Is Guilliman really as good as people perceive him to be?

[Ishagu]

To clarify, i don't think Guilliman is broken at all. My contribution to this discussion has been that Guilliman has more to bring to the table than Marnius, and that the original post didn't mention his Imperium aura, which is actually useful, and a reason that you'd consider him over other options. I also stand by my statement that Guilliman is the greatest force multiplier in the game. There is nobody else who brings the sheer amount of aura to the table as he does, that is as widely applicable as his is. Whether or not people choose to use him for such is up to them.

Well this sounds a lot more civil and I appreciate it.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

There is nothing wrong with RG now that he is properly costed. There are plenty of other terrible like Knights and Deamon Primarchs to cry about... best thing to do is just get over it and move along. Ishagu has presented a basically infallible argument here.

 

His argument isn't infallible, and here's why:

 

I will use the list mentioned above from Aaron to demonstrate the strength of re-rolling all wounds, and ill do it against the other top 7 lists of the LVO for context.

 

What does Aaron's list run for firepower (I won't discuss the infantry here, as they likely aren't benefiting from re-rolls, but rather camping terrain and scoring points).  Lets look at his vehicles:

 

3x Predator Autocannon

42x Heavy Bolter Eq Shots (2x HBs and Heavy Onslaughts)

4x Lascannons

18x Ironhail Stubber shots (Str 4, -1AP)

Either 8x or 16x Bolter shots (I can't recall if LVO used the Bolter Discipline beta equiv)

 

Here is one example using a lower strength weapon against a common target in the field

 

3 Predator Autocannons (ST7, AP-1, D3) against a Knight Castellan (Rotated)

 

Average shots 12 (4 per)

 

Math: 

 

Bobby G: (12 * .889 * .553 * .5 * 3) = 8.85 Wounds

Cap and LT: (12 * .777 * .39 * .5 * 3) = 5.45 Wounds

Papa Smurf & LT: (12 * .889 * .39 * .5 * 3) = 6.24 Wounds

 

The comparative cost analysis:

 

-790 for the Primarch and the Predators.

-527 for the Captain and Lieutenant. This combination of units cost 67% of what it cost to bring Guilliman and the Predators but dealt 62% of the damage.

-650 for Calgar and the Lieutenant . This combination of units cost 82% of Guilliman's unit formation but deal 70% of the damage.

 

As you can see when compared to Ishagu's data, which compares a 3+ to Wound scenario, the Damage output as an advantageous relation to cost, which is a good thing (it demonstrates his argument is valid)

 

When you flip the script and show a 5+ to wound model, the relationship practically flips the opposite direction, the output in damage is below in relation to the cost.

 

I could model out what a 4+ to wound would be, but I expect it to be smack dab in the middle of the two. And if you go the other direction, its going to exacerbate it further. 

 

Recap/Conclusion:

 

Look at Aaron's list again, what does it have in terms of firepower in an overwhelming quantity? The Heavy Bolter profile (Str 5, AP -1). Whats so great about this profile with Bobby G? It can, in a pinch, kill just about anything, and quite efficiently.

 

With Bobby G, those 42 HBeqv can do:

 

(T3, 5+ Save) = 28 Dead GEQ

(T8, 3+ Save) = 10 Wounds KEQ

 

LVO also was the premier of the new Ork codex for a premier event, IIRC, and Aaron called the ball that their would be a TON of Orks in attendance, and there were. Those 42 HBeqvs alone kill ~33 boys a turn. Another beautiful thing about jamming that many HB shots into a list is: they don't really care about your 3++ or 4++, as they aren't paying for points for more deadly shots, but for just more shots.

 

The more dice you re-roll, the more value the ability has. In the case of Bobby G and Wound rolls, he provides a superior buff (coupled with Re-Roll hits) that shines especially when faced with 4+ to wound rolls or higher. When you factor in all the Bolter and Ironhail equivalent shots, it further illustrates the flexibility of re-roll to wound.

[Ishagu]

Aaron's list was pretty fortunate in his match ups. Had he encountered a Knight Castellan more often he'd have potentially lost one or both Repulsors turn 1. I'm not sure he actually encountered one?

 

The meta at the time was Knight, Horde or Flyers. His list is very effective at dealing with two of those, and he was lucky he didn't face the third.

If I recall he was in the top 8 on day 3 but was beaten in the play offs?

 

But yes that list did work particularly well thanks to Guilliman. There are unique plays to be made, as there should be.

[Panzer]

I haven't heard anybody calling Guilliman overpowered in months. I'm with you but I'm not sure such a thread was needed at all lol

[Ishagu]

I haven't heard anybody calling Guilliman overpowered in months. I'm with you but I'm not sure such a thread was needed at all lol

I actually saw the sentiment expressed quite a bit on Dakka. It's not so bad here in fairness.

 

Ugh I really don't like Dakka. Every poster is either full of Hyperbole or they troll more than I ever gave lol

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So...why are you presenting a countervailing opinion here? Shouldn't this thread have been started on Dakka since that's where the majority of the OP-cryers hang out?

[Ishagu]

It's not controversial. It's just a unit analysis. Not enough of this is done in my opinion.

[Dracos]

I've been thinking of doing a cost effective comparison of the two Primaris Librarians, so I'm all for more analysis.

 

With that thought. With an equal amount of points what would one substitute for Bobby G that would be as effective in a Imperium Soup list. I've seen him used in a multitude of Battle Reports in past year or so and mostly in a Soup.

[Gederas]

Also, Gederas is right about the Lamenters CM. But that takes up your CM slot, so then you don't get the CM aura of Hit Re-Rolls unfortunately.

Well, Malakim was FAQ'd, he has both the Re-roll Hits and Re-Roll wound auras now.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Also, Gederas is right about the Lamenters CM. But that takes up your CM slot, so then you don't get the CM aura of Hit Re-Rolls unfortunately.

Well, Malakim was FAQ'd, he has both the Re-roll Hits and Re-Roll wound auras now.

 

 

Wait, he does? Oh hell yes.

[Ishagu]

I wasn't aware of that! Wow that's amazing. The guy has great weapons on top too.

 

People should be running him, surrounded by Dreadnoughts and infantry. Best Chapter Master of the lot now.

[ERJAK]

Oh yeah, people should feel free to play whatever they want!

It warms my heart to see more Ultramarine. It fills it with anger when people use anecdotal experiences or personal dislikes to proclaim something as broken, overpowered or damaging to the game when it actually isn't! lol

The problem with guillamen isn't guilleman, it never really has been. The problem with guillyman is what happens when you pair gullyman with a unit that's efficient without girlybro, with guilleman.

 

Don't forget that Guillelelelman StormRavens was the single biggest power outlier we've seen in the whole edition.

[Volt]

Yeah I wouldn't call Guilliman OP by any means, even in terms of combat. Just for comparison with some hot dice, a Slamguinius outfitted with the best gear and pumped up with black rage stratagems can potentially splatter Guilliman on the charge and if you throw in another Slamguinius (still cheaper than Guilliman) you are almost guaranteed to instantly kill him on the charge. He's a great force multiplier for shooty lists and soup but isn't objectively superior to Blood Angel or Custodes soup cheese and is certainly not the combat god he was prior to the Blood Angel Codex release. And of course unlike a Smash Captain Guilliman is paying a points tax for his melee and shooting abilities that are unlikely to even come into play if things are going as planned because you don't want to risk him in melee against anything that could either tarpit him or potentially even slay him in melee. He's just too important and thus stays a bubble-wrapped bauble existing purely to buff surrounding units.

[Race Bannon]

 

To clarify, i don't think Guilliman is broken at all. My contribution to this discussion has been that Guilliman has more to bring to the table than Marnius, and that the original post didn't mention his Imperium aura, which is actually useful, and a reason that you'd consider him over other options. I also stand by my statement that Guilliman is the greatest force multiplier in the game. There is nobody else who brings the sheer amount of aura to the table as he does, that is as widely applicable as his is. Whether or not people choose to use him for such is up to them.

Well this sounds a lot more civil and I appreciate it.

 

 

Correction: we ALL appreciate it ^_^

[Charlo]

 

 

Also, Gederas is right about the Lamenters CM. But that takes up your CM slot, so then you don't get the CM aura of Hit Re-Rolls unfortunately.

Well, Malakim was FAQ'd, he has both the Re-roll Hits and Re-Roll wound auras now.

Do you have the FAQ? I can't see this anywhere... There is talk on 1d4chan of a forge world email but not sure if that's proof

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

 

 

Also, Gederas is right about the Lamenters CM. But that takes up your CM slot, so then you don't get the CM aura of Hit Re-Rolls unfortunately.

Well, Malakim was FAQ'd, he has both the Re-roll Hits and Re-Roll wound auras now.

Do you have the FAQ? I can't see this anywhere... There is talk on 1d4chan of a forge world email but not sure if that's proof

 

 

I went looking for the same thing. I see multiple people also receiving responses from Forge World saying that his special rule replaces the typical CM rule.

 

Here is the FAQ: https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/imperial_armour_index_forces_of_the_adeptus_astartes.pdf

 

Edit: I am pretty sure if that was the case, we would see a lot of Lamenters lists, as it effectively gives Bobby G's force multiplier for nearly half his points, AND to a better Codex of unit options and strats.

[Ishagu]

What's stopping someone for getting another captain and paying 3CP for thr chapter master aura?

 

This could be a very powerful and under-used combination..

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

What's stopping someone for getting another captain and paying 3CP for thr chapter master aura?

 

This could be a very powerful and under-used combination..

 

Because the Chapter Master strat says right on it you can't have two Chapter Masters.

 

[Ishagu]

Oh, well that shuts me right up

[Charlo]

 

 

 

 

Also, Gederas is right about the Lamenters CM. But that takes up your CM slot, so then you don't get the CM aura of Hit Re-Rolls unfortunately.

Well, Malakim was FAQ'd, he has both the Re-roll Hits and Re-Roll wound auras now.

Do you have the FAQ? I can't see this anywhere... There is talk on 1d4chan of a forge world email but not sure if that's proof

I went looking for the same thing. I see multiple people also receiving responses from Forge World saying that his special rule replaces the typical CM rule.

 

Here is the FAQ: https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/imperial_armour_index_forces_of_the_adeptus_astartes.pdf

 

Edit: I am pretty sure if that was the case, we would see a lot of Lamenters lists, as it effectively gives Bobby G's force multiplier for nearly half his points, AND to a better Codex of unit options and strats.

Okay, so it's not in the FAQ then. Sadly FW emails from the ever so chipper "billy the intern" are not official rules :(

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Be glad emails from Billy aren’t official, be very glad.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Yes, he is that good. The problem is every good option in the game will have several hundred more casual players or players of weaker factions/units complain about them being broken or the absolute best in the game.

 

Guilliman is powerful enough to keep par with the best options, for better or worse. It's up to personal preference how people view that level of power. Guilliman is so good that even the thought of trying to pretend or argue that he has weak rules is completely laughable and absurd. "But these other things are just as good!" has never been a good argument to prove a unit isn't very strong.

[Ishagu]

Yes, he is that good. The problem is every good option in the game will have several hundred more casual players or players of weaker factions/units complain about them being broken or the absolute best in the game.

 

Guilliman is powerful enough to keep par with the best options, for better or worse. It's up to personal preference how people view that level of power. Guilliman is so good that even the thought of trying to pretend or argue that he has weak rules is completely laughable and absurd. "But these other things are just as good!" has never been a good argument to prove a unit isn't very strong.

But the truth is that he isn't that good. There is a perception that he is. You're saying that the argument that "other things are just as good“ isn't very strong.

 

I'm outright stating that there are many things far better. Right now at the BAO there isn't a Guilliman list within the top 40. There's two outside the top 100.

 

There are, ironically, Salamanders and Space Wolves placing higher if you want to strictly talk about Astartes. In the current game Space Marines are under performing. Guilliman is not fixing any of the problems.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

 

 

Yes, he is that good. The problem is every good option in the game will have several hundred more casual players or players of weaker factions/units complain about them being broken or the absolute best in the game.

Guilliman is powerful enough to keep par with the best options, for better or worse. It's up to personal preference how people view that level of power. Guilliman is so good that even the thought of trying to pretend or argue that he has weak rules is completely laughable and absurd. "But these other things are just as good!" has never been a good argument to prove a unit isn't very strong.

But the truth is that he isn't that good. There is a perception that he is. You're saying that the argument that "other things are just as good“ isn't very strong.

I'm outright stating that there are many things far better. Right now at the BAO there isn't a Guilliman list within the top 40. There's two outside the top 100.

There are, ironically, Salamanders and Space Wolves placing higher if you want to strictly talk about Astartes. In the current game Space Marines are under performing. Guilliman is not fixing any of the problems.

 

 

There actually is. In my quick review, Brian Andersen is playing Imperial Soup, and has Bobby G in his list. He is currently ranked 23rd, with a WLWW record.

 

You know whats even better? He isn't even playing ultras, he's playing Mechanicus knights (Krast), with a Skitarii Battalion. It appears he's using Bobby G simply for the Imperium-only buff and as a beat stick.

 

Ishagu i'm starting to feel like you lean towards being a bit hyperbolic my brother! 

 

Edit: 

 

I kept going down the list and Allen Marshall is also playing Ultras with Bobby G, also with a 3-1 record, and at 24th place.

 

Edit #2: 

 

Jay Miller is also 3-1, Place #40, and running Ultras with Bobby G

[PeteySödes]

There are, ironically, Salamanders and Space Wolves placing higher if you want to strictly talk about Astartes. In the current game Space Marines are under performing. Guilliman is not fixing any of the problems.

Again though, he’s a force multiplier, I would argue he makes those problems worse.