Hell Blade viability?

[Ceranidian]

So I’m a big fan of fliers aesthetically, and recently discovered the awesome Hell Blade model from FW. I’d love to add one or two to my groning army but I’d first like to hear some opinions regarding its viability. I can see two good roles for it that would fit well into my local meta:

1. Hunting down multi-would backfield holders (mortar teams, intercessors)

2. Killing Eldar skimmers (venoms, raiders, fliers) with the bonus vs fly and ability to dart in within 12” to negate Alaitoc

 

And of course all the normal flyer benefits with move blocking, high mobility etc.

 

Seems like a decent buy for 130pts. I’m not looking for a tournament winning list but like to play at least semi-competetively and would rather not end up with an expensive chunk of decorative resin. Does anybody have any opinions about or experience using the Hell Blade?

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I believe Don Hooson uses 3 of these in a Tournament list in much the way you describe above. He used them in Death Guard and now in his Purge. In The Purge, they can fish for Mortal Wounds to set off the Legion Trait or make vehicles easier prey for his Lord Discortdant's abilities.

 

EDIT: Sorry for double post. Phone is freaking out.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I believe Don Hooson uses 3 of these in a Tournament list in much the way you describe above. He used them in Death Guard and now in his Purge. In The Purge, they can fish for Mortal Wounds to set off the Legion Trait or make vehicles easier prey for his Lord Discortdant's abilities.

 

He has since switched to Drakes for greater synergy, but the Blades were solid performers....

 

https://donhooson.wordpress.com/

[MegaVolt87]

I think you forgot to mention he is running butcher cannon spam, which are very good with dredeo and dual butcher contemptors are very pts efficient. The heldrakes are not the ones carrying the list. I imagine the hell blades were not either. The real discussion is if we see butchers/FW dreads get a pts increase if this guy hits top tables at widely covered tourny's with that list. 

[Ceranidian]

Interesting stuff! I like the idea of the fliers as Purge trait enablers. Though as MegaVolt mentioned I think that becomes way more effective when pretty much all of your damage comes from units that make use of the trait. Still though it shows that they are at least useable.

 

I can't quite see how the Heldrakes have any chance of competing though. Obviously Don Hooson knows way more than me, but to me it just feels like you're trading superiour mobility and damage for the ability to block movement slightly better and close combat ability that is mediocre at best (tying up badly screened tanks in the backline?And they cost 37 points more with the flamer. And have a degrading statline. Maybe if you are just using them for the trait proc the auto hits are valuable, but I'd think the mortal wounds from the Hell Blades were a safer bet still. Do you know his rationale for switching to the drakes? 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I think you forgot to mention he is running butcher cannon spam, which are very good with dredeo and dual butcher contemptors are very pts efficient. The heldrakes are not the ones carrying the list. I imagine the hell blades were not either. The real discussion is if we see butchers/FW dreads get a pts increase if this guy hits top tables at widely covered tourny's with that list. 

You're correct on the usage of the flyers in those lists, but I didn't forget. I included the link to his blog so that the OP could see the entire context. The Hell Blades are definitely synergy pieces. They are NOT the meat of the list, nor were the Drakes, but the OP isn't expecting them to do the heavy lifting either. They are there to support and enable other things that can capitalize.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Interesting stuff! I like the idea of the fliers as Purge trait enablers. Though as MegaVolt mentioned I think that becomes way more effective when pretty much all of your damage comes from units that make use of the trait. Still though it shows that they are at least useable.

 

I can't quite see how the Heldrakes have any chance of competing though. Obviously Don Hooson knows way more than me, but to me it just feels like you're trading superiour mobility and damage for the ability to block movement slightly better and close combat ability that is mediocre at best (tying up badly screened tanks in the backline?And they cost 37 points more with the flamer. And have a degrading statline. Maybe if you are just using them for the trait proc the auto hits are valuable, but I'd think the mortal wounds from the Hell Blades were a safer bet still. Do you know his rationale for switching to the drakes? 

No. I don't know why he switched. Maybe for the interaction with the Lord Discordant in addition to the movement blockage that got taken away from the Hell Blades in the FAQ? He could heal them with Spirit Thief if needed and the LD's give them hit bonuses, but not sure if that's enough. My comment about greater synergy was a guess in case that wasn't clear.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I think you forgot to mention he is running butcher cannon spam, which are very good with dredeo and dual butcher contemptors are very pts efficient. The heldrakes are not the ones carrying the list. I imagine the hell blades were not either. The real discussion is if we see butchers/FW dreads get a pts increase if this guy hits top tables at widely covered tourny's with that list. 

FW dreads are actually a bit OP at their new costs, in my opinion. The Contemptor/Deredeo/Leviathan need to be looked at even if they don't hit the top tables.

 

Given how frequently I see them turn up, I personally think the latter two should be moved over to plastic and actually integrated with the Codexes, along with weapon options for all 3 so that internal balance can be better.

[MegaVolt87]

The dreads are the few good things we got at reasonable points though and as units that don't stretch the wallet too much because they are on sale often enough. CSM already gets the middle finger enough from GW. I would rather not see a further race to the bottom to join the Grey Knights. Actually, just nerf them, then we will just switch to the more OP Knights instead with Red corsairs CP batteries. 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

 

 

Interesting stuff! I like the idea of the fliers as Purge trait enablers. Though as MegaVolt mentioned I think that becomes way more effective when pretty much all of your damage comes from units that make use of the trait. Still though it shows that they are at least useable.

 

I can't quite see how the Heldrakes have any chance of competing though. Obviously Don Hooson knows way more than me, but to me it just feels like you're trading superiour mobility and damage for the ability to block movement slightly better and close combat ability that is mediocre at best (tying up badly screened tanks in the backline?And they cost 37 points more with the flamer. And have a degrading statline. Maybe if you are just using them for the trait proc the auto hits are valuable, but I'd think the mortal wounds from the Hell Blades were a safer bet still. Do you know his rationale for switching to the drakes?

No. I don't know why he switched. Maybe for the interaction with the Lord Discordant in addition to the movement blockage that got taken away from the Hell Blades in the FAQ? He could heal them with Spirit Thief if needed and the LD's give them hit bonuses, but not sure if that's enough. My comment about greater synergy was a guess in case that wasn't clear.

Spirit thief doesn’t work on units that can fly? Aura of Discord does work though.

[Mekhitar]

Heldrakes are fantastic synergy & harass units that can really tax your opponent’s positioning. They are also in your face t1, which means any anti tank fire that might otherwise have gone after the heavy hitting dreads might find itself retasked to deal with the drakes by necessity.

 

I’ve never run hell blades - I can see where they would have use as character snipers, and they are just as maneuverable as eldar planes, but hitting on 4s with not a lot of weapons doesn’t make me super excited about them. They also can’t tag things.

 

The models look very cool, though.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

Interesting stuff! I like the idea of the fliers as Purge trait enablers. Though as MegaVolt mentioned I think that becomes way more effective when pretty much all of your damage comes from units that make use of the trait. Still though it shows that they are at least useable.

 

I can't quite see how the Heldrakes have any chance of competing though. Obviously Don Hooson knows way more than me, but to me it just feels like you're trading superiour mobility and damage for the ability to block movement slightly better and close combat ability that is mediocre at best (tying up badly screened tanks in the backline?And they cost 37 points more with the flamer. And have a degrading statline. Maybe if you are just using them for the trait proc the auto hits are valuable, but I'd think the mortal wounds from the Hell Blades were a safer bet still. Do you know his rationale for switching to the drakes?

No. I don't know why he switched. Maybe for the interaction with the Lord Discordant in addition to the movement blockage that got taken away from the Hell Blades in the FAQ? He could heal them with Spirit Thief if needed and the LD's give them hit bonuses, but not sure if that's enough. My comment about greater synergy was a guess in case that wasn't clear.

Spirit thief doesn’t work on units that can fly? Aura of Discord does work though.

 

Thanks. Good catch.

[undivided_apostle]

There are better options than the hellblade. That being said run what you like. I would avoid investing too much in it or going all in and run three of them. Its just not good enough..

 

 

If your semi competitive I think it's fine but I would use it to replace another less than optimal choice like Raptors.

 

I generally limit myself to 200-300 points of non essential lousy units that I like. If you go higher it's too much to overcome.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I think I figured out why Drakes were used in the list. They can charge early, tie up enemies, and will generally survive when the Dreads fire into combat using "All Life is Worthless." This is on top of the fact that they benefit from Aura of Discord. They can also flame into combat using the same stratagem and (ironically) not risk hitting friendlies with the Baleflamer because of the auto-hits.

[Ceranidian]

Yeah, I guess if you view the Heldrakes as just a big blocking/tagging disruption unit (albeit an expensive one) they make some sense. Especially if you have the ridiculous killing power of all those Dreads and DiscoLords Don Hooson runs to compensate for their lack of offensive output. 

 

I wonder if it would be possible to work them into a more "normal" CSM list. The models are great (and plastic!), but unless the rest of your list consists of super efficient offense it feels like the army would lack any real punch. 

[undivided_apostle]

I have tried running a heldrake and have had mixed results. However I haven't ran it with a lord discordant yet +1 to hit is a big deal.

 

One my friends ran a heldrake with his thousand sons to tie up a unit to protect magnus and it kind of worked.

 

The purge list seems designed to put a lot of pressure on an opponent and he probably isn't concerned if the butcher cannons misfires and mess up the drake.