Chaos Havocs tactics/loadout

[40k nut]

I'm trying to wrap my head around the new havocs. The thing that bothers me the most is that they can only be in a five man squads. In the past with a ten man squad I could pull the basic bolter guys if they took casualties, keeping the heavy weapons in use longer.

How do we field these guys now? Are they still a camp out somewhere and shoot unit, relying on out ranging the opponent? Or do they need to be in a transport in order to be protected and then jump out, do a round of shooting and possibly get shot off the board in retaliation? Especially in regards to the short range reaper chain cannon. If they were in a transport would you put another five man unit of something else inside with them, and what would it be in order to compliment them?

Another issue is that the champion would presumably be the first model to pull as a casualty, I was thinking of keeping him cheap with a combi bolter and chainsword.

Thoughts?

[Captain Incompetence]

From my limited time playtesting them, I've found that T5 is often underestimated by both myself and my opponents. making even overcharged plasma wound only on a 3+ is pretty good. This combined with them not having any penalty on moving and shooting heavy weapons allows them quite some flexibility in how you use them. I've personally never placed them in a vehicle, but I can see the appeal of protecting a squad from the initial shooting phase. However, I wonder if the rhino is even worth the price of admission for them seeing as you'll constantly want to be jumping out of the vehicle to shoot anyway and I rarely seem to be out of range of targets to begin with.

 

As for loadouts, the Reaper Chaincannon is obviously extremely good against both light and heavy infantry alike and can potentially even threaten vehicles with VotLW. However this amount of firepower and the 24" range means they'll become a huge target for your opponent during the shooting phase and I would definitely advice that you keep them in cover at all times and even support them with defensive Dark Prayers or Psychic Powers. I've personally not had much success with autocannons, as their lack of AP always comes to bite me in the ass. Lascannons are obviously good if you want some long range anti-vehicle and if you have a nice position they might be worth the time. However, at that pricepoint, I wonder if you're not better off taking a predator or helbrute for similar long-range support.

 

I've always kept the champion as basic as possible with just a regular bolter and chainsword. He's always going to be the first casualty in the squad due to his lack of heavy weapon so spending points on a plasma or melta is a waste. If you're using chaincannons you could justify a combi-bolter if you're planning on being relatively immobile. However, I tend to find these guys need to move around atleast a bit, so you rarely benefit from bolter-discipline. If you're using other heavy weapons, you'll want to stay outside of 24" range, so the combi-weapons are completely useless.

[Scourged]

T5 in cover is surprisingly survivable. A squad sticking around in the deployment zone with apostle buffs is an annoying little unit. Four lascannons that hit on 2+ are quite solid.

 

I personally disagree about autocannons though. I love them. It keeps the squad cheap, but you have to pick your targets. Bikes and terminators hate them. So do primaris. I've annoyed many a hellblaster squad with autocannons. And they have surprising value against skimmers. They're a subtle threat, cheaply chipping away at the right targets.

 

Chaimcannons are... Gratuitous. I've done the squad in a Rhino thing once with them so far. They are a delete button. And with 3 cp pumped into them, they are nasty. But your opponent will know this. That squad will be a priority for them. No one wants to face 32/64 of those shots from one squad, so their death will be prioritized.

 

Them and another basic marines squad in a Rhino is what I've run. They jump out turn two near an objective and unload, with the plain marines screening them against some incoming threats when they can.

[Relic]

I have yet to run the new havocs, so that is my disclaimer. I have faced them. 

 

My general inclination is that the anti tank weapons are too expensive on a somewhat flimsy platform. You're better off like Space Marines looking to characters like smash lords to do the heavy lifting in that department. 

 

The anti infantry options I think are probably fine. A heavy bolter squad sitting on a backfield objective in cover is cheap enough and moving+firing helps turn one. The chaincannon havocs need a delivery mechanism and will clear chaff like no tomorrow. The only caveat i'd put on that is - I think CSM kill chaff well and have various options in this department. Killing hordes is not CSM problem, reliable anti tank is an issue for the codex imo. 

 

So I don't think havocs solve this problem. Like I said before the solution to heavy duty lifting is probably your characters. 

[Prot]

New Havocs have been hit and miss for me. I have them running around but you really do need Aura support to make them really work. So this does force a sort of mob mentality which, sadly, does remind me of playing space marines a lot.

 

The limited squad is a big sticking point. Last game I fizzled with the chaincannon. I felt confident in runes until a Dark Eldar bomber flew over them and on a 3+ , your models suffer mortal wounds... I did foresee this and gave them Delightful Agonies but didn’t pass any.

 

T5 means very little in my meta. They are fragile. You must be frugal with them. Hit strong firing lanes in cover. Limit return fire...do not throw them to the lions, they are not Oblits in this way. I feel very strongly that you are conservative with this squad or you are resigning them to mostly one shot wonder status.

[BrainFireBob]

What about things like this?

 

Chaincannons with Berzerkers in rhino

Playing for turn 2. Deploy without LoS. Move 6" and shoot

[Panzer]

What about things like this?

 

Chaincannons with Berzerkers in rhino

Playing for turn 2. Deploy without LoS. Move 6" and shoot

That'd be a very dead Rhino. Lots of value inside a small T7 box. ^^

[BrainFireBob]

Run a leviathan or two as well

[Marshlands]

I have a dreadclaw so looking forward to giving that a try with 2 squads inside and a 3rd deployed for the free round of shooting

[MegaVolt87]

I am going to be running 2 lascannon, ML, Autocannon havoc squads and one with heavy bolters. Chain cannons in 3 12 man squads, 2 each in there for my IW. Semms like a good mix of shooting, I can use two squads at one target if its a heavy target like a knight/ LR, one unit if its like a pread etc. Also, its got enough variety in weapons as not to waste shooting at heavier infantry. 

[Panzer]

I'd love to use 2x5 with Chaincannon in a Termite Drill, but I'm not ready to invest so much into new CSM models without knowing whether I can use them for Emperor's Children once they get their own Codex. ^^

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

What about things like this?

 

Chaincannons with Berzerkers in rhino

Playing for turn 2. Deploy without LoS. Move 6" and shoot

TEETH OF KHORNE!!!

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

What about things like this?

 

Chaincannons with Berzerkers in rhino

Playing for turn 2. Deploy without LoS. Move 6" and shoot

That'd be a very dead Rhino. Lots of value inside a small T7 box. ^^

 

World Eaters could have 3 without much of a problem, plus other threats, and fill out a Battalion plus a spearhead if they just have 3 Hammerlords on Jump Packs following behind. :)

[undivided_apostle]

I have experimented with a two auto cannon two missile launcher build (that way I can sneak the chain cannon into a csm squad). Its okay but in terms of effectiveness I get more out of obliterators.

 

Havocs are a really challenging unit because if they are too threatening they will either have to hide and be less effective or be a priority target.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I'd love to use 2x5 with Chaincannon in a Termite Drill, but I'm not ready to invest so much into new CSM models without knowing whether I can use them for Emperor's Children once they get their own Codex. ^^

Yeah, that'd be nasty. Good call.

[Verbal Underbelly]

Setting them up in a transport to protect them from first turn shooting is a good idea. They can then get out 3" and make their normal move after that and light something up. In terms of load-out I'd like to run 2 lascannon and 2 autocannon with just a bolter on the champion.

[Midnight Brotherhood]

Setting them up in a transport to protect them from first turn shooting is a good idea. They can then get out 3" and make their normal move after that and light something up. In terms of load-out I'd like to run 2 lascannon and 2 autocannon with just a bolter on the champion.

 

This is the same weapon configuration I'm going for too, strong enough to be anti-tank and anti-multiwound infantry. Lascannons are still great again monsters or 3+ wound infantry, they don't always have to be pointed at tanks/vehicles :D

[Trevak Dal]

You know I never really took extra guys (mostly because of moral in 8th) but 5 t5 guys (...kinda wish they went the full heresy bit and let us take 5 heavy weapons) are kinda...weird.

 

I mean, they are distinct from regular Marines now so there's that but the limitation is...weird.

 

I'm a little disappointed about losing the ability to take special weapons...but again I suppose chosen are the "special weapons guys".

 

My issue with my world eaters is, my primary focus is Berserkers. To add stuff to it...I got to take away berserkers/rhinos/maulerDogs/. My army lists start with 8x4 Khorne Berserkers champs with powerfists, icons of wrath, three units with bolt pistols and chain swords one with chain axes and pistols, 4 rhinos, I put a Lord with claws, a exChamp with the Murder Sword and a dark apostle in.

 

I got a lot of assets laying in pieces/various states of disrepair, I got guys who could be chosen, guys who are havocs, and I can use them for now...but might not be able to if/when they make a world eaters book. And I want it to not suck (like every unit has the in built zerker fight twice thing)

[Tokugawa]

How about:

 

use AL strategem to infiltrate 4 miniguns forward. Find some los blocking position to hide.

 

Going first: go upstairs and fire 64 shots!

Going second/seized: use vigilus detc ability to fire 32 shots to visible targets, absorb bullets and die.

[Sonoftherubric21]

I run 3 units. 

4 Autocannons. 

4 Rocket.

4 Las.

 

What I have found is that the distance (48 across) is a huge boon in their survival. Alot of things won't (or can't) return fire at that distance. The Autocannons in particular as stated previously are really unsung heroes. Cheap enough to not be a big deal, but just dangerous enough to bring down things that matter without being a gigantic bullseye of a target....but if ignored? They deal plenty of solid damage against Multiwounds. 

 

I may be in the minority but I love Missile Launchers. Their utility is great and I aprpeciate the ability to swap. Nothing sucks more then bringing a Las cannon team only to find.....the enemy has no tanks/walkers or big nasties.....

[Excessus]

First thing I did was make 4x lascannon havocs. I'm missing a bit of anti-tank punch in my lists usually...

[Prot]

I’m all over the place on this.

 

I admit I really thought they were going to be great, and to a degree they are but I’m still on the fence on load out.

 

For example I thought chaincannons were going to be the cat’s meow. The more I play them, the less I like them. It’s the 24”.

 

I actually started adding a heavy Bolter to shave points. The squad excels at screen clearing.... but in my lists so do Cultists.

 

I thought I’d get more value out of them by using Vets of the long war in them but in most cases I find it more valuable elsewhere.

 

I’ve always used one squad of Lascannons but I’m finding my recent experiences and testing with missiles are perhaps better, and more well rounded. Frag missiles are line light Chaincannons with range and the ability to after heavies with Krak rounds is super flexible. Too many hard yprargets I’m facing have great saves so it feels like I’d rather have 20 some odd shots at 2 damage than 4 lascannons for example. Tau are a great example of why my las feels lacklustre but a Helverin type Autocannon is great.

 

I’ve been p,aging two Havoc squads and Oblits. I went from proxying a third missile Havoc squad to going out and buying one. I’m half way through assembling it.

 

Also the list is so important. If you can’t pushback your opponent, chaincannons are really difficult, but in a Daemon engine list they get more breathing room.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm still convinced chaincannons are a better option for Troop squads than they are for Havocs.

[Prot]

I'm still convinced chaincannons are a better option for Troop squads than they are for Havocs.

 

Quite possibly. I played a few games now with a 5 man squad with a Chaincannon and it did very little, but I was always on the move with it so firing -1 against Tau means -2 to -3 a lot of the time. Sometimes I think a bunch of flamers would be just the way to go for troops... just advancing and burnin' stuff. 

[MegaVolt87]

At 5 man, still think its best for 2 las, 1 ML 1 AC. I think if you got 2 havoc units, just absolute mad lad to have just x4 lascannon in just one 5 man unit. Two units of las, get it, but just one is crazy to me. I always ran 10 man for 4 las to keep them around in older editions. Modern problems require modern solutions.