Need some advice for starting CSM

[TastyBagel]

Greetings! Lurker/noob here. My gf's little brother is really getting into 40k. He loves the fluff and is looking to get more games in, and I figured I'd join him. I played a bunch of WHFB back in the day, but am new to the intricacies 40k, especially given the revised CSM book and the new FAQ in play. I could use some advice!

 

Our games will likely be on the small side for now, and may even resort to Power Levels of casual play, so full optimization or really competitive lists aren't a priority, though I also don't want to hobby up completely useless units should he get serious! I've got some basic stuff already: Sorcerer, Termie Lord and Prince for HQ options right now, then a few tactical squads and a small but growing blob of Cultists for the basic Troops... essentially enough for a battalion right now. I'd like some guidance as I pick the more interesting units!

• If we play with Power Levels, gear becomes pretty flexible! Any Good options for the Tac Squads if cost isn't an issue?
• When last I checked, we could field a Chaos Lord with two plasma pistols. This seemed like a fun conversion opportunity. Is this loadout likely to survive edition to edition, or is it an oddity in the current edition?
• I was considering a group of Chosen with either Plasma or Flamers. Any preference? If the pistol lord is an option... I think I'd go Plasma Chosen barring any strenuous objections.
• I love the look of Terminators and their mighty tusks, but I have not heard good things. "They are over-costed; they don't perform well; they don't survive anything; the box is bad and you'll struggle to get the bits you need to kit them out in any sensible way..." While I'd like a Termie unit to go with my Termie Lord, this unit seems like a lackluster choice. Are these worth picking up for casual games, or are they too much of a bother even then?
• Havocs seem interesting, but I don't think I'm dedicated enough to hobby up scratch-built cannons or buy box after box. Are they worth taking for just basic Missiles/Heavy Bolter/etc?

 

For now, I'm shying away from monsters like the Hellbrute, or Obliterators and such. Leaning towards Tzeentch and/or Alpha Legion currently.. not up on the fluff entirely yet. I'd appreciate any advice for a newcomer. Thanks!

[Vykes]

Heyas dude, first of all, welcome aboard.  

 

Man, I know my advice is gonna be a bit wonky because my 40K Chaos all comes in the form of 30K Horus-backed freedom fighters rebel  scum, but there's usually gonna be a bit of a disconnect between some of the way that CSM are presented and the way that 'super cereal' players actually construct stuff.  Mostly that means 'less is more' for power armour, at least.  That said, I like it as it's my bread and butter.  

 

You've got the sorcerer, you've got a termie lord (I've been having fun with my Black Legion Termie lord), power armour is a little meh mechanically but still fun to put on the table.  Alpha legion isn't really a set in stone army, you can do a lot with them so you can build 'em how you like from what I've seen.  More characters is always fun and frustratingly fluffy for them, and frankly keeping at range or trying to work in a quick counter attack can behoove you a little given their little legion trait.     

 

As for the power level, it's fine (Open to abuse of course, but people looking for a fight can't be expected to be surprised when they find one).  Honestly, I like 10-20 strong units with 2 special weapons tucked nicely in a legion squad.  It's one of those things that gets people looking at least.  It's rare and boggling enough.  A decent weapon on your aspiring champion is alwaysgood (even if just a combi-bolter or power-somethin'). 

 

As for the Chaos lord with twin plasma pistols (and jump pack, mind you!) it's a moritat, and I don't recall it being a thing before but it's a pretty fun little unit in its own right that could keep its status if only for the Cypher model proxy possibility.  Flitting around disengaging from combat as a gunslinger is remarkably fun.

 

Chosen with plasma guns is now my go-to now that havoc plasma guns got nuked.  Frankly I fight a staggering number of primaris and the 2 damage overcharge is worth its weight in gold.  I have flamers too (I have 15K points of angry proto-green dudes, I get to try out a lot of junk) and they are useful situationally.  Depends on your target of course, but I'd basically always give plasma guns the edge (less I'm stuck fighting nids... quick little curs).  

 

A week or so back I ran 30 terminators... it didn't go well but half of that is I racked up 45% 1's (not an exaggeration, we kept track) but the little price dip made them at least attractive along with the bolter discipline bonus.  They aren't great, but against Imperial armies I've been having fun with power sword and combi-bolter light terminators who tend to do at least half decent.  They're fun and look distinct.  Not really huge tournament tier stuff by any means, but I know the combi-melta Slaneesh marked terminators are at least something of a thing. To be perfectly honest, I'd take my bikes over terminators even if I like my heavy armoured beetle boys. 

 

Havocs are... not quite what I'm happy with at the moment but they can have their uses.  Cacophony with heavy weapons of any sort can be a threat with the right positioning, and most of their weapons can work depending on opponents.  Personally, heavy bolters are alright but it's just they're so thoroughly outshined by the new rotor cannons they don't seem to get a lot of screen time as it were on the anti-infantry front.   

 

When it comes down to it, in a true casual game there's only a few truly dumpster-tier units that probably should be avoided in any list.  Take what looks cool and is thematic and get familiar with it.  After all, it might lead you to realize you like a different play style that could turn into a different faction, or just to double down on certain aspects of an army that others might consider sub-par yet you find enjoyable. 

[Syrakul]

As a person who likes to chop up and mix parts from lots of old bitz boxes worth of options, the new chaos range wouldnt be a problem.

 

For new players like yourself its disappointing that the new kits are missing bitz you need to run optimal loadouts. If you wanted a quick and functional 2 squads of 5 CSM with bolters you have enough bolters (4 and a plasma, then 4 and a say a missile launcher) and no option in the box for combi-weapons on sarge. Have to get creative with plasma pistol conversions strapped to bolters.

 

Terminator kit feels slightly better than old kit with the compartmental combi-weapons (but one C-plas option feels like an insult), and everyone wants cheap CC to keep their cost down which means finding much-sought after chainaxes. Kit has one, then its forgeworld or third party to fill the rest out. Or you could have a confusing mix of various power weapons that make any cc they get into take extra long.

If you can salvage one more chainaxe (maybe stick a chainsword to a cutdown powermaul or something) and poweraxe from CSM box you could make 4 cbolters, 1 cmelta, 2 chainaxe, 2 poweraxe, 1 chainfist (sarge is cfist/melta)

Could also scavenge more plasma pistols from SM players and attach the ends to chopped-down combi-flamer and melta sides, to make 5 combi-plasmas.

 

Havocs and their type of heavy squad usually never have enough for each member to be the same. Fair enough it has lots of parts already (but webside doesn't show the third sprue for some reason) One squad I’d do from one box is bolter sarge, 2 autocannons and 2 lascannons (gotta dig up a bolter from SM player, or just make him boltpistol/CC.

[TastyBagel]

Thanks Vykes. THIRTY Terminators?!? That is impressive stuff. Shame about the 1's! I appreciate all the insight. I think I'll hobby up some Plasma Chosen first, and then see what tickles my fancy. I actually have a trio of Chaos Bikers already.. My plan for them was to take chainswords (just in case) and otherwise just harass and chaff it up with them. Do you have any insight on other loadouts or uses for bikes?

 

And thanks for the feedback on the box contents Syrakul. I'm no stranger to conversions, but sounds like I'd really have my work cut out for me with the Terminators. Something to keep in mind. Thanks so much!

[Syrakul]

Chaos bikes are in a good place with m14” w2 t5

And the new concept of smashlord (lord with hammer) works well on a bike as the improved toughness and bonus wound goes onto him as well. if you get 3 more bikes you can do

Bike lord w/combi-melta, thunderhammer,combi-bolter (bike)

5 bikers:

champ: combi-melta, combi-bolter (bike)

2x meltagun,chainsword, combi-bolter (bike)

2x chainsword, combi-bolter(bike)

 

All toogether if you are out of 12” you can shoot 14 bolt shots, or in 12” without doubling your combi-meltas can do 4 meltaguns, 24 bolter shots, and can of course split those shots on a vehicle, and a troop unit , all rerolling 1’s to hit. Good candidate unit for veterans of the long war.

 

Its 296 pts for 16 t5 wounds, 16 basic csm is already 220pts

[ChazSexington]

Greetings! Lurker/noob here. My gf's little brother is really getting into 40k. He loves the fluff and is looking to get more games in, and I figured I'd join him. I played a bunch of WHFB back in the day, but am new to the intricacies 40k, especially given the revised CSM book and the new FAQ in play. I could use some advice!

 

Our games will likely be on the small side for now, and may even resort to Power Levels of casual play, so full optimization or really competitive lists aren't a priority, though I also don't want to hobby up completely useless units should he get serious! I've got some basic stuff already: Sorcerer, Termie Lord and Prince for HQ options right now, then a few tactical squads and a small but growing blob of Cultists for the basic Troops... essentially enough for a battalion right now. I'd like some guidance as I pick the more interesting units!

• If we play with Power Levels, gear becomes pretty flexible! Any Good options for the Tac Squads if cost isn't an issue?
• When last I checked, we could field a Chaos Lord with two plasma pistols. This seemed like a fun conversion opportunity. Is this loadout likely to survive edition to edition, or is it an oddity in the current edition?
• I was considering a group of Chosen with either Plasma or Flamers. Any preference? If the pistol lord is an option... I think I'd go Plasma Chosen barring any strenuous objections.
• I love the look of Terminators and their mighty tusks, but I have not heard good things. "They are over-costed; they don't perform well; they don't survive anything; the box is bad and you'll struggle to get the bits you need to kit them out in any sensible way..." While I'd like a Termie unit to go with my Termie Lord, this unit seems like a lackluster choice. Are these worth picking up for casual games, or are they too much of a bother even then?
• Havocs seem interesting, but I don't think I'm dedicated enough to hobby up scratch-built cannons or buy box after box. Are they worth taking for just basic Missiles/Heavy Bolter/etc?

 

For now, I'm shying away from monsters like the Hellbrute, or Obliterators and such. Leaning towards Tzeentch and/or Alpha Legion currently.. not up on the fluff entirely yet. I'd appreciate any advice for a newcomer. Thanks!

 

I highlighted in bold something I think you should stay away from, because that's partially why PL has such wild and swingy balance issues. The Chapter Approved books update point costs, but not power levels, meaning some units are wildly overcosted whereas others are extremely undercosted. If you go at it with the mentality that you want to have as much kit as possible because it costs the same anyway, I wouldn't suggest PL. At 200 PL, a mate of mine made a ~1200pt AdMech list and a 3000pt list of Chaos, IIRC. 

 

PLs are literally just the points of an average unit divided by 20 to patch up the horrid layout of the codices and the difficulties in calculating the point cost due to that. I would suggest downloading Battlescribe and using points, honestly. 

 

Now, for the rest!

 

Go with plasma Chosen - I really like mine! Mine have power swords too!

 

Havocs are good, but as you mention, GW are insistent on making things 'ard for the spikey boyz. This is exactly what I feared when they launched the kit - that it would make gaming less accessible to new players without extensive conversion experience. I honestly don't have a good solution.

[Lhorke The First]

Welcome to the Long War!

 

I have to agree that plasma chosen are a great option. I run a squad of World Eaters chosen armed with plasma guns and chainaxes, and they are a lot of fun. 

 

Havocs are a solid option as well. I don't have any of the new ones though. All of mine were kitbashed from Mk III and IV armor and World Eaters upgrade kits and given heavy bolters. I have always favored heavy bolters for anti-infantry, but it seems that the new rotor-cannons dominate that role now.

[TastyBagel]

Thanks all! You have all sold me on some Plasma Chosen! Just started assembling a squad this evening. So far so good!

 

I'd like to get one other "flashy" unit on my hobby table. If I wanted to get a "flames of Tzeentch" thing going... what CSM units like flamers?

 

That's a very fair point to emphasize Chaz. I figured PL would let us get a few small games in and let me acclimate to the rules without too much effort devoted to list building on my part.  And figured I could test out some favorite gear of the forum while I was at it, like if you all were really into champs with Powerfists or something. Very valid point though. I anticipate that we'll be switching to using Points costs after a few small intro games. 

 

Thanks for the loadout Syrakul. I do like the look of bikes, so I'd definitely be open to adding more biker models down the road. Regarding the loadout though, my noobish impression was that Meltas were more a very specialized anti-armor choice? Is the idea of this loadout "just in case?" Enough models and combi-bolters to threaten and harass things things and a few cheapish Meltas around just in case a juicy armored target presents itself?

[Syrakul]

I might have missed the points on one melta there, actually

I think meltas aren't used on most units because they lack the delivery mechanism to utilize at max effect. CSM/chosen are too slow to get in range, terminators cannot ds into the melta half-range for full goodness, and raptors are rather squishy and harder to justify the cost to upgrade them (and a good target for enemy flakk missiles)

 

Bikes have great movement, guaranteed advance range, still able to hide in the right circumstances and tougher with 2 wounds so they are more likely to get use out of melta, and more survivable to keep them.

[TastyBagel]

Very interesting. I will need to read up. Thank you very much for explaining!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Chosen and Raptors do flamers well. Chosen because they can take so many, Raptors because 3 in a 5 man squad that can rapidly get into range are pretty good.

[Scourged]

A couple times in the past I've had fun with Chosen rocking combi flamers and power axes. The amount of carnage they can rock once they get close is very delightful. Though I haven't run them since the latest point drops. Man that was a fun unit with the old Forward Operatives rule...

 

Chosen are great. You'll have fun with them, no matter how you run them. But they die fast. They won't be a workhorse for your army, but when you've got that one unit that needs to die... Chosen.

[TastyBagel]

Thank you all so very much for the advice! I had a family emergency this week, so I didn't get much hobbying in, but I did manage to get the inaugural game of 40k in this weekend: Troop heavy Alpha Legion CSM (me) vs Slaanesh & Nurgle Daemons.

 

We definitely did not run ideal lists, but we did had some fun!

 

The game was way faster-paced than I was expecting. Slaaneshi Seekers were in my lines Turn 1, and were quickly reinforced. The game was largely a grindfest. My Marines couldn't hit anything all game, but did decently in melee, and I was gaining the upper hand when we decided to call the game. A good time was had, and a lot was learned. Thanks again for all your advice!