Kill Team Paladins, why more nerfs?

[Sweetcurse]

Seriously why ANOTHER nerf? Now the Paragon hits on a 3+, why? Every time I think I might enjoy my army here comes another nerf. #%*&

[Sweetcurse]

And they can only cast psybolt.

[Waking Dreamer]

What about the Custodes, is their WS2+ still?

[Halandaar]

And they can only cast psybolt.

 

So no different from any other non-Commander psyker in the game then. What exactly is the issue?

[Corvus Fortis]

Maybe, it is a typo and will be FAQed. Paying 3 points for +Ld is not worth it.

 

Custodes are 2+, yes.

[Sweetcurse]

How are paladins not 2+ to hit?

[Panzer]

Dude, it's just Kill Team. It's not a nerf because there was no Paladin in Kill Team before. Plenty units are slightly different from their 40k version in Kill Team.

[Sweetcurse]

Are they usually straight up worse than in 40k?

Having trouble understanding the 47 ppm cost.

[Sweetcurse]

Or a custodian guard 33 while a GKT is 36.

[Beams]

Or a custodian guard 33 while a GKT is 36.

Custodes can only ever it 2 or 3 models in a killteam, even in Commanders, where GK can fit 4 to 6, depending on the Killteam.

Custodes aren't pointed the same as everyone else, because they have such a huge weakness in number of models, that their guys are intrinsically worth less, because they can only have 2-3.

 

Meanwhile, a GK Gunner can fire 6 shots and cost 22. A 200 pt GK list can have a Brother-Captain, who is incredible, and 5 other guys, and 2 of then can shoot mind bullets that ignore invulns.

 

So the GK Terminators/Paladins have to cost their pts relative to their own models -- A Paladin with Zealot and Falchions will be pumping out 5 Str 5 ap-2 d3 damage attacks, plus mind bullets plus deepstrike plus 3 wounds and a 2+ save. I'd say that's about worth 2.5 1 wound Greyknights, especially since it's a much more easily hidden and obscured comparatively.

[Corvus Fortis]

Custodes can only ever it 2 or 3 models in a killteam, even in Commanders, where GK can fit 4 to 6, depending on the Killteam. 

 

 

Custodes can fit 3 models for a 100 pts game. They can hard time with MSU, but shouls absolutely wreck other elite armies. For 100 pts GK can bring up to 5 models. This is 9 wounds on the table vs 5 and superior stats. The only way GK can hurt custodes is mortal wounds, while Custodes destroy them in close combat and with 2+ save/t5 aren't bothered by bolter/psilencer. They ignore flesh wound penalties, so they stay fully effective until taken out of action. In range they hit on 3+ even obscured models and with AP-1 and d2. The only hope for GK player is to hold objectives and thow mortal wounds.

 

Meanwhile, a GK Gunner can fire 6 shots and cost 22. A 200 pt GK list can have a Brother-Captain, who is incredible, and 5 other guys, and 2 of then can shoot mind bullets that ignore invulns.

 

 

6 shots which would wound custodes on 5+ and have to go through 2+ save afterwards. For Commanders Custodes have exactly two builds - Shield-Cap+Allarus or Shield-Cap+2 Guardians. SC has 6 wounds and can be 3++, poor shooting but destorying everything in melee. It will take 3 psychic phases to take him down, if he is in range of smite, closest target, won't deny smite with Spark of Divinity and won't make a single Emeperor's Aegis roll. BroCap has a chance against Guardian Spears, but Storm Shields will make him useless.The only thig GK has in shooting phase against custodes is Demolshier Gunner with Psycannon. It is 4 shots, it will wound on 2+ and will have -1 rend, so Stormshields or Aegis won't matter. Actually, I thing Librarian Psyker Specialism Smite Bomb is better. 2 Smites with +2 to cast, which are d3 mortal wounds on 9+ and another smite from a strike. 

 

So the GK Terminators/Paladins have to cost their pts relative to their own models -- A Paladin with Zealot and Falchions will be pumping out 5 Str 5 ap-2 d3 damage attacks, plus mind bullets plus deepstrike plus 3 wounds and a 2+ save. I'd say that's about worth 2.5 1 wound Greyknights, especially since it's a much more easily hidden and obscured comparatively. 

 

 

But the same could be applied to custodes. Custodian Guard is superiour to Paladin in every single way besides psychic powers and teleport strike, while priced ~ 30% less.

[Sweetcurse]

How many GKT fit in 100 pts?

[Beams]

How many GKT fit in 100 pts?

5. But the issue is also Objective holding and force projection -- A Custodes player with 3 guys can only hold 3 objectives max etc and the list with 2 Custodes can only hold 2 -- and it's not hard to outmanuever a 2 person list.

 

Custodes may be better pt for pt than grey knights, but they are harder to play overall, and way more vulnerable to bad rolls.

[Sweetcurse]

Am I missing something? How can we fit 5 GKT if they are 37 pts?

[Beams]

Am I missing something? How can we fit 5 GKT if they are 37 pts?

 

Didn't see the T, and obviously only 2 then. But you can fit 1 Terminator and 3 non-terminators, which still gives you way more flexibility and force projection than if you did 2 or 3 custodes. At least here, you can spread out and force, say, a guard player to split his forces, and have a smaller profile to more easily be completely hidden by terrain.

 

A custodes player can't do that as well, and is likely going to lose a Custode turn 1 or 2, and then have to deal with 18 Guardsmen and 2 Bullgryns with 1 Custode Terminator left. Also, the extra wounds are less meaningful when someone can just overcharge plasma and deal 2 at a time.

[Sweetcurse]

I know it’s apples to oranges, but I don’t get the point costs of our units at all in KT. A regular Terminator is:

Bare: 25

Storm Bolter: 2

Power Sword: 1

Total 28.

 

GKT: 36

SB: 0

Nemesis Sword: 0

 

Assuming the Nemesis Sword is worth 2 points and the SB 2 points as well, is Psyker and Brotherhood is Psykers worth 8 points difference? Not sure that’s right. Shouldn’t our GKT in KT be closer to 30 at most? Also our stats are slightly worse.

 

On the other hand, PAGK seem “cheap,” of you assume the cost is:

PAGK: 12

Stormbolter: 2

Nemesis Sword: 4

 

Seems they get Psyker and BoP free. So weird.

[Panzer]

I suggest playing a few rounds with a variety of missions and against a variety of other Kill Teams. If you still think it doesn't make sense, send a mail to GW.

In such a tight list where you can have only 2-5 models you can't really compare some of the models 1:1 in a void.

[Sweetcurse]

I’m fully aware doing 1:1 is not exact, but you got to admit the points are wonky. It’s why the best systems don’t even use points.

[Icosiel]

Wait, can Paladins in Kill Team only cast Psybolt?

[Sweetcurse]

Yep

[Halandaar]

Well, Psybolt is effectively a gun that doesn't suffer modifiers to hit, hits more often than BS3 and then completely ignores toughness, armour and invulnerables, and even has a chance to deal multiple wounds. It could be argued that the GK Terminator is "paying" 8 points for the ability to remove a 28pt SM Terminator with a single cast.

[Sweetcurse]

That’s an expensive gun that can kill you back. Not worth 8 points imo.

[Holier Than Thou]

Isn’t Psybolt affected by Rites of Banishment? So a single wound, so no way to remove a Terminator with a single cast.

[Beams]

That’s an expensive gun that can kill you back. Not worth 8 points imo.

 

It depends on what you are hitting with it.

A mortal wound that bypasses to hit restrictions that would normally hurt you -- An Obscured Kommando has a -2 to hit, as do those pesky Space Marine Vanguard snipers, etc, while Smite goes on a 5+, but Grey Knights get +1, so a 4+/12, which means you are failing only on a 2 or 3, meaning 1/12 of the time. And then there is no wound roll -- just a mortal wound, which also means that Vanguard Sniper with the -2 to hit doesn't get to roll his armor. And you get to cast two of these a round.

 

EDIT:

My Current List is

 

Librarian, Psychic Discipline with Nemesis Falchions, Sanctuary and Hammerhand

Justicar, Leader, Force Halbred

Grey Knight Gunner, Heavy, with Psilencer

Grey Knight Gunner, Comms, with Psilencer

Terminator Justicar, Zealot, with Nemesis Falchions

 

The intent is to have the Terminator Armored dudes in the front, and the others behind cover. Librarian casts Sanctuary to get a 3++ vs plasma spam, and we push up the board while the Heavy lays accurate split fire against any of the 'Blobs' that you usually see.

[noigrim]

Custodes... yes