Weathering: Pigments vs Acrylics vs Oils

[Marshal Vespasian]

Hi fraters,

 

After first rejecting it and wanting a clean force, I have now decided to after all get into weathering.

How do you decide how to do your effects. Like when do you decide to go for chipping and when for stippling on with a sponge.

When do you use rust acrylics (I got the vallejo special effects set) and when do you use rust pigment.

And when do you use oils, like the Abteilung 502 oils for this stuff or enamels?

Its a giant world and I am actually kind of clueless as to where to go now.

 

Should I go down this (new) rabbithole and like it I might even revisit older minis and weather them up accordingly I think. But maybe not because the call of new minis is always so loud.

 

Thanks already

[Magos Takatus]

I've just started using new weathering techniques myself to try to add more interesting details to my models. I've got the Vallejo rust set which I've used as a layer between the undercoat and the basecoat and then used the chipping medium to get some of the basecoat to flake off. I didn't put enough chipping medium on so most of my scraping for the paint chips was ineffective. I recommend practicing with them before using them on an important project.

 

I've also just started using oil washes and I haven't  figured them out yet. The wash just kinda diffused across the model and left visible tide lines that I had to remove with thinner. I also found pin washing was really easy but the shade didn't stay in those recesses when I tried.

 

Lastly, I used weathering powders to add some extra texture to the really rust, dusty and soot covered areas. This was really easy to do but messy as you'd expect. I just put a slight spray of varnish over it to (hopefully) fix it in place.

 

I'll show you what I came up with after my experiments.

 

 

Bear in mind that the weathering shown here is before I sprayed the matt varnish. The varnish layer does dial back the weathering powder a bit to make it a bit more subtle. If you want a really lumpy effect you will need a lot more weathering powder or a lot less varnish.

 

I hope this is helpful.

 

Oh, I forgot to add, be mindful of the colour of your basecoat if you are going to use the Vallejo rust set. My paintjob if fairly light so I made the mistake of blending the rust paints up to a light rust colour in places. This didn't contrast enough in places, like on the supporting arms of the Deth Rolla. In future batches I will keep the rust darker so that it's more obvious. As for why you would use sponges to weather instead I found that more useful for adding weathering where the chipping medium didn't work too well. You could probably pick any one method to weather your models but I'm currently using a bit of each until I'm happy with it.

This video is useful because he uses pretty much every weathering technique I've seen before. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5BQfrDYxh0&t=1s

[PeteySödes]

I use a lot of stuff really, but I use it slowly. I like to finish the model and varnish it then start to ad the weathering.

As for products, I've really enjoyed using AK Interactive's grimes and rust both streaked with a brush and liberally airbrushed on. Either way I attack it with white spirit after to soften it and the results are great. As for chipping I still prefer sponge vs the fluid just because i don't personally go full rusty, just beaten up.

For pigments I used to approach it like Magos above, applying then using a spray to keep it in place. I started using proper pigment fixer though somewhat recently and I highly, highly recommend giving it a go. Less mess and the results are very much more controllable.

I do use a lot of snow and mud in various mixed states too to but thats obviously not going to work for everyone.

[Son of Sacrifice]

I use all three. Acrylics and oils generally for darkening or coloring metal areas (similar to glazing) and pigments are usually the final step.

 

What I like most about weathering is that it's never really done, I can always go back and work more on a particular area.

 

Be very careful with rust, its almost always over done. Remember that moving parts won't rust out unless the vehicle has been abandoned.

 

Pigments work best when you work with several different colours / tones, you need contrast in much the same way as regular painting.

 

Build weathering up in layers, don't rush and have fun!

[Marshal Vespasian]

Thank you guys already!

 

My upcoming project is a Black Templars leviathan dread, so a nice big model to try this.

 

Well I do already have pigment fixer and a bunch of coloured pigments from vallejo on hand and bought some black, umber and sepia oil paints in the crafts store.

I also went and ordered two colours of grey pigment, as my Templars are based on Urban ruins. Also ordered the Vallejo Rust set. Because why not, I want to try this out.

 

I feel like the Vallejo Fresh Rust Paint is super strong, if you arent very careful with it. I only used it as a drybrush for fear of overdoing it. The old rust I use as a of wash normally.

 

Lighter weathering is exactly were I want to go with this. I think oil washes will be used for the metal parts mainly, because I have made the switch to Vallejo Metal Colour and now I want to see how it looks with an nice oilwash. All in all I want to go for used, but not decrepit. In my mind these people venerate their tanks and equipment so they wouldnt let it rust to pieces.

Maybe I will do chipping to the bare metal on legs and feet and stipple on some brown or terracotta chips on the upper body and shoulders, were it would tackle buildings and stuff like that. The feet and legs will also get some grey pigment, as will these base, in order to tie the two of them together.

I hope this works out as I envision it.

[PeteySödes]

Ooh yea, I think the "dustier" light pigments look so good on blacks. Thats going to be really sharp.

[Arkhanist]

For marines I agree you want to go really light with rust, if at all. Given you're doing urban basing, that's a good opportunity to do rusted metal on the base - i-beams, rebar, sheet fragments etc.

 

The advantage of oil washes vs acrylic washes is that you can take most of it off and thin it out, which is perfect for feathering oily and rusty streaks - put on a dot of oil, damp a brush with thinner, and draw it down (and out a bit). It's also nice to use when thinned heavily as a filter, to add patina, and for pinwashing. Acrylic washes are good for quickly darkening down and adding shadow in crevices, e.g. the usual nuln oil wash on metal. Works less well on flat plates, whereas oils can be cleaned up. When you have a lot of different pieces of metal adjacent, you can use different coloured washes to make the areas more distinct, which works nicely for guns and legs.

 

Pigments are great for dust round legs and feet, and build up a little in crevices that don't see much movement, and adding texture to rust, and colour variation to rubble/sand.

 

I use chipping medium when I want to make something look really chipped and/or rusty. So lots on Nurgle tanks and beat up scenery (e.g. necromunda), some on IG tanks, and none on marines - it's easier to do light chipping there with just stipple/foam wear.

 

General rule of thumb - put down a varnish coat when switching type, i.e. going from acrylic to oils, and to separate oils where you don't want the effects to blend - e.g. if you decide you want to add a patina after doing streaks, varnish it first otherwise the fresh oil wash will re-activate the streaks! Pick the varnish that suits what you're going to do, usually gloss so your washes etc will move around more easily.

[Rik Lightstar]

Great advice so far, the big thing I'd add is to take it slow and only do a little of each type a few scratches, some dust, a bit of muck around the feet and lower legs, and some very light sponge stippling on some edges to represent knocks and rubs.

 

Then leave it overnight and come back to it, if it looks like it could handle more then go for it. But be restrained even very well done "distressing" looks too busy and unrealistic when over applied.

 

Rik

[Marshal Vespasian]

Again thank you all for your time and advice in this.

 

Another question tha came to me is: say I want to do chipping down to the bare metal at the feet and the armour directly above the feet, because thats where he'll be stepping into brocken down Walls, barbed wire and what have you. If I want to keep a colour gradient because I am doing basecoats zenithal with an airbrush. How do I go about this?

Basecoat Black, spray metal, spray chipping Fluid, basecoat again, zenithal, paint as normal, apply water, Chip? Will it work through so many layers of paint?

 

Also I guess I will have to get used to varnishing a lot. But looking at All the different weathering stuff out there from ak, mig and vallejo I feel like this is a very fun rabbit hole to dive into. Might even do some heretics or orcs with completely busted up tanks and stuff at some point.

[PeteySödes]

The more layers the less will “pull up” at a time but that’s how I do it if I use fluid. I go “flat red” primer, fluid, base coat, highlight/blend, chip to expose some of the rusty red, sponge or brush on the metallic. That’s sparing though and I’ll still brush/sponge bae metallic straight on too. Like literally everyone has said, go slow and approach it organically.

[OnboardG1]

The Citadel texture paints work well as self fixing weathering pigment. Get a crappy dry brush, remove most of the paint on a paper towel and stipple it onto the legs or treads. It makes a nice, progressive, muck effect. You can see it on my Titan legs here. I also used a light stipple of Rhinox Hide to dirty up the area as well so there’s an extra tone in there.

 

http://i.imgur.com/xmTUd3H.jpg

[Marshal Vespasian]

Oh yeah that does look good.

 

Thank you guys. I'll post my progress on the work in progress forum then.

Guess I'll prime first with a rattle can, than coat the legs with vgc terracotta, spray chipping Fluid over them, airbrush prime Black, zenithal and paint as usual, Chip the legs and Do stippling on the torso just for some opportunity of Variation.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

In my opinion, oil paints are one of the strongest and most versatile tools for weathering because they're not permanent until they've been sealed (you can go back and re-activate or remove the work with turpentine or add more paint on top of existing work without harm) and they can replicate effects like dust and grime that you might normally need an airbrush and other specialized paints for. I used them extensively on a Macharius tank after I did hairspray chipping and added a layer of gloss to seal existing paint. 

 

Before:

 

 

After: 

 

 

 Most of what I learned about using oil paints this way came from a scale model builder named Michael Rinaldi who has put out a number of books on painting and weathering military models and he calls his technique oil paint rendering; you can find a tutorial here. 

 

Aside from suggesting oils as one of the best tools you can add to your hobby, the best advice I can give you is to think about the weathering of your subject and where paint would chip, where dust and grime would accumulate, and don't just slop it on randomly. For my Macharius, I spent a long time looking over the tank from different angles and imagining spots where the crew might touch or step outside of the obvious places. One example of that is the weathering on top of the autocannon sponson, the barrel, the upper area of the glacis plate (flat armor on the front of the tank) and the armor plate in front of the sponson. 

 

 

1) I imagined that the driver and autocannon sponson gunner would climb up the front of the tank because their hatches are right there, instead of taking the ladder up the side of the tank where the rest of the crew would enter through the turret hatch, so I weathered that middle section to reflect heavy foot traffic on it. 

 

2-4) Having a brother who was on a tank crew in the army for six years and hearing some of his stories of how the guys would sit around (or even sleep) on top of the tank during downtime gave me the idea of the driver and sponson gunner sitting on top of the sponson to eat, smoke, chat, etc, and then walking straight off the tank from there if they needed to. Area 2 reflects them scuffing the paint on the way down, 3 is where they stand, sit, or lean on the armor, and 4 is where someone might be sitting or resting a foot on top of the autocannon barrel when the tank commander isn't looking. 

 

Even if no one else ever knows about these kinds of little weathering stories you make up - and this is the first time I ever mentioned mine - it helps add a little bit of character that just looks and feels right to the viewer. 

[Subtle Discord]

Yes! Whenever I weather and chip a model I consider scenarios of how it would happen in order to try and keep it looking authentic. Even just keeping in mind the usual forward direction most vehicles would be moving when they take cosmetic damage and considering the direction of whatever the object is that's doing the damage. Is the vehicle driving through/over it? Is it being churned up and flung into the undercarriage? What leading edges would really take most of the brunt of such wear-and-tear? How have the crew and/or the enemy and/or the environment acted on the model to add to its backstory, even if it's not completely formal.

[Marshal Vespasian]

Alrighty then Thank you for those great tips!

I am seriously impressed by the amount of thought you put into your weathering there.

I will have a look at that tutorial at some point tomorrow.

 

Another question Regarding oils:

I came across the term "applied as a filter". Does that mean that I for example take a green oilwash over a surface to tint everything below it?

 

P.s. Finished the project that Was in the Pipeline before the Dread and got to spraying a bit. Legs are basecoated and I put chipping Fluid on. I am leaving it to dry over night. I went with vgc dark fleshtone as the colour to which I Chip because then I can easily do a lightcatch or highlight with vgc terracotta.

While doing this I realized how incredibly easy it would be to do mud on a vehicle with brown colour lightly shot through an airbrush.

 

I am really excited about trying all this new stuff

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

A filter is just to tint an existing color with another, yes. One popular technique is "dot filtering" where you put a number of small different colored dots of oil paint on an area of a model, usually a few close to the base color and several contrasting colors, and then use a brush damp with turpentine to blend them out over the area. This gives the paint a very subtle color variation that makes it appear more realistic for the scale. 

[Marshal Vespasian]

So the rabbithole with oil paints goes deeper than I first anticipated.

 

I have to look All of that stuff up.

 

For my metal bits I wanted to do Black oil paibt plus a bit of brown. Is there a point in adding a bit of a warm colour to that as the model will be very cold in terms of colour with blue Black and cold white being the Dominant colours?

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Here's a video on dot filters. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCSzYrmaKfQ

[Marshal Vespasian]

That looks super interesting and a good reason to buy an oil paints set with lots of colours in it when its on offer somewhere in the future.

[Bung]

So the rabbithole with oil paints goes deeper than I first anticipated.

 

I have to look All of that stuff up.

 

Oilpaints themself have been around for centuries and have been used in scale modelling for decades as there havent been that muc wheatering products around like now.

Just talk with some old scale modellers who build models 40+ years ago.

 

maybe look up some scale model tank tutorials and the like.

 

When i find time i get you a list of usefull colors and for what too use them.

My personal favorite is Starship Filth from Abteilung 502. Its a great choice for alot of Sci Fi Models.

[Marshal Vespasian]

Thank you that sounds very useful.

 

The scale modelling community is incredibly huge, I have to admit I was not aware. Gotta take a look at different things there and see from where to Start.

[PeteySödes]

Here's a video on dot filters. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCSzYrmaKfQ

 

Thats really interesting. Have you experimented with the more layered armors of Astartes tanks using that? I would the lower ridges may catch too much and be tricky to "clear" naturally. Curious how a darker color (say dark blue/grey ) would interact with it also. 

[Bung]

Here is a list of oil colors and their uses (brand in brackets after color name)

I got that list in a scale model amgazine and it is pretty usefull for most stuff.

 

What i call bleaching is something when a color gets desaturated over time, lose their brightness etc. i dont know if their is an exact word for it.

 

Raw Umber (Windsor & Newton): Washes, dark dirt, mud, zenital effects (shadows) / mix with black for dark wet mud

 

Nickel Titan, Yellow DP (Rembrand 280): zenital effects (highlights), bright dust

 

Lamp Black (Rembrand 702): black washes, deepest shadows,tone down other colors

 

Asphalt (Titan 80):  fat and oil deposits, dirt

 

Titanium White (Rembrand 105): zenital effects (max light), brighten other colors, fading / bleaching of bright colors

 

Permanent Red Light (Rembrand 307): fading / bleaching on rusty and used surfaces, zenital effects on red (highlight) and red - brown surfaces, intensifies warm colors

 

Naples Yellow Light (Winsor 6 Newton): brighten sand colors, bright dust effects for weathering

 

Sepia (Titan 77): alot like Agrax Earthshade

 

Cadmium Yellow Light (Rembrand 208): usefull for warm bleaching and to brighten surfaces

 

Permanent Yellowish Green (Titan 65):  usefull for cold bleaching and to brighten surfaces

 

Olive Green (Abteilung 502): zenital effects on dark greens, usefull for cold and warm fading / bleaching

 

Ultramarine Light: (Rembrand 505) usefull for cold fading, dirt (Oil / Motors), zenital effects (shadows)

 

Transparent Oxide Brown (Titan 75): fading / bleaching on rusted and used surfaces

 

Titan Brown (Titan 76) dirt and wet mud effects, mix with Naples Yellow for earth, mud and dust tones

 

Raw Sienna (Rembrand 234): dirt and dried mud, mix with Naples Yellow for earth, mud and dust tones

 

Cinnabar Green Deep (Rembrand 627) cold and warm fading / bleaching and to brighten surfaces

 

Cold Grey (Titan 85) usefull for fading bleaching

 

 

There is even an Abteilung 502 Book about using oil colors that could help you too.

[sarabando]

any one know a weathering powder that matches martian ironcrust?

[Marshal Vespasian]

Thank you for that comprehensive list. 

What do you use the starship filth for?

 

In other news I have started work on my dreadnoughts legs.

As I proceed I will propably first do the rest of the body and glue its torso on, but here you can see the legs:

 

 

Sadly my phones camera is not fantastic, but rather limited.

What I have done so far:

Zenithal and then basecoat with 5:5:5 flow improver : vallejo black ink : fw daler rowney paynes grey,

I had to do try the basecoat several times, because I am doing it for the first time and the inks were annihilating the preashading like nothing.

Then I edgehiglighted, airbrushed the kneepads and glued them in.

For the armour chipping I tried to go with the chipping fluid, but either I was unlucky, because my airbrush was stuttering a lot when I applied the chipping medium or because of multiple layers of paint, but when I tried to activate it with water and use a large brush to chip, I always ripped huge chunks of paint off, after lightening a large area of black to greyish.

Well so I switched to sponging on my chipping colour and highlighted some edges, drybrushed/filled some chips with gunmetal and sponged on some gunmetal. 

All of this has been focussed on the lower third of the lower leg and I had to go kind of heavy because of the problems I had with the chipping, to cover that up. I will propably weather so upper parts of the legas as well, but only when I have the torso added to the legs, so I can see how it all looks together.

 

Thanks for looking, eagerly awaiting C&C.

 

Edit:

see also this thread, as not to derail the questions forum which is for questions I guess ;) http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356096-trying-to-improve-my-painting/