BA specific unit idea

[Guest]

Heil og sael sons of Sanguinis,

Over on the SW forums I put forth an idea for a SW primaris specific troop choice. This came up with some great ideas, and ultimately a make-shift stat sheet. I put forth the same challenge to you. Develop a balanced primaris troop choice.

A few ideas is reaching back to the HH days for ideas, the SW's based theirs off of the Grey Slayers with addition of unique grenades from the Deathsworn.

Below is the data sheet I made, please note the power level should 9 not 7.
http://bolterandchainsword.com/uploads/gallery/album_15164/gallery_94113_15164_14016.png

[t-dog1996]

Well for me the one thing that would make Primaris viable in a Blood Angels army would be a good CC unit. Right now our Original Marines are just better at what we do best than the Primaris Marines. Building off the idea of revisiting older units, they could potentially have a CC unit similar to but distinct from the Crimson Paladins of the Horus Heresy. I don't think simply taking an older unit and whacking the name Primaris in front of it is the way to go, but there's no harm in looking to classics for inspiration.

[Guest]

The point wasn't to throw primaris in front of a HH troop, but take inspiration from them. The primaris seem to take from the HH than 40k in how they operate, which makes sense as they are from the just post-HH. The primaris grey slayers only share some key things with the original grey slayers, which is heavy use of SS and melee weapons. However they lack the bolter+SS the grey slayers have.

 

I don't have any idea what HH units BA have, but something like power weapon+ flamer pistol and jump pack would seem to fit the BA theme. Then again I have no idea what you have that is unique. Then again you can say "screw HH, we want something more 40k".

[Demoulius]

IMHO Reivers kinda already fill that gap for BA's. Theyre brutal assault specialists and their grav shute insertions sound alot like the trials that aspirants for the chapter had to go through to in order to reach the proving grounds.

 

They would only be better if they also had jump packs

[Ironandforge]

i feel like something along the lines of an intceptor squad armed with the equinox power blades and some kind of combat shield could be interesting

[Dont-Be-Haten]

IMHO Reivers kinda already fill that gap for BA's. Theyre brutal assault specialists and their grav shute insertions sound alot like the trials that aspirants for the chapter had to go through to in order to reach the proving grounds.

 

They would only be better if they also had jump packs

The problem is lore wise BA do not like filling the roll of the Reiever. It is distasteful and not an honourable method of warfare. The successors are a different story, but as far as the parent chapter goes, they only take this mantle begrudgingly.

 

If you were to make a BA specific troop unit, a melee variant to intercessors is all the change you would need. 1 per five can take a chainsword or powersword in addition to the sergeant.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

Inceptors with power swords and hand flamers is what we really need IMO. Jump pack plus pistol flamers is the best way to burn enemies.

[Panzer]

Not sure about HH units but in 40k BA are very Codex compliant, so unlike SW they don't really need something special.

Now if we do wishlisting then I'll go with a Gravis unit with some kind of shield and the option to take melee weapons as well. ;)

[Demoulius]

 

IMHO Reivers kinda already fill that gap for BA's. Theyre brutal assault specialists and their grav shute insertions sound alot like the trials that aspirants for the chapter had to go through to in order to reach the proving grounds.

 

They would only be better if they also had jump packs

The problem is lore wise BA do not like filling the roll of the Reiever. It is distasteful and not an honourable method of warfare. The successors are a different story, but as far as the parent chapter goes, they only take this mantle begrudgingly.

 

If you were to make a BA specific troop unit, a melee variant to intercessors is all the change you would need. 1 per five can take a chainsword or powersword in addition to the sergeant.

 

Well they dislike it, but wouldnt say no to the role.

 

The BA's also have devastators which are a far more static and ranged unit, which disallows them the ability to fly or to tear things up in combat. Yet they still do so anyway.

 

They see the merit behind the unit even if they find it distastefull. And they will use Reivers if it is needed to complete their task.

[Panzer]

 

 

IMHO Reivers kinda already fill that gap for BA's. Theyre brutal assault specialists and their grav shute insertions sound alot like the trials that aspirants for the chapter had to go through to in order to reach the proving grounds.

 

They would only be better if they also had jump packs

The problem is lore wise BA do not like filling the roll of the Reiever. It is distasteful and not an honourable method of warfare. The successors are a different story, but as far as the parent chapter goes, they only take this mantle begrudgingly.

 

If you were to make a BA specific troop unit, a melee variant to intercessors is all the change you would need. 1 per five can take a chainsword or powersword in addition to the sergeant.

 

Well they dislike it, but wouldnt say no to the role.

 

The BA's also have devastators which are a far more static and ranged unit, which disallows them the ability to fly or to tear things up in combat. Yet they still do so anyway.

 

They see the merit behind the unit even if they find it distastefull. And they will use Reivers if it is needed to complete their task.

 

 

That's different.

BA dislike Reivers because it goes against their ethic. They are the guys who do shock&awe, not terror tactics. Those are pretty much two exact opposites.

Devastators they don't mind at all though. They follow the Codex Astartes as much as possible and just because they have a thing for Jump Packs and melee it doesn't mean they don't shoot things as well (that being said I'm very glad we got Suppressors now as they'll replace all my Hellblasters lol).

[Xenith]

Indeed, BA are a codex compliant chapter, and their basic units should be as per the codex.

 

As per Iron and Forge, some form of jump unit with paired blades would be ace. Inceptors drop in close from orbit, and could be said to be shock and awe.

 

Twin power blades in place of twin bolters would be the order of the day, though I'd prefer them with an invulnerable.

 

I dont know how suited to combat Gravis armour is. I'd assume they need a less cumbersome suit type.

 

Here's my thoughts:

 

 

Elites Choice:

Blood Angels Light Bringers: 30 points per model, Photonic blades are 12pts each (54ppm total)

 

Equipment: Artificer Levis Armour; Two Photonic blades.

 

M:14"; WS: 3+; BS: 3+; S:4; T:4; W:2; A:3; Sv: 2+; Ld: 8.

 

Photonic blade: S: User; AP-4; D:2. A model with two photonic blades makes an additional attack in the fight phase

 

Meteoric Descent: As Inceptors

Wrath of Aeons: All enemy units within 6" of any LIGHBRINGERS have a -1Ld penalty. 

 

Keywords: IMPERIUM, ADEPTUS ASTARTES, BLOOD ANGELS

Faction Keywords: INFANTRY, JUMP PACK, MK X LEVIS, PRIMARIS, FLY, LIGHTBRINGERS

 

Notes:

Levis Armour: Designed for mobility and freedom of movement like Phobos armour, but without the silent running, Mk. X Levis Armour is shielded for atmospheric drops like Gravis, but no so cumbersome meaning is is less effective as a mobile weapons platform. Artificer Levis Armour is the genius of Belisarious Cawl matched to the master artisans of the Blood Angels. Unlike the barren cousins, each Artificer Levis suit is a masterwork of golden scuplted muscleature. To the foes of the Imperium, it is like their deities of ancient myth returned anew to visit damnation upon them.

 

They may be slightly underpointed, but are probably right for a Primaris unit. Still die fast to plasma or other high AP D2 weapons. 

[Panzer]

Indeed, BA are a codex compliant chapter, and their basic units should be as per the codex.

 

As per Iron and Forge, some form of jump unit with paired blades would be ace. Inceptors drop in close from orbit, and could be said to be shock and awe.

 

Twin power blades in place of twin bolters would be the order of the day, though I'd prefer them with an invulnerable.

 

I dont know how suited to combat Gravis armour is. I'd assume they need a less cumbersome suit type.

 

Here's my thoughts:

 

 

Elites Choice:

Blood Angels Light Bringers: 30 points per model, Photonic blades are 12pts each (54ppm total)

 

Equipment: Artificer Levis Armour; Two Photonic blades.

 

M:14"; WS: 3+; BS: 3+; S:4; T:4; W:2; A:3; Sv: 2+; Ld: 8.

 

Photonic blade: S: User; AP-4; D:2. A model with two photonic blades makes an additional attack in the fight phase

 

Meteoric Descent: As Inceptors

Wrath of Aeons: All enemy units within 6" of any LIGHBRINGERS have a -1Ld penalty. 

 

Keywords: IMPERIUM, ADEPTUS ASTARTES, BLOOD ANGELS

Faction Keywords: INFANTRY, JUMP PACK, MK X LEVIS, PRIMARIS, FLY, LIGHTBRINGERS

 

Notes:

Levis Armour: Designed for mobility and freedom of movement like Phobos armour, but without the silent running, Mk. X Levis Armour is shielded for atmospheric drops like Gravis, but no so cumbersome meaning is is less effective as a mobile weapons platform. Artificer Levis Armour is the genius of Belisarious Cawl matched to the master artisans of the Blood Angels. Unlike the barren cousins, each Artificer Levis suit is a masterwork of golden scuplted muscleature. To the foes of the Imperium, it is like their deities of ancient myth returned anew to visit damnation upon them.

 

They may be slightly underpointed, but are probably right for a Primaris unit. Still die fast to plasma or other high AP D2 weapons.

I like the idea, but I actually think they are too expensive even.

There's a point where regardless of the damage output a melee unit just can't become more expensive because it struggles to deliver said damage output. Greater Daemons are actually a great example for this as while they do a LOT of damage when they arrive ... they just never arrive in 40k.

At 54ppm they are 13ppm more expensive than TH/SS Termiantors and less durable. 19ppm more expensive than Lighting Claw Terminators, but those are still too expensive imo anyway. They have more mobility but without dense terrain that doesn't mean much if you want to start them on the board.

Now we have a serious balancing problem as Blood Angels in that regard ... without Descent of Angels they'd be too expensive because most of the time they'd drop, fail their charge and get vaporized in our opponents next turn, or they try to move up the board and get vaporized. However thanks to our Stratagem it's not unlikely for them to make the charge out of reserves as long as we have the CP so they can't be too cheap either.

 

I honestly have no solution for this. With high point costs they depend completely on the Stratagem to work at all but with lower point costs they'd become too good with the Stratagem. Neither is good from a design perspective. A unit should be good without any Stratagem support and not broken with Stratagem support. Then again we do have Captain Smash who is kinda broken due Stratagem support (though you have to stack multiple different things to achieve that).

[Xenith]

Yea, it's a tricky one. My gut says 40ppm Inc weapons, but I'd rather overcost than undercost for them. Needs playtesting.

[Charlo]

So I guess you need to have a situation arise where a new unit would be developed before it can happen. This could be the Primaris Marines themselves, now fully immersed in the Chapter's Culture, expanding on an existing battlefield role to suit their new doctrine. It could be a specific battlefield occurrence where say, a make-shift unit is created and then fully tested later. It could even be as simple as "Cawls vaults have opened once again, this time he's been looking at specific chapter war efforts and matching his creation to them."

 

The unit I have in my head is a BA specific offshoot of the new Vanguard Primaris "Chamber" (to use the AoS term thrown around).

 

A scouting and information gathering force, created to overwhelm outposts ahead of the main force or other strategically important location's with one mission in mind: consume the enemy and gain their knowledge - an ability Astartes have but is seldom used in the game.

 

Members of this squad would be those Primaris who have fully come to accept and embrace the Red Thirst of their parent chapter. Those who are restless for want of the enemies blood. There is a strong chance the units genesis could've originated from the Blood Drinkers or Flesh Eaters chapters etc.

 

In terms of armour, it's MkX Phobos. Grav chutes are nice but all Blood Angels long to fly - however stealth is clearly an important part of their role so they can't go jumping around with full thrusters. Something akin to a cross grav-chute with some lower powered packs would be fine. Essentially they'd be able to Scout Deploy and once per game the pack would allow a reroll to charges and let them ignore all intervening models/ terrain etc.

 

Weapons would need to be those effective at close range (think command bunkers and the like) so I'm thinking the Cawl version of the Astartes Shot-Gun. Due to a Primaris' size they can use this new weapon in one hand and is a powerful, albeit short ranged pistol. 6" S4 AP2 D3 Auto Hits.

 

In terms of CC, their Flensing Knives serve multiple roles of interrogation weapons, precision death dealers and of course; Meal Prep ;) Basically it's large and serrated. S:User AP1 any 6 to hit is an automatic wound.

 

The "Gimmick" of this squad would be granting intel upon thier kill of an enemy CHARACTER, in close combat e.g. awarding an additional CP. Only max of one per turn however. The Warlord would be worth 3 CP however.

 

In terms of a themed stratagem, I thinking something akin to the Custodes Allarus Terminators rules that always allow them to pile-in towards characters, regardless of who is closest.

 

Maybe there is also some kind of signal jamming wargear they have that turns off enemy Warlord Traits from affecting other units for a turn.

 

Finally, they will include a Sanguinary Noviate. As they are operating ahead of the main force for extended periods of time and will need support. In addition, this particular Apothecary will be skilled in saving samples of the enemies that have been slain, for later consumption by other members of the chapter.

[Panzer]

A scouting and information gathering force, created to overwhelm outposts ahead of the main force or other strategically important location's with one mission in mind: consume the enemy and gain their knowledge - an ability Astartes have but is seldom used in the game.

 

Members of this squad would be those Primaris who have fully come to accept and embrace the Red Thirst of their parent chapter. Those who are restless for want of the enemies blood. There is a strong chance the units genesis could've originated from the Blood Drinkers or Flesh Eaters chapters etc.

 

In terms of armour, it's MkX Phobos. Grav chutes are nice but all Blood Angels long to fly - however stealth is clearly an important part of their role so they can't go jumping around with full thrusters. Something akin to a cross grav-chute with some lower powered packs would be fine. Essentially they'd be able to Scout Deploy and once per game the pack would allow a reroll to charges and let them ignore all intervening models/ terrain etc.

 

Weapons would need to be those effective at close range (think command bunkers and the like) so I'm thinking the Cawl version of the Astartes Shot-Gun. Due to a Primaris' size they can use this new weapon in one hand and is a powerful, albeit short ranged pistol. 6" S4 AP2 D3 Auto Hits.

 

In terms of CC, their Flensing Knives serve multiple roles of interrogation weapons, precision death dealers and of course; Meal Prep Basically it's large and serrated. S:User AP1 any 6 to hit is an automatic wound.

 

The "Gimmick" of this squad would be granting intel upon thier kill of an enemy CHARACTER, in close combat e.g. awarding an additional CP. Only max of one per turn however. The Warlord would be worth 3 CP however.

 

In terms of a themed stratagem, I thinking something akin to the Custodes Allarus Terminators rules that always allow them to pile-in towards characters, regardless of who is closest.

 

Maybe there is also some kind of signal jamming wargear they have that turns off enemy Warlord Traits from affecting other units for a turn.

 

Finally, they will include a Sanguinary Noviate. As they are operating ahead of the main force for extended periods of time and will need support. In addition, this particular Apothecary will be skilled in saving samples of the enemies that have been slain, for later consumption by other members of the chapter.

 

I often theorized that the Blood Angels with their Red Thirst got designed by big E to do exactly that but it gets focussed so much on as a negative trait and suppressing/controlling it is good, without big E ever saying or hinting otherwise, I never really used that theory for anything.

 

Keep in mind that those who completely embrace the Red Thirst are walking the path of Knights of Blood and Flesh Tearers though (once more a focus on it being a negative trait in the fluff).

 

Using grav-chutes and lower powered thrusters is a great idea and is pretty much exactly what Suppressors have.

Considering that the default backpack thrusters together with grav-chutes aren't enough to provide additional mobility to Reivers who are wearing Phobos armour (would be great if it would increase the movement stat if you take both upgrades to think of) and Suppressors are wearing a mix of Tacticus and Gravis armour and need 4 additional thrusters (two on the backpack and two on the legs) to get the same kind of mobility as regular jump packs I'd say Phobos armour, grav-chutes and two additional backpack thrusters could work nicely.

 

Not sure about the pistols. If you are in range they do a lot of damage with AP-2 D3 auto-hits (is it 1d3 damage or 3 damage? People don't always follow the same syntax) but a range of 6" on a unit that comes from reserves is kinda eh.

 

All in all it kinda sounds like you re-invented Reivers and made them good. :D

[Charlo]

Aye, more specialised Reivers, evolved into the BA doctrine. Sure the flaw is a negative but I'd like to think the events of Devestation of Baal would be a catalyst for the development of these kinds of units.

 

The guns are damage 1, but hit D3 times automatically.

[Panzer]

The guns are damage 1, but hit D3 times automatically.

Oh I see. Kinda confusing the way you wrote it considering the weapon profile is S, AP, D ,special rule. :P

[Guest]

Reading through this, I am picking out a few keywords.

 

Phobos armor

Fly capabilities of some sort

Twin swords (maybe each has a different stat line. Spear/SS option for the sergeant maybe?)

Flame pistol

Elite unit

The special rules seems to be less established right now. Not sure what you guys want.

Am I getting the general idea?

 

 

I think phobos and atmospheric entry might be a no-go as the gravis armor is reinforced for that kind of pressure while phobos is not.

 

The astartes shotgun seems to be awkward to me. Wouldn't a BA rather be in melee, 6 inches seems rather short especially when you can just rush in at that point.

 

Now from a outsider view, phobos always struck me as more RG. Where stealth is more needed. However BA stike me as more normal mk x style as you need armor for melee combat. However if you feel phobos is more BA then I will write it up as such.

 

I do enjoy this thread though as it gives me insight as to what the BA group is thinking.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

There's already Phobos models which deepstrike, it doesn't really matter what the fluff reason is. Reivers can deepstrike, and they were the first Phobos models ever created.

[Guest]

There's already Phobos models which deepstrike, it doesn't really matter what the fluff reason is. Reivers can deepstrike, and they were the first Phobos models ever created.

 

 

I more meant the rule Meteoric Descent: As Inceptors that was suggested.  however you are correct about them getting deepstrike from various means.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

Waiting on my computer to cooperate, but I've got a datasheet concept ready to go. I actually had a similar idea to this not too long ago (frankly, I think most of us did) and I've finally put it to a datasheet.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

There we go. Primaris Interdictors, an Assault Marine equivalent for Primaris. Simple wargear options because Primaris, and they're like flying Reivers in a lot of ways.

Edit: for the record, power level would probably not be that high.

[Ironandforge]

There we go. Primaris Interdictors, an Assault Marine equivalent for Primaris. Simple wargear options because Primaris, and they're like flying Reivers in a lot of ways.

Edit: for the record, power level would probably not be that high.

i like it. i might change terror troop to shock troop and make it so they swing first in any round that they charge. perhaps make it an improved chainsword with AP-1. call the armor Decent pattern and give it 6++ in melee.

[Xenith]

I dint think Phobos was designed to survive a drop from orbit, so would change that rules name - jump packs are also 12" move and give them they FLY keyword and you're good!

[redshadow]

Troops

Intersessor’s with bolt pistols and chainswords and a transport to deliver them

 

Elites

Same as above but with death company rules (5+ feel no pain) and wargear options and optional jump packs

 

Elites

Artificer armoured mx x armour marines with encarmine power weapons and assault bolters with jump packs, 2+ save, an extra wound and death masks

 

Support

Grav tank with twin heavy onslaught cannon and two onslaught cannon sponsons, with optional storm bolter