Questions about 30k models

[Centauri]

Hello,

 

I am looking to build my first 30k army. I am undecided on a legion at this time so these questions are more of a catch all.

 

First my understanding is mk3-5 armor is 'standard' for most peoples list, but I see alot of ravenguard models w/ mk6 helmets ect, is that something unique to them? 

 

Second on the same token how many of you use say the standard mk4 marines and maybe transfers or should pads for the legion vs using the legion specific helmets like the WE ones with the horn things? Is it poor form to mix mk4 bodies with the mk2 WE helmets for example?

 

Also when it comes to named character that dont have a model do you just build a custom one? Or is there perhaps a list of character models that may be out of print but still in the game? I ask because on battlescribe I found a plethora of characters i couldnt find models for.

 

Lastly when it comes to vehicles like a rhino does it matter which you use comparing the GW one with the square doors and the FW one with round?

Do they have different stat lines? or is it like power armor where you should use the period appropriate choice

 

If there are other examples of this i'd like to hear your opinions as well.

 

Thanks!

[Slips]

Hello,

 

I am looking to build my first 30k army. I am undecided on a legion at this time so these questions are more of a catch all.

 

First my understanding is mk3-5 armor is 'standard' for most peoples list, but I see alot of ravenguard models w/ mk6 helmets ect, is that something unique to them? 

 

Second on the same token how many of you use say the standard mk4 marines and maybe transfers or should pads for the legion vs using the legion specific helmets like the WE ones with the horn things? Is it poor form to mix mk4 bodies with the mk2 WE helmets for example?

 

Also when it comes to named character that dont have a model do you just build a custom one? Or is there perhaps a list of character models that may be out of print but still in the game? I ask because on battlescribe I found a plethora of characters i couldnt find models for.

 

Lastly when it comes to vehicles like a rhino does it matter which you use comparing the GW one with the square doors and the FW one with round?

Do they have different stat lines? or is it like power armor where you should use the period appropriate choice

 

If there are other examples of this i'd like to hear your opinions as well.

 

Thanks!

• As long as your army doesn't look anachronistic to the setting of 30k (Marines in great crusade armies in Mk VII, Mk VIII in general, etc.), then you're pretty much good/free to do whatever you think looks aesthetically pleasing. Feel free to take  look at the various painting/modelling 30k Blogs we have here and in the WIP Section to use as inspiration.
  • Raven Guard armies are shown in Mk VI the most due to the pattern being Mk VI Corvus and the suit the most tied to the legion in general. But, the Alpha Legion had their own variant and the Iron Warriors and Salamanders field tested the prototypes of the suits before the Raven Guard got their hands on them. Finally, the Imperial Fists recovered a large store of the suits from Mars and gave the majority of those to the Raven Guard but would realistically have a supply for their own use. Also, battle field scavenging.
• In General, no.
• The Vast Majority of Named Characters for 30k will never get an official model; feel free to make your own. Even those with official models are fair game for making your own with kitbashes, etc.
• No. Use whatever you want. Just be mindful of the 40k Specific Iconography some of the Plastic GW Kits would have.

[Grotsmasha]

Hey Centauri, welcome to the B&C :tu:

 

mkIII and mkIV form the basics of most armies due to their availability in plastic. From a fluff point of view, the Raven Guard were the test/develop Legion for the mkVI armour, and as such it is most prevelent in their Legion. This does not preclude other Legions having suits of mkVI of armour.  mkVII was in use by the Imperial Fists, White Scars and Blood Angels at the Siege of Terra.

 

Although the Legion kits are designed with a certain aesthetic, they are completely usable with any mk armour, and no one will be uppity at you for doing so.

 

There are more FW named characters than models for them, and as long as a model is WYSIWYG, then a model of your own design is completely acceptable, even if FW does have a model, building your version is still completely acceptable.

 

As to which version of vehicles to use, there were both in prevelent use throughout the Heresy, and are merely the differences of manufacturing Forge Worlds.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Closet Skeleton]

The Horus Heresy plastic kits are the cheapest way to get a non-40k looking army but aren't actually a fluffy representation of the average mid-heresy marine. Its Mark V that is the 'heresy' suit and the 'standard' Mark VII was the main armour (or at least far more represented than the worn out and hard to repair Mark IV) at the Siege of Terror and was also used by the traitor forces who seized the production facilities on Mars.

 

Mark IV and III should be common at the start of the Heresy when everyone is basically a great crusade army but the early Black books show guys in hodge podge suits even then so mixing kits is probably the fluffiest.

[battle captain corpus]

Personally I would steer utterly clear of anything that’s not mk3-6 to begin with.

Mk7, whilst in production, was rare as hens teeth on a pig farm even for loyalists at the end of the Heresy present on Terra.

The 30k community has a very strong mk3-5 vibe and mk7 is generally seen as post Heresy. Yes, I know it was in production but it still feels “wrong” for many. Especially if you’re collecting traitors/renegades.

I would stick with the mk3-5 suits defiantly. Mixing the kits up and incorporating small elements of mk6 is lovely and part of the sheer joy of kitbashing and collecting Heresy era minis.

 

BCC

[Gederas]

Slips summed it up perfectly, but there's only one thing I'd like to add:

 

The World Eater helmets with the proto-Khorne Bunny Ears are VETERAN helmets. So unless the squad is a Veteran squad, I'd stick to only using those on Sergeants.

[carlisimo]

Slips covered the Mk VI question pretty comprehensively, but Book 8 shows a White Scar in “newly issued Mk VI power armor.” The time period is unspecified. It could be after their return to Terra, which would be odd for a book focused on early-Heresy events – that would still limit widespread use of Mk VI to the Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, and the defenders of Terra. Or it could mean Mk VI was more common than previously stated. Personally, I’m fine with anyone using it. It’s Mk VII that’s controversial (even if the loyalists at Terra used it, hardly anyone’s playing Siege of Terra battles).

 

Some legion-specific helmets are clearly standard Mk III/IV/etc. helmets with little decorations on them. Those are likely to look awkward on the wrong armor types, though from a technical compatibility point of view you’re fine mixing Mks II, III, and V, or IV, V, and VI. World Eater and White Scars helmets (and some others) are nonstandard enough that there’s no problem putting them on any type of armor.

 

Shoulder pads can be mixed more freely, but stylistically I think the same guideline applies: mix between II, III, and maybe V, and IV, V, VI. Mk III pads are surprisingly bulky.

 

Characters… yeah, make your own. FW says they’re trying to move away from rules without models, but I’d be surprised if they went back and sculpted every character. I’d be even more surprised if they sculpted every character and sold them online, as opposed to limiting them to Warhammer World or event exclusives. They’ve done that with a number of special characters and it’s the dumbest thing in the world for a company with their reach.

 

Rhinos and variants – doesn’t matter. Square doors: Mars-pattern. Round doors: Deimos-pattern. Supposedly the latter was a little better, but not in game terms. Likewise, you can use a 40k Land Raider as a Land Raider Phobos instead of the FW Land Raider Mk IIb, which is the same kit with enclosed sponsons and a slightly different front-top hull. I personally like the way the FW variants look, but the GW styles were supposedly around as well. If you use GW Land Speeders or Bikes, you’d be expected to swap out the Mk VII crew/riders by a substantial portion of the player base.

 

Terminators are the only units where different styles actually perform differently on the table.

 

I can’t help but wonder why Deimos is building so much stuff. It’s 9 miles long… you could ride a bicycle off a ramp and fly off into space.

[SkimaskMohawk]

You can use a wide variety of armour marks and they'll all blend in with a unifying paint scheme. Mk 7 is no exception, but will benefit more from being partially used to make it more of a mk 5 variant. The Main thing that gives a 40k aesthetic is the over blinging of some kits imo, but that's also dependant on legion.

[Centauri]

Thanks for all of the replys. Im having a really tough time picking a legion as there are so many that i like and all of the cool armor and paint schemes arent helping my decisions

[Vykes]

Centauri my dude, it's a pain most of us go through, too.  Just gotta figure out how to start out with 1 and then get it all going (and, better yet, if it has notable loyalist and traitor elements: Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, World Eaters, Iron Warriors, White Scars, whatever Alpha Legion decides they want to be that week.  Honestly, I use upgrade heads from a lot of legions in my Sons of Horus and it looks spot on thanks to the old Visions of Heresy book)  

 

So the question becomes, what do you got in mind?  Did you want to use a lot of mk. VI-VII and go for the siege?  Or the more regimented mk. II-IV of the early war?  Or mid heresy rumble of 'it's all up for grabs'?  This might not be Bolt Action or one of the WW2 games with set eras, but it can be awesome to theme stuff around different periods and get stuff really unique even if they're the same sort of a force.  

 

So whatcha lookin' at?  The group here can sure help you bounce some ideas and aesthetic considerations around pretty good.  They're a good lot. 

[Centauri]

Centauri my dude, it's a pain most of us go through, too.  Just gotta figure out how to start out with 1 and then get it all going (and, better yet, if it has notable loyalist and traitor elements: Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, World Eaters, Iron Warriors, White Scars, whatever Alpha Legion decides they want to be that week.  Honestly, I use upgrade heads from a lot of legions in my Sons of Horus and it looks spot on thanks to the old Visions of Heresy book)  

 

So the question becomes, what do you got in mind?  Did you want to use a lot of mk. VI-VII and go for the siege?  Or the more regimented mk. II-IV of the early war?  Or mid heresy rumble of 'it's all up for grabs'?  This might not be Bolt Action or one of the WW2 games with set eras, but it can be awesome to theme stuff around different periods and get stuff really unique even if they're the same sort of a force.  

 

So whatcha lookin' at?  The group here can sure help you bounce some ideas and aesthetic considerations around pretty good.  They're a good lot. 

Well if im being honest im a big WH30 OR 40k newbie. But besides the dark eldar what really compelled me to the series was the primarchs which is why im looking into 30k. So I dont know a whole lot about the story of the horus heresy besides a general time line and the drop site massacre. What I have read up on is the primarchs stories and their background, and really I like them all and by proxy the legions themselves.

 

From a power armor perspective I think I like MKIV and MKV the most. I asked about things like the helmets is whichever legion I decide upon I want to make them as legion-y as possible, so any extra unique bits I can find I want to add. 

 

I think something that would help me decide on a legion would be knowing which rite/s of war are 'meta' so I can have an idea how the table top version plays. Like doing research on the Salamanders I see alot of people talking about covenant of fire. Do other legions have a RoW that is obviously powerful thats not universal?

[Slips]

While having an army that can perform is definitely not a bad thing, don't get too hung up on being 'meta' mainly because the 30k Community is rather...ehh..fragmentary...and meta, really, depends on what your local group has access to and/or plays.

 

As such, what it meta for you might not be for me.

 

So, that said, I would definitely take the time to poke around in the Tactica Section and, more specifically, the various Legion Tactica threads and ask some questions there. That way, those who are truly knowledgeable about optimizing a given legion army would be able to give more focused responses as well as giving you the opportunity to ask much more focused questions in turn.

 

Also, a surprising very helpful resource we have access to is the 1d4chan 30k Legion Tactica thread that give you a more general overview of what you have available to you. Definitely give it a read.

[MegaVolt87]

Since rhino's are mentioned- assembly with or without headlights on the FW ones? I like the look without personally for the FW ones. 

[Eternal Despair]

Personal preference really, I've never seen someone be called out for a lack of headlights. Personally I find that they are a real pain to paint and have them look like an actual headlight while still looking nice so I leave them off if possible.

[Johanhgg]

I’m a newbie in 30k and had trouble choosing legion. I solved it by making a shattered legion force :)

[Mogsam]

I didn't even notice that I hadn't put the headlights on. No one else has either.

 

As the previous posters said, don't worry about the best set up for your army. Pick what you want and then work out how to make it work. There's a fair bit of rock paper scissors in 30k, so taking a balanced or unusual force isn't a bad idea!

 

For example, I have a loyalist World Eater army that actually plays more like an Ultramarine force and relies on counter attacking. It works still and often catches people off guard when they forget how good chain axes are.

[SkimaskMohawk]

A lot of legions have their original rite of war that's the more powerful of the two, while a few are inverted.

 

Covenant of fire and reaping are imo complete traps, but a lot of people seem to like them a lot.

[Centauri]

Could you expand on what you mean theyre traps? I dont know much about the reaping but imo the obvious drawback to CoF is the lack of deepstrike? Is this what you mean?

[Slips]

Could you expand on what you mean theyre traps? I dont know much about the reaping but imo the obvious drawback to CoF is the lack of deepstrike? Is this what you mean?

Usually what is meant by a RoW being a trap is that the downsides (coupled with the Legiones Astartes benefits/drawbacks) usually outweigh the benefits.

[carlisimo]

Covenant of Fire increases the “troop tax” if you take 3+ Fast Attack and Heavy Support units. Given the RoW boost to flyers, speeders, and tanks, you’ll definitely want to do that (all the Heavy Support slots, at least). That’s a significant negative. So is losing Deep Strike, because Veterans with combi-meltas in a Dreadclaw is a popular way to deal with tanks and Leviathans are difficult to use well if they aren’t arriving in a Dreadnought Drop Pod. Also, Pyroclasts cost a lot of points and only have 1A, which is a problem in such a short-ranged unit. I don’t think a 2+ save makes up for it. Getting to take them as Troops isn’t much of an advantage, imo; I’d rather take a Support Squad with flamers.

 

But the rite does has its fans; one guy named his podcast after it and he seems like the kind of guy who would happily respond to an email.

 

30k players are a little less competitive. But the better generic rites of war are Orbital Assault, Pride of the Legion, Armored Breakthrough (don’t go 100% tank, please), Drop Assault Vanguard, and Sacrificial Offering (traitor only). Recon Company can be good with certain legions when you want that first turn shrouding benefit (e.g. Night Lords), though usually with minimum Recon Squads (one).

 

If your focus is the primarch, read up on what roles they have. Some are duelists best used against other primarchs (e.g. Leman Russ), others are best sent against elite units, and some are there to give the rest of the army bonuses (e.g. Alpharius). It’s not a part of the game I know enough about, but I could see it affecting which legion you pick.

 

Sometimes they force you into a somewhat boring army: a third to half your points all in your primarch+bodyguard in a Spartan or Kharybdis. The jumping/flying primarchs might have an advantage in that regard.

[SkimaskMohawk]

You've pretty much covered it, but I'll go over it in a different way.

 

Deepstrike is extremely powerful. There's a variety of units who have access to drop pods and dreadclaws without orbital assault, who benefit greatly from it. Dreadclaws are particularly flexible in that theyre very useful for both shooty and assault based units. Leviathans are of course massive line breakers.

 

The troop to heavy and fast is pretty big too. It basically locks your combined choices to your amount of troops. You need to max out your troops if you want to have a complete selection; javelin speeders are great fast attack choices and there's tons of good heavies. A lot that of course synergize with Obsidian Forged.

 

Pyroclasts aren't the worst thing to go into non-compulsory troops, but I find it hard to like them. They're an extremely close range unit that doesn't want to be in melee and is bad at charging; if they had 2 attacks base and extra ccw I'd like them more, but as it stands theyre just...bleh. If the Veneration of Wrath mastercrafted their weapons, they'd be a bit better. Or if their flamers were str 6.

 

The reaping is pretty much all the above but even worse. You have to fill your heavy slot and want to take heavy support squads to even have a reason to begin with, and give up 2 fast attack and the ability to run, deepstrike and go flat out. Youre reallllly slow.

 

On the point of primarchs who are jump infantry. They definitely warp lists less; curze gives +3 cover to his unit, corax usually goes solo and sang deepstrikes mostly in a day of revelation list imo. No transport cost and very little bodyguard. Also worth mentioning there's no transport they can even enter.