitive games in the last month or so using Oblits in every list except 3.

 

What I personally have experienced is the same thing everyone has been saying since 8 th dropped; marine armour in general isn’t very good. So while I agree we are in danger of seeing Oblits on every list, I personally don’t think it’s because Oblits are priced efficiently. Instead I found that Havocs disappear like nobody’s business.

 

When you consider, as mentioned above, Oblits deep strike, are easily enhanced with support powers and auras, Havocs are not. When you add that now we are locked at 5 models, 4 of which are special weapons.... it really doesn’t help much to move and shoot, or be T5 since Oblits already do that on top of everything else!

 

I was in the camp that Havocs were going to be awesome, and I wasn’t sure about Oblits. A good 15 or so games later, I’m not sold. But the problem, ( this is just my experience) has absolutely zero to do with Oblits at 65 or 900 points each.

 

Yeah, its certainly true that marines are too squishy. Note that I've been saying Oblits are internally balanced vs havocs and terminators, but thats not the same thing as claiming that they are good overall. It's possible that all these units are too weak. Honestly I'd have preferred if Havocs had kept the ability to take ablative wounds rather than getting move and shoot. They've infringed on the Oblits territory with that.

 

If the marine statline gets some love, then Havocs and terminators will go up in durability. In that case, it would then be appropriate for Oblits to be changed a bit too so that they stay internally balanced. And that would most likely be a points drop.