Obliterators worth using?

[MegaVolt87]

Termi's, havocs, hellbrutes and hellforged dreads definately edge out oblits if they are going to be 115pts. At 115pts I don't want to roll so random for the output, would be better if they had a median fixed stat on the guns or an exceptional one with a further points increase so they can be real street sweepers at 24'. Having so many random rolls pointed assuming you roll max stats everytime is a rubbish way to do things IMO, a bad chaos trope that should be done away with for the faction as a whole. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Termi's, havocs, hellbrutes and hellforged dreads definately edge out oblits if they are going to be 115pts. At 115pts I don't want to roll so random for the output, would be better if they had a median fixed stat on the guns or an exceptional one with a further points increase so they can be real street sweepers at 24'. Having so many random rolls pointed assuming you roll max stats everytime is a rubbish way to do things IMO, a bad chaos trope that should be done away with for the faction as a whole. 

GW's whole "The Chaos Gods are fickle" thing is the wrong approach to that issue. To represent that better, Chaos units should have solid basic profiles, with the option to get some kind of big, fixed bonus, in exchange for rolling on a table to see if bad things happen AFTER the action in question is resolved. That way, you know what your units can do, but have a less clear idea of what it might cost you.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I agree that the random profiles are annoying. But still, on average, its internally balanced. Sometimes you'll get unlucky and it'll be worse, and sometimes you'll get lucky and it'll be better.

 

I'm not really a fan of randomness at all (dice rolls to hit and wound do enough of that). I prefer giving up stuff in one area for buffs in another, restrictions on powerful units, etc (like the 3.5 codex.)

[Dr_Ruminahui]

One change to the FAQ does improve obliterators and other units with randomized attack profiles  - you now roll for the random profiles when you select the unit to shoot and before you choose you target.

[MegaVolt87]

I agree that the random profiles are annoying. But still, on average, its internally balanced. Sometimes you'll get unlucky and it'll be worse, and sometimes you'll get lucky and it'll be better.

 

I'm not really a fan of randomness at all (dice rolls to hit and wound do enough of that). I prefer giving up stuff in one area for buffs in another, restrictions on powerful units, etc (like the 3.5 codex.)

 

Its really not balanced though, we are given a points tax under the assumption that we will roll the max OP statline for the selected unit every time. Let me put it this way, if I am playing opposing CSM's and I see two ore more oblits in the opponents force, I will be relieved because for those same points I could be seeing a sicarian, havocks more termi's, bezerkers etc. More reliable and just as effective units exist not only in the heavy slot but the faction as a whole to regulate oblits to the shelf for 8th ed. 

[Drudge Dreadnought]

 

I agree that the random profiles are annoying. But still, on average, its internally balanced. Sometimes you'll get unlucky and it'll be worse, and sometimes you'll get lucky and it'll be better.

 

I'm not really a fan of randomness at all (dice rolls to hit and wound do enough of that). I prefer giving up stuff in one area for buffs in another, restrictions on powerful units, etc (like the 3.5 codex.)

 

Its really not balanced though, we are given a points tax under the assumption that we will roll the max OP statline for the selected unit every time. Let me put it this way, if I am playing opposing CSM's and I see two ore more oblits in the opponents force, I will be relieved because for those same points I could be seeing a sicarian, havocks more termi's, bezerkers etc. More reliable and just as effective units exist not only in the heavy slot but the faction as a whole to regulate oblits to the shelf for 8th ed. 

 

 

No. See my linked post on previous page. I ran the numbers. They are internally balanced with Havocs and combi-plasma terminators at 115pts even before you account for strats and buffs. Which means they are just better. If they were being strat taxed, they'd be 130pts.

[Prot]

Well even though I think a better job on the Havocs would have made the decision a little easier I did find something on the FAQ that really is a negative. They state you reroll all results for Oblits each time you fire them....which includes Cacaphony.

 

Not the end of the world but a very substantial clarification.

[Syrakul]

One change to the FAQ does improve obliterators and other units with randomized attack profiles  - you now roll for the random profiles when you select the unit to shoot and before you choose you target.

It was always that way; the original wording said when they are "chosen to shoot" and then specified they have that profile for the duration of that shooting phase.

 

Now the faq has made them less reliable when using abilitie(s)? like cacaphony, where you will need to reroll each time they fire instead of for the phase. (so if you spent cp to reroll a damage dice or you had good rolls you can't keep them the next time they shoot)

[dice4thedicegod]

Rolling each time makes them more reliable, not less ( as more dice rolls = more chance to average out). Relying on a single set of rolls for the whole turn was far more variable... could be good or bad. Those folks complaining about randomness should welcome multiple rolls during a turn; more chance for averaging.

[ambit]

See my post on reddit yesterday re: maxing Obliterators and Possessed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/bjhi8v/black_legion_maxing_obliterators_possessed/

 

The Daemon keyword gives them so many more potential buffs, particularly if they are Black Legion and you use Chosen of the Pantheon.

 

Possessed can get a ridiculous number of buffs.

[Panzer]

Well even though I think a better job on the Havocs would have made the decision a little easier I did find something on the FAQ that really is a negative. They state you reroll all results for Oblits each time you fire them....which includes Cacaphony.

 

Not the end of the world but a very substantial clarification.

I agree and disagree.

Rolling both times makes it more likely to get the average result. However not knowing what the second round of shooting might bring makes the decision to use Cacophony more risky. Before when you rolled well you knew that the second time will be good too and if you rolled really low you just didn't bother with Cacophony unless you really needed the additional shots.

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

I agree that the random profiles are annoying. But still, on average, its internally balanced. Sometimes you'll get unlucky and it'll be worse, and sometimes you'll get lucky and it'll be better.

 

I'm not really a fan of randomness at all (dice rolls to hit and wound do enough of that). I prefer giving up stuff in one area for buffs in another, restrictions on powerful units, etc (like the 3.5 codex.)

 

Its really not balanced though, we are given a points tax under the assumption that we will roll the max OP statline for the selected unit every time. Let me put it this way, if I am playing opposing CSM's and I see two ore more oblits in the opponents force, I will be relieved because for those same points I could be seeing a sicarian, havocks more termi's, bezerkers etc. More reliable and just as effective units exist not only in the heavy slot but the faction as a whole to regulate oblits to the shelf for 8th ed. 

 

 

No. See my linked post on previous page. I ran the numbers. They are internally balanced with Havocs and combi-plasma terminators at 115pts even before you account for strats and buffs. Which means they are just better. If they were being strat taxed, they'd be 130pts.

 

 

Appreciate the work you did there, but its only a few units out of all the others you could take at the same points disregarding its force org slot. I am more worried about seeing the other units I mentioned in my quote than 2 or more oblits. The points tax penalty is only balanced based off the potential to roll max OP oblit stats not the average or below average rolls you make majority of the time. They are over pointed period for what they do compared to many units at a similar price point. Outside of a dedicated daemonkin detachment which will build around such a units keywords, its not worth it. 

[Filkarion]

I will try 2 squads of 1, probably in deepstrike as good old distraction carifexes (points are also similar)

I use cacophony on Havocs or 10 man or more Noise marines anyway, so not a lot of concerns from that point

 

any experience/suggesrions/better options?

[Sception]

Rolling each time makes them more reliable, not less ( as more dice rolls = more chance to average out). Relying on a single set of rolls for the whole turn was far more variable... could be good or bad. Those folks complaining about randomness should welcome multiple rolls during a turn; more chance for averaging.

More rolls is only more reliable until you take multiple units or factor cp rerolls into account. With multiple units you could cacophony with whichever had rolled better, and with cp rerolls you could get a better initial roll. In both cases the second round cacophony was generally working from a profile already above average die results.

 

So in practice rolling every time is both weaker and less reliable, but it's not a huge change.

[Prot]

Rolling each time makes them more reliable, not less ( as more dice rolls = more chance to average out). Relying on a single set of rolls for the whole turn was far more variable... could be good or bad. Those folks complaining about randomness should welcome multiple rolls during a turn; more chance for averaging.

 

Averaging results have no bearing on whether I use them or not.

 

Pre-determing those results had a much larger impact than averaging them out.

 

 

Well even though I think a better job on the Havocs would have made the decision a little easier I did find something on the FAQ that really is a negative. They state you reroll all results for Oblits each time you fire them....which includes Cacaphony.

 

Not the end of the world but a very substantial clarification.

I agree and disagree.

Rolling both times makes it more likely to get the average result. However not knowing what the second round of shooting might bring makes the decision to use Cacophony more risky. Before when you rolled well you knew that the second time will be good too and if you rolled really low you just didn't bother with Cacophony unless you really needed the additional shots.

 

 

Again, I don't want, nor care about averages. I want to know before I look at the end of the shooting phase what the Oblits will be best at. Getting an average really gives me zero.. as in nothing positive. 

 

Example: My priority is a tank. I don't want averages, I want high Damage.

Example: My priority is elite infantry: I don't want averages I want high AP.

 

Predetermining those results trumps any aspect of having a goal of averages. Not knowing those results (regardless of averages) will be a serious detriment in my use of Cacaphony on them. Long story short; this clarification on Oblit use is a negative for me.

[Kaldoth]

 

Again, I don't want, nor care about averages. I want to know before I look at the end of the shooting phase what the Oblits will be best at. Getting an average really gives me zero.. as in nothing positive. 

 

Example: My priority is a tank. I don't want averages, I want high Damage.

Example: My priority is elite infantry: I don't want averages I want high AP.

 

Predetermining those results trumps any aspect of having a goal of averages. Not knowing those results (regardless of averages) will be a serious detriment in my use of Cacaphony on them. Long story short; this clarification on Oblit use is a negative for me.

I mean, the numbers are predetermined. You roll the stats for the obliterator weapons before you choose a target, so you'll know what the strength and AP are before you actually get to rolling. Also, endless cacophony allows you to restart the shooting process and doesn't force you to choose the same target. It just says the unit "can shoot again." So, if you don't get the rolls you want, soften something else up.

[Tordeck]

 

 

Rolling both times

This is how it was always played in my meta, so while the clarificiation is cool, it hasn't actually changed anything about them. Now the price increase, that sucks.

[Marshlands]

See my post on reddit yesterday re: maxing Obliterators and Possessed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/bjhi8v/black_legion_maxing_obliterators_possessed/

 

The Daemon keyword gives them so many more potential buffs, particularly if they are Black Legion and you use Chosen of the Pantheon.

 

Possessed can get a ridiculous number of buffs.

You missed the tree! Gives Oblits a 0+ and possessed a 1+. Also to a lesser extent epidimius can buff them

 

Also importantly they can be quite speedy with M7, warptime, run and charge and rerollable charges. Avg. 21" move followed by a rerollable charge

[Balthamal]

I think 95 ppm is the sweet spot for them - having them go up in cost by 85% for 2 shots 1 T and an extra wound isn't worth it imo. The problem with the buff argument is the inconsistency with so many of them. Cacophony isn't quite as great as it was with the re-roll and the powers that really take them to the top level aren't an easy cast imo

[BolterZorro]

 

See my post on reddit yesterday re: maxing Obliterators and Possessed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/bjhi8v/black_legion_maxing_obliterators_possessed/

 

The Daemon keyword gives them so many more potential buffs, particularly if they are Black Legion and you use Chosen of the Pantheon.

 

Possessed can get a ridiculous number of buffs.

You missed the tree! Gives Oblits a 0+ and possessed a 1+. Also to a lesser extent epidimius can buff them

 

Also importantly they can be quite speedy with M7, warptime, run and charge and rerollable charges. Avg. 21" move followed by a rerollable charge

 

Speedy? I only see they start with M4... 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Possessed are M7. He was talking about two different units.

[Marshlands]

 

 

 

See my post on reddit yesterday re: maxing Obliterators and Possessed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/bjhi8v/black_legion_maxing_obliterators_possessed/

 

The Daemon keyword gives them so many more potential buffs, particularly if they are Black Legion and you use Chosen of the Pantheon.

 

Possessed can get a ridiculous number of buffs.

You missed the tree! Gives Oblits a 0+ and possessed a 1+. Also to a lesser extent epidimius can buff them

 

Also importantly they can be quite speedy with M7, warptime, run and charge and rerollable charges. Avg. 21" move followed by a rerollable charge

Speedy? I only see they start with M4...

8 + 2D6" isn't a terrible move distance for Oblits to get in range when you have 2 ways to get +1 to hit as well

[mel_danes]

Dropped 1 Obliterator into my own deployment zone, Battle Round 2, Turn 2.

My front lines had been ripped into by a large round of Loota fire, and I was slammed but 2 mobs of Nobs.

The squad the Nobs had murdered died to a man, leaving that Nob mob open for retaliation.

 

Opened up on them with them single Oblit.

6 hits, Str8, AP-3, D2. Killed 6 of them.

 

I find the Deepstrike nature of the Obliterator lets me put pressure where I need it, and deepstrike keeps it safely off board to not get shot off turn 1.

[techsoldaten]

I'm sure we could all come up with examples of how useful the new Obliterators are.

 

The best story I have so far was fighting Tyranids. On turn 2, the Oblits dropped in and wiped out a unit of Warriors. Afterwards, they were charged by a unit of Genestealers. The Oblits killed 3 of them in Overwatch, used the Stratagem to fight first, and killed 5 more. The remaining 2 died to morale, leaving the Obliterators free to shoot next turn.

 

With the previous data sheet, the Oblits would have died in cc. A unit that can clear a flank with guns then stand up to a charge is actually pretty rare in 8th edition.

[Excessus]

I would love to DS them to protect them, though something else will be shot at instead that might be squishier...