Overwatch as Shooting Phase

[The Titanz0r]

With the new FAQ, they declare that "all rules that would apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking place as if it were that phase" and "Overwatch attacks are also considered to be attacks made as if it were your Shooting phase." What does this mean for rules and abilities that apply during the Shooting phase? Do abilities that last 'until the end of the shooting phase' still work? It seems that either it's an extension of the Shooting Phase that happens out of sequence, or each Overwatch action is like it's own mini Shooting Phase.

[Toomanyprojects]

All ranges, abilities, unit buffs (eg reroll 1s or misses) etc apply. Rules which apply only in the shooting phase do not, as the shooting phase has already ended, so anything which applies ‘until the end of the phase’ has reached its expiry.

 

I think it’s perhaps a case of somewhat clumsy wording on the part of GW, but shooting phase only stuff can only happen in the shooting phase. Maybe if you activated a shooting phase stratagem (like the chaos marine Slaanesh units shoot twice) in overwatch you could argue it, but my personal feeling is that the odds would be against you on that one :)

[Panzer]

It means that every rule that applies to the shooting phase also applies to Overwatch (note: except for to-hit modifier as in Overwatch you always hit on 6s unless a special rule excplicitly says otherwise).

However for your example when a rule says "until the end of the shooting phase" it won't have any effect on Overwatch until you activated this effect after the last shooting phase. If such a rule was in effect before or during the last shooting phase it ends with the end of said shooting phase and won't be active during the charge phase in which Overwatch happens anymore.

[The Titanz0r]

So what does "Overwatch is your Shooting Phase" mean, then? Can a Guard Officer use Voice of Command if he gets charged, since it's the start of his Shooting Phase when he enacts Overwatch?

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Except it doesn't make it his shooting phase - it just uses the same rules as the shooting phase.

 

Basically, it does away with shenanigans like people arguing that their shooting in the psychic phase or the fight phase could shoot characters, as the character targetting rules only apply during the shooting phase.

[H311fi5h]

It does say "as if it were your Shooting phase" though. Not a shooting phase, your shooting phase. So basically it is the shooting phase for that moment (for the purpose of all rules except the specific overwatch rules there is no difference).

The point of debate has to be whether that means it's an additional mini-shooting phase within the envelope of the charge phase, or a sort of time-travel thing back to the player's shooting phase.

[Panzer]

Well the shooting phase in turn 5 is also your shooting phase but would you really argue that an effect you triggered in your turn 1 shooting phase is still active there? No you wouldn't. The effect ended with the end of your shooting phase and would need to be re-activated again if you want to use it again. The same goes for Overwatch. Your shooting phase is over. You want to use the effect again you have to activate it again.

[The Titanz0r]

Obviously, the phases are different between turns. Otherwise, abilities that operate "as though it were X phase" would be able to be chosen from various turns. My Infantry moved 12" in Turn 2, and at Turn 5 they are moving 'as though it were the movement phase' so I'm going to pick my Turn 2 Movement phase.That's just asinine. Further, if X phase were over period, then any abilities that would be active during X phase would not be active. There are rules that state otherwise, which is why we have "as though it were X phase." The FAQ now states that Overwatch attacks are "as though it were your shooting phase." The question remains as to whether that means the Overwatch attacks are an extension of the previous Shooting Phase operating out of sequence, or a new mini-Shooting Phase.

[Panzer]

It doesn't say previous shooting phase though. Just shooting phase. Nothing except for wishlisting indicates that "until the end of the phase" effects from your shooting phase re-activate during Overwatch.

[The Titanz0r]

It says "your shooting phase" not just "shooting phase." But other rules say the same thing. "As if it were X phase" without clarifying which X phase. Tallarn's Get Around Behind Them! allows you to move up to 6" during the Shooting Phase as if it were the Movement Phase. What you're saying is that I'd be able to choose which Movement Phase, since it doesn't specify which turn's Movement Phase?

[Panzer]

What I'm saying is that you are interpreting things into the wording that simply isn't there. Some may also call it wishlisting.

[BluejayJunior]

Overwatch is treated "as though it's the shooting phase", but nothing says that you go back in time to when it was your shooting phase. If something lasts until the end of the shooting phase, it wears off as soon you move into the charge phase.

Overwatch isn't an extension of your shooting phase or a mini shooting phase. It is shooting that happens in the charge phase, that is resolved in the same manner as when it was the shooting phase (with the exception of only hitting on 6s). You can also use stratagems or other abilities that can occur in the shooting phase to affect Overwatch, but previously activated abilities that last until the end of the shooting phase have already worn off. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I can see some IG players wanting to issue orders now .

[shanewatts]

The discussions I have seen about this other places are borderline ridiculous in my opinion. I am certain there was not intended to be a change in the way overwatch is currently played, I believe they included this as an attempt to clarify it (only to make it worse.)

 

To me it just seems like people trying to game the system.

[Lysere]

The big issue is people reading too much into the wrong parts.

 

Overwatch uses the rules of the shooting phase despite not being the shooting phase. Anything that is normally active during a 'shooting phase' will be active during overwatch, except where noted. This does not mean that is actually the shooting phase as laid out in the turn order. Anything that must be activated during your shooting phase do not get to activate. Things would trigger a bonus during your shooting phase do not go off either.

 

If the rule is always in effect and doesn't clash with the overwatch rules themselves it works, otherwise it can't be activated. As an example the Tech Priest Dominus allows you to re-roll ones to hit in the shooting phase. This is a fixed ability that will now work in overwatch because you are treating the shots as if it was the shooting phase. This is also the case with the Cadian bonus.

 

Grinding advance however would not work as its a bonus granted by not moving too far in your movement phase, and triggers in the following shooting phase. By the time you get to overwatch it is now the opponents charge phase.

 

TLDR: AS IF is not the same as IS. You have one Actual shooting phase per turn and several instances to use some of those rules outside of the proper phase. If the ability requires triggering or activating in YOUR Shooting phase then it can't be activated as part of overwatch unless it has clear exceptions. Just like not being able to change the only hit on 6 rule in overwatch without clear exceptions.

 

My thoughts at least

[Kallas]

TLDR: AS IF is not the same as IS. You have one Actual shooting phase per turn and several instances to use some of those rules outside of the proper phase. If the ability requires triggering or activating in YOUR Shooting phase then it can't be activated as part of overwatch unless it has clear exceptions. Just like not being able to change the only hit on 6 rule in overwatch without clear exceptions.

 

I would disagree with this, with the prime example of Opportunistic Advance.

 

Basically, any time a Tyranid Kraken unit gets to make a move (eg, Swarmlord's Hive Commander, Overrun) the verbage is 'as if it were the Movement Phase'; and the FAQ clarifies that, yes, the player can use Opportunistic Advance despite its wording saying to use it in the Movement Phase.

 

Now, you could say that this is a "clear exception" - but I think that is a pretty narrow view of things. Simply, 'as if it were [x] phase' gives the same triggers as actually being in that phase. I agree that some things don't function (eg, Grinding Advance, which has a different restriction given the "following Shooting phase" wording) but a lot of benefits would/could interact.

 

Edit: I retract that statement after having had another look at the wording of the Q&A in the Rulebook FAQ. The Rulebook FAQ says 'no you can't use a [specified] phase Stratagem in [not the specified] phase'; the Tyranid FAQ still has the same Q&A about Opportunistic Advance (which is the exact opposite of that Rulebook FAQ!)

 

Needs additional clarification, but I would assume that since the Rulebook FAQ is more recent, the Tyranid FAQ was, probably, simply overlooked.

 

The wording of the FAQ is, specifically:

"A: With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g. abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’). For the purposes of this FAQ, Overwatch attacks are also considered to be attacks made as if it were your Shooting phase."

 

So abilities, Warlord Traits, etc would apply, but a Stratagem that is used in the Shooting Phase wouldn't apply/be eligible to be used (eg, the Codex: Space Marines 'Tremor Shells' Stratagem, which says, "Use this Stratagem when a Thunderfire Cannon is selected to attack in the Shooting phase"). A Warlord Trait (eg, the Codex: Space Marines 'Storm of Fire' Trait which says, "Each time you roll a wound roll of 6 or more for a friendly <CHAPTER> unit within 6" of the Warlord in the Shooting phase") would apply.

 

I think in the case of an activated ability (eg, the Codex: T'au Warlord Trait 'Through Unity, Devastation' which says, "In each of your Shooting phases, you can pick an enemy unit that is visible to your Warlord") would   not   be applicable unless the Warlord was the target of the charge or was within 6" or a unit that was and used their 'For The Greater Good' ability to also overwatch - my reasoning being that if they weren't performing Overwatch, then they wouldn't be firing. That's also an extremely grey area, as once they've fired that model isn't in their 'mini' Shooting Phase any longer, so it might be possible to activate for them but might not apply to anyone else anyway. 

 

As ever, it's as clear as mud! 

[The Titanz0r]

As I've said before, whenever GeeDubs updates or releases an FAQ, they create a load of questions by answering other questions. I mean, clearly the 'overwatch attacks as if it were shooting phase' is meant to be for abilities that are active 'only during the shooting phase.' However, the wording creates the confusion. Further, in the same update, they say Dark Reapers' Overwatch is not the shooting phase. So, in the same FAQ they say Overwatch attacks are and are not the shooting phase.

 

More personally, it seems like Overwatch not counting toward Guard shooting is notionally questionable. If an infantry squad is issued the order to rank fire, they're laying down disciplined fire against the enemy. Why would they stop the fusillade during overwatch, when the volume of fire is most necessary?

[Morticon]

There's another necessary consideration/clarification and that is some rules specify which shooting phase - for example - they will use verbiage such as "your(/the?) next shooting phase" - I believe this is the case for the Russes main gun double-firing.  In this case you'd not be able to use it, as the phase it was being used in was specified. 

 

That may crop up with other rules too. 

So, Cadian got a buff with rerolling 1s in OW now, but look to other shenanigans of confusion.