Custodes and Assassins

[Prot]

Hey guys, just a quick question.

 

I’m trying to make more competitive Custodes lists that are pure in nature and I feel like I have to squeeze in the assassin detachment that just came out. My problem is the whooping 3cp it costs.

 

How can I make this work in pure Custodes? Do you think it’s worth it? Am I over valuing the idea of having a wildcard assassin in a tournament setting?

[Stoic Raptor]

Do you need an entire detachment?  If you only need one Assassin, you're better of just setting aside the reinforcement points and paying the 1 CP for the Stratagem to bring him in.

[Prot]

Do you need an entire detachment?  If you only need one Assassin, you're better of just setting aside the reinforcement points and paying the 1 CP for the Stratagem to bring him in.

Sorry that’s what I meant.

 

I don’t own the white dwarf with the rules, so it was my understanding that Strat costs 3CP. I am almost sure it’s not 1 since the FAQ. Which leads ,e to the issue of CP cost.

[Stoic Raptor]

I'm not sure which FAQ any correction to a White Dwarf article would even be in - the strat in WD says 1 CP if you're playing Matched Play or 3 CP otherwise.

If it's any more costly than 1 CP, you might as well just put it in an auxiliary support detachment.

I should hope they haven't made it even harder to field assassins than it already was when they killed soup last year.

[CaptainMarsh]

It is 2 CP. It was in BIG FAQ 2. It was 1 CP in Matched Play and 3 CP in Open Play before. Now it is 2 either way.

[ValourousHeart]

Prot, you should really get the white dwarf... otherwise you are going to get a lot more mixed up than you already have.

You also need to grab the BIG FAQ and check out page 11.

 

According to GW there are 3 ways to include assassins in your army... but given the caveats on the Vanguard detachment IMO it is best to view them as 5 ways.

All ways require that your Warlord has the Imperial Keyword, and does not have the Fallen keyword.

 

1. Your army CANNOT have any assassins. During deployment, spend 2 CP and add 1 assassin of your choice.  In Match Play you must have set aside points to do this.
2. The second way to include an assassin is to take an Auxiliary Support detachment.  That detachment has a command benefit of -1 CP and also takes a detachment.  So if you are playing in a setting where you are limited in the number of detachments you can take use the one above instead.
3. The third way is to take a Vanguard detachment.  Pick any 3-6 assassins you want.  No HQ required.  Command benefit is changed to NONE.
4. The fourth way is to take a Vanguard detachment and also take 1 of each of the 4 assassins.  No HQ required.  Normal command benefit.
5. The fifth way is to take a Vanguard detachment.  Pick any 3-6 assassins you want.  Include an HQ.  Normal command benefit.

[Stoic Raptor]

Thanks for pointing out where it was in the FAQ.  So basically, as long as you have a Detachment available, you're better off putting it in an Auxiliary Support detachment?

Are there even any eligible HQ units if you wanted to go with Option 5 there?

[duz_]

Valorous has nicely summed up the different ways of doing it

 

Having 1 for 2cp is nice and you can mic and match each game

 

Personalty I also like the vanguard option where you can mix and match as much as you want in the detachment and not need an HQ. Only miss is the 1 cp you may have got from that detachment otherwise

 

Down side of the latter option is of you were aiming for scoring mono custodes points for itc you'll be classed as imperial soup :ermm: if you just use the pie game strat then it won't impact you

[ValourousHeart]

Thanks for pointing out where it was in the FAQ.  So basically, as long as you have a Detachment available, you're better off putting it in an Auxiliary Support detachment?

Are there even any eligible HQ units if you wanted to go with Option 5 there?

 

I'm not sure if it is that cut and dry. 

It is 2CP, no detachment and a free choice during deployment, or 1CP, 1 detachment, and a fixed choice.

Realizing that your opponent doesn't have a librarian might make you rethink bringing a Culexus.

The first option lets you change your mind, the second one doesn't.

 

Some tournaments might want you to not change your list during the event... seems like a fair requirement since they don't let other armies change their lists.

I haven't been to a tournament in years... do you have to disclose that you are using the extra warlord traits and extra relics, and which traits and relics when you submit your list, or can you change which traits and relics or even if you take them before each round?

If you are allowed to, then a tournament seems like the place that 2CP option would make the most sense, because the chance to change your list based on your opponent's deployment seems really powerful.

 

As for the HQ, you can always include any models you want in any detachment you want.

This only becomes an issue with some army wide special rules that require all of the models in a detachment to have the same specific keyword.

Like Dark Angels only get Grim Resolve if all the models in the detachment have the Dark Angels keyword.

 

I'd say that you could use just about any single HQ you would want, but an Inquisitor would probably be my first choice.

[swordofmandulis]

Official warhammer world tournaments you do not have to put additional relics warlord traits etc that are generated via stratagems on your roster, the 'Operative requisition sanctioned' strat will also work this way, for me it's by far the best way to utilise an assassin even though its now 2CP, it was too cheap before. Having the versatility is huge.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

2 cp is a lot for a pure list but if you’re running Trajann it can help you recoup some of the investment when you later burn some more sweet sweet cp .

[duz_]

Fixed relics, traits, powers and poor game strats are a case by case basis. You need to check with the TO, but a good point to mention.

[Prot]

 

Prot, you should really get the white dwarf... otherwise you are going to get a lot more mixed up than you already have.

You also need to grab the BIG FAQ and check out page 11.

 

 

 

Valourus, Firslty... I own all the rules I can with any army I play. I really don't trust army applications to fill in the blanks. The problem here is the White Dwarf containing the rules for Assassins was sold out online in Canada the day I went to order it. The local stores were all sold out as well. I put in an email with GW Canada to be notified when it would be available. Never got it. Now the event I would need it for is 2 weeks away.

 

I own the Big FAQ but since I don't own the original rules, I'm asking for assistance since GW has made it impossible for me to get my hands on them. It's really disappointing and I thought they would have published them by now online.

 

Secondly, what I'm really asking here is not for an exact rules rundown, but how or if Custodes players are able to squeeze in Assassins. 2 CP in a pure Custodes list is extremely penal to a codex that relies heavily on Strats and has no cheap troops.

 

That being said the army can be at the mercy of smite spam or character driven aura war.... all handy moments for Assassins. 

 

 

2 cp is a lot for a pure list but if you’re running Trajann it can help you recoup some of the investment when you later burn some more sweet sweet cp .

 

I agree. Typically I use Trajann's refund when I summon in through the banner. Then I usually have nothing left. lol

[noigrim]

I tried custodes and assassins and the lather didn't do :cuss

[Stoic Raptor]

Before they killed soup, I was planning on making a detachment with Greyfax, 3 squads of Null-Maidens and a Culexus.  It would have been a nice answer to the Custodes' main weakness.

I suppose it can still be done, but the price you pay may not be worth it.

[ValourousHeart]

 

 

Prot, you should really get the white dwarf... otherwise you are going to get a lot more mixed up than you already have.

You also need to grab the BIG FAQ and check out page 11.

 

Valourus, Firslty... I own all the rules I can with any army I play. I really don't trust army applications to fill in the blanks. The problem here is the White Dwarf containing the rules for Assassins was sold out online in Canada the day I went to order it. The local stores were all sold out as well. I put in an email with GW Canada to be notified when it would be available. Never got it. Now the event I would need it for is 2 weeks away.

 

I own the Big FAQ but since I don't own the original rules, I'm asking for assistance since GW has made it impossible for me to get my hands on them. It's really disappointing and I thought they would have published them by now online.

 

Secondly, what I'm really asking here is not for an exact rules rundown, but how or if Custodes players are able to squeeze in Assassins. 2 CP in a pure Custodes list is extremely penal to a codex that relies heavily on Strats and has no cheap troops.

 

That being said the army can be at the mercy of smite spam or character driven aura war.... all handy moments for Assassins. 

 

 

2 cp is a lot for a pure list but if you’re running Trajann it can help you recoup some of the investment when you later burn some more sweet sweet cp .

 

I agree. Typically I use Trajann's refund when I summon in through the banner. Then I usually have nothing left. lol

 

What I said wasn't meant to come across as offensive.

I simply stated that you really needed to get the rules because you asked about 1 rule (the first rule for the assassins) and you understanding of it was faulty.

 

Since that was just the very first rule, and you had already admitted that you didn't have the rules, which do you think would have been more likely?

1. That you knew all of the other rules perfectly.
2. Or that you might be mistaken about some of the other rules or strats as well.

It sucks that you missed out on that white dwarf.

Did anyone from the stores in your area get a copy that they could let you take a look at?

 

As for the effectiveness of assassins in mono-builds, that really depends on the codex.

My Imperial Knight list could fit one in easily, but how much help would it really be?

My Ravenwing list could fit one in, but a Land Speeder with HB / AC is 82 points and is considerably better than an assassin against most targets. 

 

I have only played one or 2 games with my Sisters of Battle using the beta codex, I'm waiting for the new codex to jump back into the list.

But from previous editions assassins were a good complement for sisters.

I'm also putting together a force based on Shadowspear, and thematically an assassin would fit really well in that type army.

 

A pure Custodes list seems like it already has the character killer unit with the shield captain on jetbike.

They also seem to do well vs infantry, at least that was the impression I got from the videos on youtube.

Where they seem to need the help is dealing with high toughness units... and assassins are not designed to help with that.

 

So from that perspective without even considering cost, I would probably avoid the assassin and take some heavy weapons from IG.

[Kenzaburo]

Before they killed soup, I was planning on making a detachment with Greyfax, 3 squads of Null-Maidens and a Culexus.  It would have been a nice answer to the Custodes' main weakness.

I suppose it can still be done, but the price you pay may not be worth it.

Wait a second, what am I missing here? Why wouldn't you be allowed to bring said detachment? Is this just a rule for some tournaments? Because I sure as hell have Greyfax and some Sisters ready for painting on my desk. Might just be, that I know next to nothing about tournament rules whatsovever. :)

[Slasher956]

Match play update, the battle brothers rule means that Imperuim, chaos & Aeldari cant be used for the matching keyword with which to form a detachment.

 

EDIT - It was announced in BIG FAQ 2 (2018) as a finalised rule... that FAQ has now been removed.

   

 

EDIT2 - Ah its printed in CA 2018 pg 47 (the one with Sisters of Battle)

[sairence]

Regarding the question of how much character killing Assassins really do...honestly I found them more useful for their disruptive abilities than anything else.

 

The Eversor will munch through screens...but it will force your opponent to put screens up in the first place or that guy will happily tie up his backline vehicles and throw meltabombs at them until they die.

 

My Culexus is happiest when he never has get into CC with an opponent and can just stay at 18" from a psyker, keep firing off his shots and make life more difficult for them.

 

The Vindicare rarely kills characters for me, but he always influences positioning. I've had a few games now where opponents more or less conceeded a whole flank to me because he wouldn't move his buff characters into LoS.

 

And the Calidus..if she kills a support character, great. But as long as my opponent has to spend 2-3 CPs extra first turn she's done her job.

[shanewatts]

I have found the 2CP assassin critical to most of my games with Custodes.

 

If you are able to get to enemy characters with them, they will help refund a little (or all) of their cost, but the amount of disruption they cause for your opponent is so clutch regardless of the CP.

[Prot]

I have found the 2CP assassin critical to most of my games with Custodes.

 

If you are able to get to enemy characters with them, they will help refund a little (or all) of their cost, but the amount of disruption they cause for your opponent is so clutch regardless of the CP.

 

I've just been on the receiving end of it to know how brutal it is.

 

I had posted an actual experience I had vs GSC where they used the relic rifle (I know you saw this Shane, but for other people to perhaps see how devastating it can be....) I lost a Sorcerer, and I think the total was 24 wounds (Mortal wounds included) to start the game with one shot from a GSC using perfect ambush and shooting before I moved in T1. It was devastating.

 

I've lost Ahriman in T1. I've lost other, even if less, critical units. 

 

The Culexus is so good in those smite based games. But very much less so in something like... a Tau match up.

 

It's far easier for me to get in the wildcard Assassin for 2 CP with something like AdMech, but when starting with 8 CP it's just so much harder to take.

 

 

For clarity, taking this strategem doesn't prevent you from being a 'pure' Custodes army as far as ITC is concerned, does it?

[shanewatts]

Using the 2CP stratagem doesn't prevent you from being pure faction for ITC. It is based strictly on the detachments in your list all being the same faction.

 

So having 85 reinforcement points is what is on your list, and doesn't count as any faction in particular.

 

 

 

As far as what assassin to take in a Tau match-up, that is all dependant on the mission, terrain, and their list. Assuming the terrain is sufficient, I tend to take a culexus who sits out of LoS in their backfield (preferably on an objective,) racking up points with behind enemy lines etc. But there is certainly an argument for the other 3 as well.

[Prot]

I have to revisit this topic.

 

Just coming off a tournament I saw some people starting with some Assassins on the table. Because this keeps going back and forth, I called a judge over during one of my games vs Knights using the Assassin strategem. He tried to start with the Vindicare on the table. The judge said they cannot start the game on the table.

 

So this is true?

 

Secondly, if it is, in T2 the Vindicare is set up. Has he moved? (IE: hits on 3's that turn?)

[BrotherAetherick]

They can start on the table. Their shared rule "Independent operative" just states that they CAN start in reserves - meaning they can deepstrike and come in T2. They can just be deployed normally.

 

Point 2. Yes, he counts as moved and suffers the -1 if using the exitus rifle (not the pistol). There is a general rule in the BRB FAQ that states anything that is set up counts as being moved their maximum move for the purposes of shooting heavy weapons.

He will also not benefit from faultless aim that turn.

[duz_]

It's just an additional reserve rule nothing says they can't start on the table?

 

And correct on the second point but 3+ isn't too bad