vs. Necrons?

[Kargrym]

 

What the.... I find necrons to be one of the less damaging armies to play against just annoying to kill.  You live in the same area as me so hit me up in a message and we can set up a day to play, if I can see how you play I can probably help you out.  Necrons should be a winnable or close match up for DW, there is probably just something you are missing.

 

 

When are you going to bring back doing your youtube batreps GrinNfool?

[HighMarshalAmp]

irst things first, the Libby has one job and one job only: casting Might of Heroes on a Dread. What ever else he does isn't as important as that.

And 5 TH/SS Vets just don't have any cheap bodies. Drop 3 THs, then you get close to a balanced unit that's also less of a priority for your opponent if you play it right.

 

Concerning the game, I'll just list my thoughts in fabulous pink as the report goes along. Most of them have been brought up by others before.

 

BatRep Recap

 

Pre-Game:

Mission selected randomly out of CA2018 where we both rolled and picked from  the results in the book.

Deployment - Vanguard Strike (bottom left corner and top right corner 12" from the middle)

Mission - Objectives placed evenly around battlefield with each 1 worth 1 points. At battleround 2 a die is rolled to determine the active one for 2 points.

 

He won the roll and was able to deploy everything and go first. My attempt to seize failed

 

Deployment:

I tried to position in a way where my Assault Fortis Kill Team would be able to advance forwards with the jet pack libby and captain could follow for buffing, etc

What you did was providing a shooting gallery. No cover whatsoever. Even if they advanced, what good would it have been? They'd have been left standing out in the field.

It's a mistake to try to get them into RF range. SIA, in this case, makes up for that, it doesn't boost your potency in RF range.

Placed 1 Vet kill team in cover on the crater on the right and tucked away the other vet kill team out of LOS on the left building.

One into the Corvus (Whatever asinine illiterate told you 8 Vets, 1 VV and 1 Termie can't ride in the Corvus deserves a good kneeing to the Gentleman's Department. Don't do it yourself though, he ain't worth it.), one into the Teleportarium. Hell, spend the CP and tuck your large Intercessor blob away as well. You have the small Intercessor Squads to deny and score in your Deployment Zone. Captain stays in Orbit, Libby hides behind the Dreads.

Left some of the cheap 5 man intercessors where I could and placed the 2 dreads at the back end of my deployment zone and tucked the watch master and librarian out of LoS.

Why exactly is there LOS between the Dreads and ALL of the Necrons? Instead, move the Dreads into position turn 2 and hide them close to cover. Have them hug walls!

 

Corvus placed behind the assault Fortis team and frag team.

Again in full view. He should have gone where the Dreads were, just a lot closer to the high Pyramid and closer to it. He can move far and across terrain with impunity, there's no need to expose him early on.

 

Necron T1:

Movement:

He moved and advanced and swarmed outwards from his deployment zone (he did say he tends to play a horde style list with around 80 models). He was using the Dynasty Code where they can advance and shoot their RF weapons like they are Assaults (Sautekh?) At the end of the phase he had units and little flying :cusss all over the table.

That's what Necrons do. They're horde so they'll swarm the table early on. Yes, it s*cks.

 

Psychic:

No space wizards

 

Shooting:

This whole phase was a blur and I don't member what all that happened. I do recall several stratagems being using which included one stripping cover from the vet kill team in the "crater". Whole squad wiped (but on a side note my termination was a champ and tanked 8 out of 10 wounds before falling).

That's the difference between 'cover' and 'cover' in action. What he can't see, he can't shoot.

 

Another volley of fire with high volume of shots dusted the other members of the vet team. (He hates my frag teams so much after playing against them with his Nids).

And with good reason. At this point though, he's denying you a lot of Deep Striking territory, and that's important later on.

 

After that squad fell the destroyers and immortals (I think) opened up fire into the Fortis Assault team and wiped them out.

Shooting gallery.

Fliers began targeting the ven dreads and both of them were destroyed and then the 5 man intercessors were picked up. 

They should have been hugging walls at this point.

At the end of this phase I had my Watch Master, Smash Captain, Librarians, 1 vet team, 1 5 man intercessor left. And the Corvus,

I totally get why that ruined your morale. I'd have called it right there and then to try again from the start.

No charges made this turn.

 

Deathwatch Turn 1:

Movement: I scrambled to get anyone left alive into some form of cover or LoS, but there wasn't really many places to go.

This is actually the first time your guys should have come out of LOS blocked areas. Not just cover, but serious hard cover.

Psychic:

A few smites and a buff to the Smash Captain and Watch Master

Excellent. But as said, this is when you should boost in of your Dreads with MoH.

Shooting: 

A few pot shots from the intercessors hanging back and the Corvus targeting the Immortals and killing as many as possible.

Good move.

No charges

 

Necron T2:

Movement:

More units moved in and fliers flanked into my deployment zone. Some sniper type of guys showed up as well as a unit of 20 warriors and an HQ into my deployment zone. All objectives held by the Necrons.

That's why DS denial is important, and looking at the terrain placement, it could have worked. Having Intercessors do a Vet's or even Scout's job is luxury we can rarely afford, but it might work for you. I'd still try to get a few Vets there instead.

Shooting:

Less shots inbound this time as many of his units were out of LoS to my remaining force. Managed to shrug off most shots to my Librarian and Watch Master and Captain from the snipers.

I know, I'm a broken record, but this is what you take away from this game. LOS wins you the first turns.

 

Warriors fired into my vet team but due to poor rolls on his part and good rolls for me (gotta love dice games) no one died.

Schadenfreude. Nothing like it. Still, better hide it.

Deathwatch T2:

Movement:

I moved my vet team forward to get into auto hitting range of frag cannons of the warrior blob that teleported in previously. Kept the Librarians and Watch officers behind them. Fast phase as this was it.

Good move. But where's the Corvus?

Also, hypothetically, that's where all your units DS in. If possible, they'll land close to something juicy, but even if you end up deploying them in your own deployment zone, that's ok. At least they're alive and at full strength!

Focus high volume fire on the little flying :cusss and his units, but prioritize. See which unit you're most likely to delete and only stop shooting it when it's 100% dead and gone.

It doesn't have to be the closest unit 'cause Necrons do have range anyway and I doubt that your opponent wants to risk charging you. Facing DW Overwatch is a serious turn-off and, as has been said, even a 20 model Necron blob has only as many attacks as your Vet Squads, maybe less.

Plus Necrons like shooting better than CC so nobody will want to tie their Warriors or Immortals up and basically forfeit one round of shooting.

Psychic:

Another buff on the Smash Captain  and some smites only doing 1 mortal wound and a Null Zone.

Alternatively, MoH for a Dread if it's likely to come into LOS anytime soon. 

Shooting:

Used Furor Doctrine on the vet kill team and unloaded everything into the warrior blob. Rerolled a 1 on the Frag Cannon hits and got a lot more shots (can't remember exact number) and unloaded their storm bolters into them with Vengeance rounds. Deleted the whole Warriors unit and left the HQ exposed.

Very good! This is where the Corvus, if still alive, unloads everything on the HQ though.

Either way, it is at this point that for the first time, your Dreads should see action. If they waited patiently 'til now, that's fine. But having the HQ exposed is one if the situations that warrant moving the Dreads out of hard cover.

Watch Master took some shots at the HQ.

 

Charged the Watch Master at the HQ but failed charge. Spent CP to reroll but he tripped and fell on his hammer.

Aw hell no!

 

Game ended there.

What you said is half true - you lost the game in deployment but not in building the list.

 

They key now is to play again and deploy differently.

There's no army out there that'll last past a turn 1 in which it's being set up as a conga line with nothing to hide behind.

[GrinNfool]

 

 

What the.... I find necrons to be one of the less damaging armies to play against just annoying to kill.  You live in the same area as me so hit me up in a message and we can set up a day to play, if I can see how you play I can probably help you out.  Necrons should be a winnable or close match up for DW, there is probably just something you are missing.

 

 

When are you going to bring back doing your youtube batreps GrinNfool?

 

Haha didn't figure any 1 would actually watch those when we started them.  Wife and I do those for fun, but things got really busy for us, we run a 40k group, had a son, other life stuff, etc.  Hopefully we will find the time to resume those in the next few months is our target.

[SwashBuccaneer]

Wow that's some serious feedback Amp. Thanks for taking the time to write that up.

 

Looking at my pics again I'm not really seeing too much I could have hidden behind though beyind the giant pyramid on the left. Holding some dudes back in DS would have helped for sure and I could have hidden everyone behind the pyramid I guess.

[Kallas]

NB:

I believe that you've said you're a newer player. If that is incorrect, then I apologise as some of my comments are geared towards new player advice and may not apply! This isn't meant to be a knock on you, just trying to help as best I can, so please understand it's with the best intentions!

 

Looking at my pics again I'm not really seeing too much I could have hidden behind though beyind the giant pyramid on the left. Holding some dudes back in DS would have helped for sure and I could have hidden everyone behind the pyramid I guess.

 

Deployment is tough, plain and simple! It's very easy to make a mistake at deployment and not realise it until a turn, or even two or three, turns later! So don't beat yourself up about it too much!

 

From the looks of the picture you had the large pyramid and a smaller one in your deployment zone. The large one could, if your infantry were hugging close to it (eg, like your Frag Cannons were in the first picture), deny a lot of line of sight to a lot of enemy models (particularly their more slow moving infantry like the Warriors). The smaller pyramid, while less imposing, could block some smaller units (eg, five Intercessors) or at least reduce the amount of shots coming their way - and in conjunction with the very big central pyramid that could force your opponent to move awkwardly as well.

 

Aside from straight up LOS blocking, another very important factor to consider: range. Range is the ultimate protection: if you're out of range, you're invulnerable, doubly so when you have the greater striking distance (which is exactly what Kraken Bolt Rifles have vs Warriors!)

 

That said, the deployment type you rolled up is pretty rough! Vanguard Strike really limits your options, in a big way, so that's a rough draw off the bat. But you do also know that there is at least 24" between your closest two models at any given point. Since you were playing CA18 missions, the deployment was "all of [player one]" deploys then "all of [player two]" deploys.

 

Now, I do want to clarify: you said that your opponent "won the roll and was able to deploy everything and go first" - by this, do you mean that they 'lost' the roll off, meaning that you got to choose which side of the table you deployed on? Because if you didn't get to choose your deployment zone, your opponent made a mistake (as you said you're a newer player, I would assume that they were more 'in charge' of getting the game rolling; and I also don't want to ascribe the mistake to malice just yet!). Choice of deployment zone is almost as important as deployment itself, as it can radically change your deployment options. The side that you had does seem to have some reasonable positions of cover, at least, so if you did choose it then that's a good thing!

 

Since your opponent should have deployed their entire army first, you have the opportunity to completely counter-deploy - meaning that you get to dictate any initial engagements. With premeasurement, you can identify exactly where their units can reach you (ignoring the Doom Scythe, which can literally hit anything you have because it's a fast Flyer!), so you have the potential to deploy your units to best take advantage of their ranges. For example, a lot of his shooting outside of the Destroyers seems to be concentrated on your right flank - if you deployed hard to you left, hugging the pyramid, you could have severely limited the amount of Warriors that could even get to shoot at all, which would significantly reduce your incoming damage. Those Destroyers are likely going to get to shoot you anyway, as they're reasonably fast and have good range; so trying to get away from them is unlikely.

 

Your units that were out on the right flank basically gave your opponent shots that they might have otherwise been unable to take at all with a different deployment.

 

A few other things:

Redeployment options are quite powerful, if somewhat limited for Deathwatch. The Beacon Angelis, which you had, could have let you 'jump' a unit forward to engage at close range. It may not have been a great idea, as that unit would be functionally on its own in the heart of the enemy army, but that is still a good use, potentially.

 

Another thing, which you didn't have in your list but I would recommend thinking about: Bikers with Teleport Homers. You can slap one into a Veteran unit and any unit with a Terminator in can teleport the whole unit to that beacon. If you had, say, one Homer, you could have deployed that far out on your right flank (after seeing your opponent's deployment), and used that to 'jump' out, possibly in support of the Beacon jumped unit, giving you two. Obviously that is a list difference, but I would strongly recommend Bikers for exactly this reason - a lot of people forget about or severely underestimate Teleport Homers (and generally with reason), but that early redeployment can make a big difference if you need it. If you opponent were to go after the Homer (easy enough) they'd have to get units close enough to remove it (and from the pictures, that seems like it would have been unlikely, given what was arrayed against you on the right flank).

 

Basically, I think a hard left flank deployment would have served you far better than deploying along the front line. While seizing the initiative is a possibility, in CA18 missions if you're deploying second I would recommend that you deploy with the assumption that you are going second: block LOS as much as possible, and give the enemy as little to shoot at as possible (assuming they're a shooty army, like this Necron army is!) with that and range.

 

+++++

 

Final note: it's very easy for us to dissect this, sitting at our respective homes (or wherever) and having all the time in the world to consider things, but ultimately you're always going to be up against it and, simply, a lot of these kinds of thoughts don't just come naturally. As a newer player, you'll likely get hit by a lot of things that you simply don't have the built up knowledge of how to tackle. While you're learning (and just generally!) - ask a lot of questions. Ask your opponents if their army is 'shooty' or 'melee focused'; ask if they're fast; ask what's fast, and what's shooty. Also, say to them that you're newer player and that you're trying to get a grip on things; a lot of people will be very amenable and help out: some might give you a lot of great advice throughout the game, some might just be more open in general; and some will be closed off and not be that helpful (and these ones are probably ones that you might want to avoid for future learning games, as some will just take the opportunity to win hard - it's a shame, but some people are like that...). If you have a good gaming group, ask for someone to give you a good learning game, where they'll help take you through some of the nuances of the game (eg, some of the very potent but tricky melee tricks in the game), and help guide you through your own army; some experienced players will be able to give great advice on deployment, movement, etc; and the best ones will actively help you in the middle of your turn ("Actually, if you put [x] here instead, you'll restrict my LOS over here and still be able to do that").

 

Deathwatch aren't the most forgiving army to learn. They're elite and low model count, so every loss hurts; their units are potent and flexible, but that means you need to learn where to hit the enemy to deal the most telling blows meaning that you need to hold a fair amount of information in your head at any given moment. They're not a super easy force to just pick up and do well with, but once you get a handle on their basics I think you'll do fine; a solid grasp of basic probability and the fundamentals of the game at large, and you'll be grand!

 

Good luck, purge the Xenos, and your Brothers are here to help!

[Ultramarine vet]

NB:

I believe that you've said you're a newer player. If that is incorrect, then I apologise as some of my comments are geared towards new player advice and may not apply! This isn't meant to be a knock on you, just trying to help as best I can, so please understand it's with the best intentions!

 

 

Looking at my pics again I'm not really seeing too much I could have hidden behind though beyind the giant pyramid on the left. Holding some dudes back in DS would have helped for sure and I could have hidden everyone behind the pyramid I guess.

 

Deployment is tough, plain and simple! It's very easy to make a mistake at deployment and not realise it until a turn, or even two or three, turns later! So don't beat yourself up about it too much!

 

From the looks of the picture you had the large pyramid and a smaller one in your deployment zone. The large one could, if your infantry were hugging close to it (eg, like your Frag Cannons were in the first picture), deny a lot of line of sight to a lot of enemy models (particularly their more slow moving infantry like the Warriors). The smaller pyramid, while less imposing, could block some smaller units (eg, five Intercessors) or at least reduce the amount of shots coming their way - and in conjunction with the very big central pyramid that could force your opponent to move awkwardly as well.

 

Aside from straight up LOS blocking, another very important factor to consider: range. Range is the ultimate protection: if you're out of range, you're invulnerable, doubly so when you have the greater striking distance (which is exactly what Kraken Bolt Rifles have vs Warriors!)

 

That said, the deployment type you rolled up is pretty rough! Vanguard Strike really limits your options, in a big way, so that's a rough draw off the bat. But you do also know that there is at least 24" between your closest two models at any given point. Since you were playing CA18 missions, the deployment was "all of [player one]" deploys then "all of [player two]" deploys.

 

Now, I do want to clarify: you said that your opponent "won the roll and was able to deploy everything and go first" - by this, do you mean that they 'lost' the roll off, meaning that you got to choose which side of the table you deployed on? Because if you didn't get to choose your deployment zone, your opponent made a mistake (as you said you're a newer player, I would assume that they were more 'in charge' of getting the game rolling; and I also don't want to ascribe the mistake to malice just yet!). Choice of deployment zone is almost as important as deployment itself, as it can radically change your deployment options. The side that you had does seem to have some reasonable positions of cover, at least, so if you did choose it then that's a good thing!

 

Since your opponent should have deployed their entire army first, you have the opportunity to completely counter-deploy - meaning that you get to dictate any initial engagements. With premeasurement, you can identify exactly where their units can reach you (ignoring the Doom Scythe, which can literally hit anything you have because it's a fast Flyer!), so you have the potential to deploy your units to best take advantage of their ranges. For example, a lot of his shooting outside of the Destroyers seems to be concentrated on your right flank - if you deployed hard to you left, hugging the pyramid, you could have severely limited the amount of Warriors that could even get to shoot at all, which would significantly reduce your incoming damage. Those Destroyers are likely going to get to shoot you anyway, as they're reasonably fast and have good range; so trying to get away from them is unlikely.

 

Your units that were out on the right flank basically gave your opponent shots that they might have otherwise been unable to take at all with a different deployment.

 

A few other things:

Redeployment options are quite powerful, if somewhat limited for Deathwatch. The Beacon Angelis, which you had, could have let you 'jump' a unit forward to engage at close range. It may not have been a great idea, as that unit would be functionally on its own in the heart of the enemy army, but that is still a good use, potentially.

 

Another thing, which you didn't have in your list but I would recommend thinking about: Bikers with Teleport Homers. You can slap one into a Veteran unit and any unit with a Terminator in can teleport the whole unit to that beacon. If you had, say, one Homer, you could have deployed that far out on your right flank (after seeing your opponent's deployment), and used that to 'jump' out, possibly in support of the Beacon jumped unit, giving you two. Obviously that is a list difference, but I would strongly recommend Bikers for exactly this reason - a lot of people forget about or severely underestimate Teleport Homers (and generally with reason), but that early redeployment can make a big difference if you need it. If you opponent were to go after the Homer (easy enough) they'd have to get units close enough to remove it (and from the pictures, that seems like it would have been unlikely, given what was arrayed against you on the right flank).

 

Basically, I think a hard left flank deployment would have served you far better than deploying along the front line. While seizing the initiative is a possibility, in CA18 missions if you're deploying second I would recommend that you deploy with the assumption that you are going second: block LOS as much as possible, and give the enemy as little to shoot at as possible (assuming they're a shooty army, like this Necron army is!) with that and range.

 

+++++

 

Final note: it's very easy for us to dissect this, sitting at our respective homes (or wherever) and having all the time in the world to consider things, but ultimately you're always going to be up against it and, simply, a lot of these kinds of thoughts don't just come naturally. As a newer player, you'll likely get hit by a lot of things that you simply don't have the built up knowledge of how to tackle. While you're learning (and just generally!) - ask a lot of questions. Ask your opponents if their army is 'shooty' or 'melee focused'; ask if they're fast; ask what's fast, and what's shooty. Also, say to them that you're newer player and that you're trying to get a grip on things; a lot of people will be very amenable and help out: some might give you a lot of great advice throughout the game, some might just be more open in general; and some will be closed off and not be that helpful (and these ones are probably ones that you might want to avoid for future learning games, as some will just take the opportunity to win hard - it's a shame, but some people are like that...). If you have a good gaming group, ask for someone to give you a good learning game, where they'll help take you through some of the nuances of the game (eg, some of the very potent but tricky melee tricks in the game), and help guide you through your own army; some experienced players will be able to give great advice on deployment, movement, etc; and the best ones will actively help you in the middle of your turn ("Actually, if you put [x] here instead, you'll restrict my LOS over here and still be able to do that").

 

Deathwatch aren't the most forgiving army to learn. They're elite and low model count, so every loss hurts; their units are potent and flexible, but that means you need to learn where to hit the enemy to deal the most telling blows meaning that you need to hold a fair amount of information in your head at any given moment. They're not a super easy force to just pick up and do well with, but once you get a handle on their basics I think you'll do fine; a solid grasp of basic probability and the fundamentals of the game at large, and you'll be grand!

 

Good luck, purge the Xenos, and your Brothers are here to help!

That is exactly what I did when I got into 40k. I befriended one of the best players in the store, and he would demolish me almost every single time I played him. Lol. But after each game, he would tell me what I did wrong and how to improve in the future. And the biggest, and yet most simple piece of advice I got, was READ YOUR CODEX. Lol.

 

Great post Kallas.