Post FAQ imperial knights

[faithonwings]

Dear fellow commanders.

 

I was wondering if any of you still use imperial knights in this post FAQ erra. What are you'r opionions about the army. Is it still a competative army? Or does it suck right now.

 

If you play it, how do you keep it viable? Do you still use the Castellan? I'm guessing you'r not. Or what about the valliant??? Do you use FW now because they are better? Or do you use more armingers, because quantity is a quality of it's own.

 

And allies? I feel almost obligated to use An Assassin if not a detachement? Does anyone share this feeling?

[Stray]

Personally? I think Knights are in a great spot right now - even after the FAQ. 

The changes to the Castellan haven't hurt Knight armies in the slightest really, all they've done is made it a less obvious choice for soup lists looking to employ it as a CP sink crutch unit.

 

 

Are Knights competitive? Yes. Absolutely. They have significant weaknesses, and aren't among the most powerful armies out there, but statistically they're in about the top third, and remain a very significant gate-keeper type army. 

 

Will you see a pure Knight list winning the LVO or similar any time soon? No. The truly min-maxed lists win there and solo Knights are not one. But you will see them put in a respectable performance, and you will see Knights allied into winning lists. (Probably with more Crusaders and the occasional Porphyrion being seen now, due to the Castellan changes).

 

 

As for allies...

 

They aren't needed, but given Knights weak objective game and the way 8th works, they're a good idea. Mainly you're talking here about cheap screening units that you can also use for ob-sec. I don't believe assassins are in any way a necessity, but they don't hurt if you have left over points. The Culexis (spelling) can help with anti Psyker duty which Knights don't typically have an answer for, (the 'Ha ha, you fight last even though you charged' strat is great too). The others I feel are useful toys - we can do the things they all do for the most part already (though there is an efficiency argument certainly.)

[faithonwings]

Thank you for the reply. What kind of list are you running or would you be running if you went to a tourney? 4 codex large knights? armingers? any of the FW models? 

 

I ussually end up with a list with  100 point gap, so I tend to bring a culexus. helps with both objectives and anti psycker. loyal 32 always helps I think.

[Stray]

Thank you for the reply. What kind of list are you running or would you be running if you went to a tourney? 4 codex large knights? armingers? any of the FW models? 

 

I ussually end up with a list with  100 point gap, so I tend to bring a culexus. helps with both objectives and anti psycker. loyal 32 always helps I think.

 

I generally play Renegade Knights (so you can tell already, I'm not a very competitive player ), but have a lot of appreciation for my Imperial counterparts (shh, don't actually tell them that though), and play around with Imperial lists from time to time. While not being a competitive player, I do love the competitive scene and armchair speculating around it.

 

So with that out of the way...

 

I'd probably run a Lance of three large Knights and put left over points into a CP battery/Ob sec detachment/screen, probably Skitarii because I like them, but there're arguably better options in the Astra Militarium Codex if you're really min maxing. I think that's essentially the core of any Knight-centric list that is looking to do well.

 

Armigers are okay, but I don't favour them unless it's simply to fill out a Lance due to points. The Helverin especially, I feel is a little overrated. It's far from being a poor unit, and people have plenty of games where it does amazing things. Maths doesn't lie though, and on average I'm not sure its performance and weaknesses make it as cost effective as many think. I actually think the Warglaive is more useful in that it's a fast, capable melee unit with some staying power, so it can be used to tie some things up for a while.

 

I wouldn't take either where I can feasibly just have another full size Knight though.

 

Forge World Knights are a mixed bag. Some are pretty good, some are good but situational, others are simply quite bad.

For me, I avoid the Megaera and the Castigator. Both cost too much and do too little. They're still Knights, so they'll always be impactful units, but in each case there's other options that just do the job cheaper or better. Why take a Castigator over a unit with Endless Fury for example? This edition, its melee weapon really isn't all that great - feet do better vs infantry, while gauntlets perform better against armour - even on non-gallants.

 

The Lancer, Atrapos and Acheron are all pretty good, and three of my favourite Knights. With the relics available in the Codex, I'm not sure how cost effective they are to Imperial Players though. A Paragon Gauntlet Gallant hits harder in Melee than either the Lancer or Atrapos, (which is REALLY saying something) and is considerably cheaper. They're tough nuts to crack though, so I wouldn't entirely write them off.

 

The Acheron is a fairly good option. The obvious comparison is to the Valiant, which, while is does hit harder vs squishy targets, performs equally against just about everything else. The Acheron though is MUCH faster, cheaper in terms of CP, tougher, and pretty capable in melee too. Seems a good option if flamethrowers are your thing

 

The Styrix is a weird one. On it's own, it's alright. The base 4++ is good, and the weapons are fine. Gear it up with relics etc though (Krast in particular) and it can become quite the little monster for its cost.

 

Porphy the wonder-knight is... great, if your list can afford it. It does a ludicrous amount of wounds to anything armoured it shoots at and rotate costs 1CP on it. Given the recent rise in points cost for the Castellan, many are speculating that soup lists will take the Porphyrion instead. In Knight heavy lists, it's probably too expensive though, and likely also unnecessary - Our other Knights don't exactly lack answers in terms of firepower

 

My two pence worth anyway

[faithonwings]

Thanks for the detailed answer. What do you think about the Valliant. Thinking about running it with House Raven.

 

Why is the Castigator a bad choice. It's 24 point more than a warden, get's you 2" more movement, a small healing option, a extra d6 (pick the highest) advance movement and 3 extra wounds. Relic avenger gatling is good, but you only get the one relic. Why not a relic and a castigator? Sounds like a good option to me. (o.k, on average it's a bit worse in melee vs armour)

[Clingy]

I think If your going Valiant you’d be wise to consider one of the imperial houses for access to the conflagration relic. Hawkshroud for ignoring brackets or Terryn for getting up the board faster should be good shouts.

 

A Valiant isn’t the most competitive of the knights but it’s a fun unit

[faithonwings]

I understand why you say this. The relic is awesome. Biggest problem is not being able to schoot it T1. With Raven, you have a chance with that

[sneakybamsen]

Strictly speaking the Castigator advances 2d6, not pick the highest.

 

I'll keep this a short answer to how a list with more than just one knight could look - it's not min-maxed, but 52 S6 ap-2 d2 shots is fun. It's what I will be taking to a GT here in Denmark in a few weeks.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355696-2k-knights-admech-for-etc-tournament/

[Stray]

Thanks for the detailed answer. What do you think about the Valliant. Thinking about running it with House Raven.

 

Why is the Castigator a bad choice. It's 24 point more than a warden, get's you 2" more movement, a small healing option, a extra d6 (pick the highest) advance movement and 3 extra wounds. Relic avenger gatling is good, but you only get the one relic. Why not a relic and a castigator? Sounds like a good option to me. (o.k, on average it's a bit worse in melee vs armour)

 

The Castigator isn't a bad choice, it's just not a great one. And for me, still easily the worst of the Cerastus chassis's.

While it's certainly tougher and quicker than the Warden, it has the same issue all Cerastus Knights do in that you can't use the strats to give it Relics or Warlord traits - you HAVE to make it your warlord to benefit, and then your choices are quite limited compared to a Questorus type.

 

That's not the end of the world, and doesn't make it a bad option, but at more points for less firepower over say a Warden, it does make it one of the worst of our available options.

 

The Valiant...

I like it personally, but I'm not sold on it being very efficient. The harpoon will either do great, or miss completely and do nothing. It's a very inconsistent weapon that is too reliant on good fortune for my tastes. The flamethrower is great, BUT it's also a relatively short ranged weapon on a slow, expensive Knight, that is even more vulnerable in close combat than we normally are. Add in 3CP rotates and, competitively, there's a reason you never see them fielded :/

Casual games though, have at it! I'm fond of it for sure, just realistic about it's strengths and weaknesses :)

[faithonwings]

Strictly speaking the Castigator advances 2d6, not pick the highest.

 

I'll keep this a short answer to how a list with more than just one knight could look - it's not min-maxed, but 52 S6 ap-2 d2 shots is fun. It's what I will be taking to a GT here in Denmark in a few weeks.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355696-2k-knights-admech-for-etc-tournament/

 

Seems good to me. Thank you for pointing out the difference. Reading and understanding all of those rules... 2d6 makes is really really fast, already thought about using it with landstrider.

 

 

Thanks for the detailed answer. What do you think about the Valliant. Thinking about running it with House Raven.

 

Why is the Castigator a bad choice. It's 24 point more than a warden, get's you 2" more movement, a small healing option, a extra d6 (pick the highest) advance movement and 3 extra wounds. Relic avenger gatling is good, but you only get the one relic. Why not a relic and a castigator? Sounds like a good option to me. (o.k, on average it's a bit worse in melee vs armour)

 

The Castigator isn't a bad choice, it's just not a great one. And for me, still easily the worst of the Cerastus chassis's.

While it's certainly tougher and quicker than the Warden, it has the same issue all Cerastus Knights do in that you can't use the strats to give it Relics or Warlord traits - you HAVE to make it your warlord to benefit, and then your choices are quite limited compared to a Questorus type.

 

That's not the end of the world, and doesn't make it a bad option, but at more points for less firepower over say a Warden, it does make it one of the worst of our available options.

 

The Valiant...

I like it personally, but I'm not sold on it being very efficient. The harpoon will either do great, or miss completely and do nothing. It's a very inconsistent weapon that is too reliant on good fortune for my tastes. The flamethrower is great, BUT it's also a relatively short ranged weapon on a slow, expensive Knight, that is even more vulnerable in close combat than we normally are. Add in 3CP rotates and, competitively, there's a reason you never see them fielded :/

Casual games though, have at it! I'm fond of it for sure, just realistic about it's strengths and weaknesses

 

 

I didn't realise the strat for extra relics and traits can't be used on them. Making them a warlord does paint an even bigger target on there very tall backs. I think the warden and castigator are very similar. I do favor the castigator because of the massive charge range it has but I do get you'r point about the other ceratus being a lot better. Only now took a good look at the atropos.. that thing is a beast. And I never realised the acherons flamer does 3 dmg... insane

[Magos Takatus]

I'm a little saddened that the Castigator is considered a weak pick, it's the Cerastus Knight that I picked. Typical. I picked the one that appeared to specialize in more Dakka. :p

 

When I've got some plastic Knights under my belt I'll give the Castigator a go when I finally get some transfers for my Knights.

[Nusquam]

I agree knights are still good overall.

 

With the Castellan going up it really has to be the Raven Wrathstellan to be worth the price, which it is. Other combinations aren't as great.

 

I've had luck with my Atrapos but I always feel like a Lancer would have been better. That 100+ points of savings could easily be another unit. But I just love the  Atrapos model so much.

[faithonwings]

I agree with you on the Castellan being poot right now. But I think we all can agree it was a little OP.

 

I personaly enjoy the challenge of comming up with something new.

 

How where you Lucky with the atrapos? Can you share us some stories?

[Nusquam]

I took 2nd in an event with my Atrapos, Castellan(Pre FAQ), and Stryx with Scion allies.

 

Atrapos had the 2+ and Landstrider(Was my actual warlord to do this), Castellan I gave Ion Bulwark, and the Stryx had a claw. I used Flank Speed+Strider+Full Tilt to full effect. I used Taranis so I only invested 1CP into the Castellan. The Raven Wrathstellan was the issue; I don't see me using a Castellan outside Apocalyspe now. The point hike was a band aid that was too knee jerk in my opinion. They needed to nerf Order of Companions and Cawls Wrath; that was the power anomaly. Other Castellan configurations aren't worth it now. I'll take my Shadowsword in place instead; I can take it and Psykers in a supreme command with points left over.

 

All the knights performed well. The Atrapos is good against anything else thats big. One game it ate a Telemon that charged it, went down a line of basilisks after cutting down a Castellan, and the other it took out a daemon prince of nurgle and some blight drones. It's shooting isn't great and every time it did well but a Lancer would have performed almost as well, it just wouldn't have to-wound rerolls, and would have tanked a little better in CC. Now that RIS is capped at 4++ the lancer can't get a 3++ in melee but it does get -1 to hit it for other Titanic units. Really its the price tag. I could get another plasma Scion squad with points to spare that could recoup any lost wounds from no wound rerolls while being able to stay on an objective and let the knight range out.

 

The Stryx I've been using a lot. Always does well, but you pay a lot for it.

 

Next I'm going to try a Preceptor list with a lot of Armigers.

[faithonwings]

Seems like a decent list. A lot of points in those 3 knights though. Would prop go for 4 cheaper knight myself. 2 crusaders a warden and a acheron maybe... 

 

Wil take you'r hint on that shadowsword. Maybe use one with 3 other knights? Could be fun.

 

I do notice you'r list would do very wel agains heavy armored list... but how do you think it will preform against hordes?  It had 0 avenger gatling cannons so that would have been a challenge I think.

 

Keep us updated on the arminger list. I don't think much of the preceptor, outside of arminger spam I think he doesn't make much sence. But I do amagine it would be very cool with 8-10 baby knights running arround.

[Nusquam]

I would have lost to hordes for sure. I forgot to mention it was a painted event with painting scoring so I brought my best painted knights.

 

If there's one thing I want the FAQ to do to the meta is increase the variety of knights and their builds. I suspect those that play House Raven will still use the Wrathstellan. But those other houses that may have used Cawls wrath perhaps we'll see other types.

[faithonwings]

That the problem isn't it? It's very hard to build a knight list that has a good chance vs horde army's. Using the Atropos leaves to with very limit rescources to adres this issue. 

 

I agree with you on the matter of knight builds. I would love to have more options to vary in builds, both GW and FW. Until a month ago the Castellan was an auto include. Now it is an auto exlude. Would love it if it became something in the middle. 

[jeremy1391]

That the problem isn't it? It's very hard to build a knight list that has a good chance vs horde army's. Using the Atropos leaves to with very limit rescources to adres this issue.

 

I agree with you on the matter of knight builds. I would love to have more options to vary in builds, both GW and FW. Until a month ago the Castellan was an auto include. Now it is an auto exlude. Would love it if it became something in the middle.

I wouldn’t say it’s an auto exclude, they cost more yes but they can still cause some serious damage on the table. They are now properly pointed

[Stray]

 

They are now properly pointed

 

Nah, I can't agree. The units cost was never an issue. Raising its cost is a lazy fix that does not address the core issues.

 

The Castellan, as a problem, is essentially caused by two elements:

 

- The interaction of the House Raven Stratagem on a unit with a large amount of potent firepower (causing disproportionate value from the strat).

- The generation of excessive levels of CP from allied detachments, being funnelled toward the Castellan - a unit whose internal codex balance deliberately limits the CP available to it.

 

I've said this before, but you never, ever, saw a Renegade Castellan fielded even at the old point cost. The unit on its own is just not that great. You'll certainly never see one at the new cost.

The Imperial variant though, was endemic. Why? Because of the above elements. It was not, and is not, a problem of points.

 

(I realise I haven't mentioned Cawls Wrath. The relic certainly enhances the firepower of the Castellan, but isn't imo a direct problem with the unit. The Raven strat is what makes the weapons work - CW included. Combined with enough CP to play it every turn, and to effectively negate the CP drain a Knight army would have from a Dominus class Knights use of rotate, and Houston, we have a problem...)

 

 

I'll go further and try to prove my thesis with a prediction:

 

Unless something else occurs to change the meta (everyone switching to running their Knights as Chaos due to whatever is in that new Codex for example), you will see the same lists present in tournaments, except with the Castellan having been replaced with Crusaders or possibly the Porphyrion, for the same effect. CP funnelled toward the Knights, and heavy use of the Raven strat to boost these units.

 

The 'issues' are still present, it's just that the Castellan likely won't be what is used to exploit them.

[faithonwings]

I agree with you for the most part. But it wasn't just the raven strat that was the problem. It also was the option to use 3++ save over and over again. I think it would have been never just fine with a 40-50 point extra cost and the strat nerf. You still would have seen them, just not in every list. 

[Stray]

I agree with you for the most part. But it wasn't just the raven strat that was the problem. It also was the option to use 3++ save over and over again. I think it would have been never just fine with a 40-50 point extra cost and the strat nerf. You still would have seen them, just not in every list. 

 

 Absolutely, and I mentioned this. A 3++ is only possible on a Dominus via Rotate Ion shields, and it has a baked in extra cost - 3CP. You can't feasibly spam that every turn in a pure Knight list. You don't have the CP. 

 

It works great though when you break the Knight codex internal balance by adding CP from external sources. Now you can run Raven strat on your permanently rotated monster Knight. Again, the issue isn't the unit. It's souped CP.

[faithonwings]

I agree the CP fuel from the soup makes it wors, but even without that. If you can get a 3++ save for even the first 2 turns. After that you you'r opponent just doesn't have the firepower to take it out anymore. If you set the priority targets right, that is.

[faithonwings]

O and BTW, thank you very much for all the input concerning the FW knights. I took all the advice to hart and made up my mind about what it is what I want. Orderd An atrapos yesterday morning. This is how my post FAQ list is going to look.

 

It's weak against Smite spam but in that case I will stay back and screen with the IG than charge in the turn after.

 

Raven Lance

 

Atrapos, lanstrider, 2+ save

Crusader, therm cannon, ionstorm, endless Fury

Galant, ionstorm

 

Mortan

 

Crusader, therm cannon, ionstorm, avenger, -1 to hit relic (for the strat)

 

Loyal 32, one hq is the psycker

 

5 points for a mortar

 

Raven detachement will rush forward guns blazing. Mortan will keep back more. Order of companions on the Raven crusader. Atrapos and mortan crusader against lots of flyers. Ionstorms vs hiding tau drones or nid biovores. Hope the combined firepower and fast charges might give me a fighting chance vs hordes.

 

Looks o.k?

[Clingy]

Hi folks. Anyone got any guesses when the new Acastus class knight will be released. I never bought a Porphyrion in the end and am wondering what and when the new one will be like. (Cough meow

[MajorNese]

I'd guesstimate they'll release it in the next 2 months.

 

Yes, the 3D renders were out for some time, but it was only pre-released (design finished and started to produce) on the last event. Typically, they stretch the release of pre-released stuff over the following month or two, so they don't run out of stuff to release right after one big wave. Producing such big kits with many parts takes its time, they have to build enough stock first so it isn't sold out immediately.

 

The more relevant part for me will be if they release 40k rules with it. Otherwise, buying it can wait...