Psy-Bolt and Bolter Dicipline

[Waking Dreamer]

Yeah, if it's an upgrade, but requires extra cost compared to now...would it be worth it? You're essentially losing boys for better toys, can an already elite GK army afford that?

 

Sure TS PA already cost more than us, but part of that cost makes them a bit more survivable (5++, possible AP-1 negation). Yet they are still considered overcosted. Increasing our points cost doesn't make our units tougher to clear, but reduces how much models we can field. A free upgrade would be nice in a perfect world...But is an increase in cost worth it?

[Panzer]

Generally, no GK can't really afford that. However it's also true that GK are lacking ranged punch. They can deal reasonably well with hordes thanks to Stormbolter on everything but against armour and multi-wound models they kinda have to get into melee. Having one or two dedicated units with Psybolt ammo you paid extra for to deal with such targets might be helpful.

TS have the advantage that they are really really durable compared to regular Marines which also means that they can use their Bolter for more rounds despite having only half as many shots ... and that they don't pay points for force weapons on every single model (a regular power sword is 4p, I don't want to imagine how much tax GK pay for a force sword on each model in a unit they actually just want to shoot with because A1 is kinda crap for a melee unit).

[TheMostGood]

Here's the problem with paid for upgrades. 

GK already have a point cost issue to begin with. An elite army that doesn't really have points to spare generally. 

 

The other problem is that even if you only buy psybolt ammo on some units, you end up making that unit a target priority threat for your opponent. 

 

"Oh, that's the unit that has all the shooty buffs? OK, I'm gonna fire into that squad and delete that right quick. I can screen your melee boys / wait until they become a problem turn 2."

 

Making is a psychic power could potentially remove that situation, while also keeping it fluffy and psychic based. 

Honestly, a lot of issue with GK could be mended if we just had more psychic abilities (like how Eldar have two choices for most psychic abilities IIRC) to chose from and more defensive perks in general. 

[Panzer]

 

The other problem is that even if you only buy psybolt ammo on some units, you end up making that unit a target priority threat for your opponent. 

 

"Oh, that's the unit that has all the shooty buffs? OK, I'm gonna fire into that squad and delete that right quick. I can screen your melee boys / wait until they become a problem turn 2."

 

That's no different to what every other army has to deal with. Devastators, Veteran units and such are just as much a target priority because of better weapons.

[Closet Skeleton]

It should be a stratagem. Its not like there aren't other stratagems that are really good that work the same way (veterans of the long war for example) or operate under the same theme (hellfire shells). Its just the 2cp that is way too high when that's what other armies can fire twice for.

 

Or keep it at 2cp and change it to making your shots ignore invulnerable saves, that would be fluffier. Grey Knight weapons just having the same kind of rules as mundane guns is really lame.

[Panzer]

It should be a stratagem. Its not like there aren't other stratagems that are really good that work the same way (veterans of the long war for example) or operate under the same theme (hellfire shells). Its just the 2cp that is way too high when that's what other armies can fire twice for.

 

 

None of those are profile upgrades though.

[Waking Dreamer]

It should be a stratagem. Its not like there aren't other stratagems that are really good that work the same way (veterans of the long war for example) or operate under the same theme (hellfire shells). Its just the 2cp that is way too high when that's what other armies can fire twice for.

 

Or keep it at 2cp and change it to making your shots ignore invulnerable saves, that would be fluffier. Grey Knight weapons just having the same kind of rules as mundane guns is really lame.

 

Going full circle back to the stratagem option, this would prevent the issue of reducing GK model count to have paid upgrades, or being highly vulnerable to priority targeting with only the standard T4, Sv3+ to protect our PAGK. 

 

Are you saying for 2CP, that psybolt ammo should ALSO ignore invulnerable saves (combined with the current S5 AP-1 buff)? That would be brutal for a Daemon-heavy army...which yeah, fluffy...

 

The psychic option is an interesting route though unlike stratagems, they can fail or be denied. Considering stormbolter's common shooting ranges of 9"-24", an army with moderate amount of psykers will most likely have the opportunity to DTW whenever we attempt that. We may end up spending a re-roll just to cast it or ensure it's a little more harder for the opponent to DTW.  Maybe a 1CP stratagem to make sure it happens is more appealing in the end, and it's harder for an army to target priority a unit for the psybolt buff, when basically all our infantry units have stormbolters, and therefore are all potentially applicable for the buff.

 

I'd take the revised stratagem idea a step further (instead of just being cheaper), and include the possibility of having 2 GK units getting the psybolt buff at the SAME time. It synergies with the characteristic alpha / beta strike of GK armies where you hit hard and fast...or you'll probably die soon after. Our key is to cripple the opposing army first, since we most likely cannot survive a strong retaliation in their subsequent turn. It still takes planning and investment to get our limited GK units/models where they really need to be - but how does 80, S5 AP-1 psybolt shots sound? For 3CP and the cost of 2x 10-man PAGK (if they survive that long) getting within rapid-fire range. How's that for some unique GK ranged punch?

[Matt_149]

Not sure if this has been suggested yet but How about an upgrade that costs cp like the knight heavy stubbers or the veteran intercessors. 1 cp per unit to get the better ammo?

[Waking Dreamer]

Not sure if this has been suggested yet but How about an upgrade that costs cp like the knight heavy stubbers or the veteran intercessors. 1 cp per unit to get the better ammo?

 

Do you pay the CP at the start of the game, and does the ammo upgrade remain throughout the game? 

[Captain Coolpants]

Eh I dunno. We have literally already had psybolts. We paid points for them. And we always tried including them in our armies. And it worked fine. So if its not broken why fix it?

 

And force used to be a psychic test with endless casts that literally insta gibbed stuff. And again, wasn't even broken. (was damn good though!)

 

So really I truly believe, combining the ideas to casting psybolts as a power, feels comfortable (because its what we're used too), gives us some flexibility (by not always using smites), and negates the issue of it costing us CP's (which are hard to come by).

 

We already know it'll work. And it's a super easy fix. So why not?

[Waking Dreamer]

If 1k sons can get Inferno Bolts why can’t we get PsyBolts standard?

Has anyone mathhammered the difference between the two? I have been thinking again about how effective our psybolt ammo is compared to the other armies special snowflake rounds (e.g. Inferno/blessed bolts), and if it is actually that much better or maybe even worse...?

[momerathe]

vs. MEQ (wound * fail save):

S5 AP-1 = 2/3 * 1/2 = 1/3

S4 AP-2 = 1/2 * 2/3 = 1/3

 

Inferno rounds will trend to be better against T3 or 2+ saves, psybolt is better against T5 or 4++ or better