Is Guilliman really as good as people perceive him to be?

[Ishagu]

 

 

 

Yes, he is that good. The problem is every good option in the game will have several hundred more casual players or players of weaker factions/units complain about them being broken or the absolute best in the game.

 

Guilliman is powerful enough to keep par with the best options, for better or worse. It's up to personal preference how people view that level of power. Guilliman is so good that even the thought of trying to pretend or argue that he has weak rules is completely laughable and absurd. "But these other things are just as good!" has never been a good argument to prove a unit isn't very strong.

But the truth is that he isn't that good. There is a perception that he is. You're saying that the argument that "other things are just as good“ isn't very strong.

 

I'm outright stating that there are many things far better. Right now at the BAO there isn't a Guilliman list within the top 40. There's two outside the top 100.

 

There are, ironically, Salamanders and Space Wolves placing higher if you want to strictly talk about Astartes. In the current game Space Marines are under performing. Guilliman is not fixing any of the problems.

There actually is. In my quick review, Brian Andersen is playing Imperial Soup, and has Bobby G in his list. He is currently ranked 23rd, with a WLWW record.

 

You know whats even better? He isn't even playing ultras, he's playing Mechanicus knights (Krast), with a Skitarii Battalion. It appears he's using Bobby G simply for the Imperium-only buff and as a beat stick.

 

Ishagu i'm starting to feel like you lean towards being a bit hyperbolic my brother!

 

Edit:

 

I kept going down the list and Allen Marshall is also playing Ultras with Bobby G, also with a 3-1 record, and at 24th place.

 

Edit #2:

 

Jay Miller is also 3-1, Place #40, and running Ultras with Bobby G

Lol 24th place isn't exactly evidence of anything.

One is bound to perform well!

 

You seen all the Heldrakes in lists preforming well? They must be the amazing

[Prot]

There aren't a lot of Cawl lists in the top of the tournament either. Does that make him a poor choice?  Maybe.. or maybe just the lists don't need him. 

 

I personally don't think this debate is about Guilliman at all. Guilliman is very, very good at what he does. He's a force multiplier like no other. However he's got one big strike against him; he multiplies mediocrity. 

 

That's it in a nutshell. There's a guy (as I write this) at BAO in 12th with a Guilliman based list. But what is Guilliman's godlike ability enhancing? Marines? A squad of Terminators? Primaris? Nope... look to Forgeworld for your answer. Relic Contemptor x 2 and a Relic Leviathan.  The rest of the list is min-maxed troops, and the Relic tax TFC, and 2 Redemptors for spam.

 

This is really the crux of the matter. 

 

Think back to when Guilliman was being used to host fire bases of flyers. Flyers got nerfed. Think back to when he was hosting fire bases of Razorbacks. Razorbacks, and Assault Cannons got nerfed.  

 

I once asked the crew on Warhammer TV if they ever planned on revisiting any of those point values now that they jacked Guilliman so high. They didn't have a clue what I was referring to. (To me this conveyed a sense of disconnect. The left hand not knowing what the right is doing.)

 

So outside of Guilliman how often would we have seen Assault cannon Razors, and Stormravens? Almost never? 

 

That's the problem... he makes decent stuff REALLY good. And Dad's firesword is amazing. Now it almost feels like the penalty for this is we can't have nice things. Maybe at 400 points they won't feel that way moving forward. But what's broken is broken... we won't know until the next codex.

 

Food for thought: One simple, but significant change: If you took his aura away, and made it re-roll any to hits only would you take him for 275 points? 

 

Personally I would because really in my mind he is the equivalent of a super Daemon Prince, with the tactical advantage of Abaddon PLUS a sprinkle of Primarch on top. 

 

The beauty of that solution to me is we can go back to having nice things, a good codex. And those of us that love Ultramarines (all 5 of us) could go back to a larger army and still include Guilliman.

[Cruor Vault]

 

I personally don't think this debate is about Guilliman at all. Guilliman is very, very good at what he does. He's a force multiplier like no other. However he's got one big strike against him; he multiplies mediocrity. 

 

That's it in a nutshell. There's a guy (as I write this) at BAO in 12th with a Guilliman based list. But what is Guilliman's godlike ability enhancing? Marines? A squad of Terminators? Primaris? Nope... look to Forgeworld for your answer. Relic Contemptor x 2 and a Relic Leviathan.  The rest of the list is min-maxed troops, and the Relic tax TFC, and 2 Redemptors for spam.

 

This is really the crux of the matter. 

 

Think back to when Guilliman was being used to host fire bases of flyers. Flyers got nerfed. Think back to when he was hosting fire bases of Razorbacks. Razorbacks, and Assault Cannons got nerfed.  

 

I once asked the crew on Warhammer TV if they ever planned on revisiting any of those point values now that they jacked Guilliman so high. They didn't have a clue what I was referring to. (To me this conveyed a sense of disconnect. The left hand not knowing what the right is doing.)

 

So outside of Guilliman how often would we have seen Assault cannon Razors, and Stormravens? Almost never? 

 

That's the problem... he makes decent stuff REALLY good. And Dad's firesword is amazing. Now it almost feels like the penalty for this is we can't have nice things. Maybe at 400 points they won't feel that way moving forward. But what's broken is broken... we won't know until the next codex.

 

Food for thought: One simple, but significant change: If you took his aura away, and made it re-roll any to hits only would you take him for 275 points? 

 

Personally I would because really in my mind he is the equivalent of a super Daemon Prince, with the tactical advantage of Abaddon PLUS a sprinkle of Primarch on top. 

 

The beauty of that solution to me is we can go back to having nice things, a good codex. And those of us that love Ultramarines (all 5 of us) could go back to a larger army and still include Guilliman.

 

It's frustrating to be forced into using FW for this list, but what you say is the truth.  Nearly everything in the Space Marine codex is mediocre.  Either ineffectual at what it does, or overcosted.

 

That being said, don't discount the Redemptors/Intercessors/Thunderfire cannon.  Each of them is extremely good at what it does.

[Ciler]

[...]

 

The beauty of that solution to me is we can go back to having nice things, a good codex. And those of us that love Ultramarines (all 5 of us) could go back to a larger army and still include Guilliman.

You make some excellent points, and you make them well.

 

And those of us that would like to play marines others than the boys in blue might also benefit from this arrangement.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

[...]

 

The beauty of that solution to me is we can go back to having nice things, a good codex. And those of us that love Ultramarines (all 5 of us) could go back to a larger army and still include Guilliman.

 

Just to recap from the BAO:

 

Allen Marshal (Pure ultras list with Bobby G) went 5-1, placed 12th, and missed the cutoff to the Top8 playoff by 21 points (161 battle points vs 182 battle points).

 

Brian Andersen and Jay Miller both went 4-2 and placed 30th and 43, respectively.

 

Basically Prot said (very elegnatly I might add) what I have been trying to say all along: It isn't that he himself is OP in a vacuum, it's more about the fact that his ability as a force multiplier is incredibly hard to balance.

 

If I was able to implement changes at will, here are what I think would balance him (and in turn allow the rest of Codex: SM to be re-balanced by not having him in his current incarnation).

 

Cost: 320. Drop the wound re-rolls from his profile entirely. Keep the Imperium-only aura, and keep the Chapter Master Aura. Stats/weapons remain the same

OR

Cost: 360. Reduce the re-roll wound portion of his aura to just re-roll 1s (like a Lieutenant). Keep the rest the same.

 

Revert the assault cannon nerf and the Stormraven nerf both. 

 

 

 

 

Lol 24th place isn't exactly evidence of anything.
One is bound to perform well!

You seen all the Heldrakes in lists preforming well? They must be the amazing

 

I honestly can't tell if your trolling, but responses like this feel like you are taking the subject you started less seriously than those that chose to invest time in discussing it with you.

 

The Heldrakes aren't strong (in a vacuum). They serve a very specific purpose: Get off first turn charges to tie up key units so the rest of your nasties can get up the board. They also increased in value after the DiscoLord hit the field. Don's list is really cool, and its pretty much an oddity. It's not like there was an abundance of Heldrakes in the meta (even when comparing to Bobby G.

 

 

[Subtleknife]

I'm sorry but if you are going to take away his wound re roll you need to give him another power as that was his thing

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I just had a game with G versus an Admech army with a Castellan and Warden. It was a very close game and he did a lot of work but compared to Knights in general I don’t think he’s OP. And soon enough we will have to deal with the new and improved traitor equivalents. All three Primarchs can be game changing if you don’t have a plan to deal with them... it’s just part of Eighth Edition and people saying they wanted change.

[Ishagu]

 

[...]

 

 

The beauty of that solution to me is we can go back to having nice things, a good codex. And those of us that love Ultramarines (all 5 of us) could go back to a larger army and still include Guilliman.

Just to recap from the BAO:

 

Allen Marshal (Pure ultras list with Bobby G) went 5-1, placed 12th, and missed the cutoff to the Top8 playoff by 21 points (161 battle points vs 182 battle points).

 

Brian Andersen and Jay Miller both went 4-2 and placed 30th and 43, respectively.

 

Basically Prot said (very elegnatly I might add) what I have been trying to say all along: It isn't that he himself is OP in a vacuum, it's more about the fact that his ability as a force multiplier is incredibly hard to balance.

 

If I was able to implement changes at will, here are what I think would balance him (and in turn allow the rest of Codex: SM to be re-balanced by not having him in his current incarnation).

 

Cost: 320. Drop the wound re-rolls from his profile entirely. Keep the Imperium-only aura, and keep the Chapter Master Aura. Stats/weapons remain the same

OR

Cost: 360. Reduce the re-roll wound portion of his aura to just re-roll 1s (like a Lieutenant). Keep the rest the same.

 

Revert the assault cannon nerf and the Stormraven nerf both.

 

Lol 24th place isn't exactly evidence of anything.

One is bound to perform well!

 

You seen all the Heldrakes in lists preforming well? They must be the amazing

I honestly can't tell if your trolling, but responses like this feel like you are taking the subject you started less seriously than those that chose to invest time in discussing it with you.

 

The Heldrakes aren't strong (in a vacuum). They serve a very specific purpose: Get off first turn charges to tie up key units so the rest of your nasties can get up the board. They also increased in value after the DiscoLord hit the field. Don's list is really cool, and its pretty much an oddity. It's not like there was an abundance of Heldrakes in the meta (even when comparing to Bobby G.

 

The fact you're suggesting nerfs is baffling to me. Are you jealous that he is the Primarch of a chapter you don't collect? I can't see other reasons. I don't understand how you looked at the BAO tournament results and came to the conclusion that he needs to be nerfed?

 

What are your opinions on Daemons who made it to 2nd place or Trajan Valoris who was found in multiple top performing lists including the winner of the event? What about Knights and Guardsmen? You must really want to nerf those!

 

This is why it's hard to take Internet opinions seriously. The process that led to your conclusion cannot be objective.

Is this about the Assault Cannons on Razorbacks? That's pretty petty and poor if you think shaving 10 points off a unit would have any tangibly impact on Astartes currently. Do you think Eldar units should be re-costed around their psychic powers and craftworld traits? They get plenty of cheap re-rolls and endurance buffs not accounted for in their costs.

 

Nothing should be getting nerfed unless it's utterly dominating the game in all environments for an extended period of time. The army shortcomings will likely be addressed in the next codex.

[FlamingDeth]

You're winning at missing the point. You keep bringing up petty jealousy and I would bet money that's not the motivation for the vast majority of the people wanting to nerf G-man's aura.

 

It's not that he is currently dominating in tournament lists. It doesn't matter if he is or not.

 

It's not that people want to bring assault cannons razorbacks and storm ravens.

 

It's that in the abstract every unit in the codex has to be balanced around the *possibility* of being accompanied by Guilliman. If every unit in the codex was balanced internally and externally where they could stand on their own, Guilliman absolutely would be overpowered because of how much better he makes everything around him.

 

I have no problem with Guilliman existing. I have no problem with him being powerful. I just want him to be powerful in a way that doesn't involve nerfing other units in the codex. I've always seen him as more of a big picture/grand strategy/logistics kinda guy fluffwise, rather than skirmish/squad tactics (not to say he'd be bad at that just not his specialty), so I'd want to see him have the chapter master and regular lieutenant auras, and then something buffing reserves and reinforcements, and possibly messing up the opponent's reserves and reinforcements. I think that would represent his character way better than "look I'm really good at yelling at these three squads of guys". Leave the microtactic specialty to Russ or the Lion.

 

To reiterate: nobody (well, probably almost nobody) wants to make Guilliman worse, just different, so that other units can be brought up to par. Also, if you think "petty jealousy" is something to post about you've probably run out of logical arguments.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If it’s not as good then it’s worse.

[PeteySödes]

If it’s not as good then it’s worse.

I believe the point was just that you can make him just as good without having to balance everyone around him. Though yes he would be worse as a buffer potentially but better I providing other tactical options in the example provided.

 

In the end, you can’t please everyone.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Guilliman would have to be a hell of a lot more expensive to balance out on lists if other SM units were brought up to speed. The reason people are suggesting nerfs is a way to keep him in lists without making him an enormous point sink, while letting other units be buffed. If he keeps his current auras and other units in the SM codex get updated without his price being blasted through the roof, he's going to get out of hand very quickly.That's just how the math works out.

 

That's why you see suggestions of trimming down his auras without compensation. Those are made with the understanding that the rest of the SM units get updated to not be awful. If all he ever gets to buff are crap SM units with his primary aura, he wont' be broken, but the rest of the SM codex will stay garbage. That isn't exactly fun for the rest of us who have to play with those units. And again, if SM units get stronger, Guilliman's force multiplication gets out of hand extremely quickly. His aura is ridiculously powerful.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I seriously doubt there will be any changes any time soon. You don’t see traitor players complaining about their Daemon Primarchs do you ?

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Eh. I tried to explain.

 

Short answer, yes. Guilliman is as strong as people think he is. No, that doesn't make him broken at the moment. Not much else I can contribute here. Every point has been brought up and outlined. Go any further and we'll just circle back around to the start.

[Panzer]

It's that in the abstract every unit in the codex has to be balanced around the *possibility* of being accompanied by Guilliman. If every unit in the codex was balanced internally and externally where they could stand on their own, Guilliman absolutely would be overpowered because of how much better he makes everything around him.

 

But ... that's the case for any force multiplier? It's literally their whole purpose. It's the case for any Captain, Chapter Master, Psyker with buffing powers, Markerlights, subfaction rules (not all of them are equal so they can't be part of a units cost already), Stratagems and so on and on

[FlamingDeth]

 

It's that in the abstract every unit in the codex has to be balanced around the *possibility* of being accompanied by Guilliman. If every unit in the codex was balanced internally and externally where they could stand on their own, Guilliman absolutely would be overpowered because of how much better he makes everything around him.

 

But ... that's the case for any force multiplier? It's literally their whole purpose. It's the case for any Captain, Chapter Master, Psyker with buffing powers, Markerlights, subfaction rules (not all of them are equal so they can't be part of a units cost already), Stratagems and so on and on

Yes, but those are force multipliers that you can get as, say, Raven Guard or Imperial Fists. It's a little different if everyone can use them, even more so when they're generics and not named characters, and even even more so when they're guys that would logically be part of most space marine forces in the fluff anyways.

[The Unseen]

Except nothing else comes anywhere close to a force multiplier as potent as Gman.

Having to balance around reroll 1s to hit is nothing compared to reroll ALL hits and ALL wounds, which is just nuts.

 

Reroll 1s to wound is strong, rerolling all failed wounds is *insane* when you talk about throwing a bunch of shots that wound on 4s or 5s.

It would absolutely break effeciency math if the unit's Gman could buff weren't horrifically overcosted to begin with.

Like, imagine that buff on a unit as effecient as guardsmen.

*shudders*

 

That, and the fact that that power is locked to a very specific chapter doesn't help the negative feelings people have towards him.

If the vanilla dex units are weak because of potential Gman abuse, ultra players just *have* to run him to be competetive.

Anyone who isn't ultras gets left behind, effectively.

And that's more or less what we've seen, what few vanilla marine lists have done well at top-tier tables have almost always been based around Gman, which means they've all been ultras.

 

Right now Gman doesn't matter because the vanilla dex is so far below the power curve he can't bring them up much past par.

But if you went and gave marines the buffs/pts drops/fresh strategems they need to be competitive on their own, Gman suddenly explodes into game breakingly effecient.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

The fact you're suggesting nerfs is baffling to me. Are you jealous that he is the Primarch of a chapter you don't collect? I can't see other reasons. I don't understand how you looked at the BAO tournament results and came to the conclusion that he needs to be nerfed?

What are your opinions on Daemons who made it to 2nd place or Trajan Valoris who was found in multiple top performing lists including the winner of the event? What about Knights and Guardsmen? You must really want to nerf those!

This is why it's hard to take Internet opinions seriously. The process that led to your conclusion cannot be objective.

Is this about the Assault Cannons on Razorbacks? That's pretty petty and poor if you think shaving 10 points off a unit would have any tangibly impact on Astartes currently. Do you think Eldar units should be re-costed around their psychic powers and craftworld traits? They get plenty of cheap re-rolls and endurance buffs not accounted for in their costs.

Nothing should be getting nerfed unless it's utterly dominating the game in all environments for an extended period of time. The army shortcomings will likely be addressed in the next codex.

Congratulations.

 

You managed to demonstrate both your reading comprehension skills as well as confirm my preconceived notions about you all in one post. Hyperbolic blow-hard it is then I guess.

 

To Prot, FlamingDeth, Petey, Valkenhayn, and The Unseen: Thanks for taking the effort to contribute to the conversation. I appreciate the perspective, in addition to the succinct conclusion about the core issue: access to a force-multiplier of that magnitude must surely have an impact on both the balance and viability of the rest of the codex.

[MARK0SIAN]

Would it make much difference if you changed his aura to reroll all hits OR all wounds but you could choose which at the start of each shooting phase? It would keep his aura unique and give you some tactical decisions to make but would it actually make any difference in allowing other units to be brought up to par?

[Ishagu]

There's no evidence whatsoever that units in the codex are weak because of some aura balancing. A few very specific options had point increases at the start of 8th edition, but multiple other units have seen point decreases since. Many units are also the same cost across factions. If the codex was being balanced around Guilliman a SM Predator would cost more than a Death Guard Predator - It doesn't.

 

Astartes lack good strategems, relics, Warlord traits, chapter tactics and psychic powers.

 

I think some of you are looking for something to blame for the codex. The fact is that it's suffering from 1st to arrive syndrome and nothing more.

[MajorNese]

Would it make much difference if you changed his aura to reroll all hits OR all wounds but you could choose which at the start of each shooting phase? It would keep his aura unique and give you some tactical decisions to make but would it actually make any difference in allowing other units to be brought up to par?

In that case, the HQ tax captain/CM would take care of the to-hit roll, and Gman would stick to to-wound. That would equal a potential slight points increase, but would not change the core issue.

 

The core issue is that the to-wound roll is a much stronger buff than the to-hit roll. With rerolls happening before modifiers, rerolling all failed to-hit rolls means just rerolling 2s except for units with lower BS (damaged vehicles, automated weapons), resulting in an increase in firepower of just 14% over just rerolling 1s. Negative to-hit modifiers mean it may require a 5+ to hit, but as it was not failed before modifiers, still only 1s and 2s can be rerolled. Which is a hard cap on how much this buff actually helps.

 

In comparison, the to-wound roll is rarely as good as the to-hit roll, and rarely modified (unlike the to-hit roll). Wounding on a 5+ means rerolling 4/6 of the results, not just 1/6 (lt.) or 2/6 (CM to-hit). Which makes heavy bolters/assault cannons no-brainer allrounder weapons, increasing their output by 66% against those targets they were not intended to take down. That kind of increase is usually extremely limited, but as an Astartes aura, it can be used on a considerable number and variety of units.

 

Except for this buff, Gman is not game-breakingly efficient - an expensive swiss army knife that will rarely be used to the full potential. But, as mentioned, if all units he can buff were already efficient without him, they would be clearly broken with him. If it were limited to CM and LT aura combined, it would be possible to balance units for it without screwing over all other chapters. But with GW rarely changing profiles, I guess they will only do things via points adjustments.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

There's no evidence whatsoever that units in the codex are weak because of some aura balancing. A few very specific options had point increases at the start of 8th edition, but multiple other units have seen point decreases since. Many units are also the same cost across factions. If the codex was being balanced around Guilliman a SM Predator would cost more than a Death Guard Predator - It doesn't.

 

Astartes lack good strategems, relics, Warlord traits, chapter tactics and psychic powers.

 

I think some of you are looking for something to blame for the codex. The fact is that it's suffering from 1st to arrive syndrome and nothing more.

GW balances units and weapons that are reported as broken or where empirical data from major events show they're broken. When people start winning GTs with armies based around Guilliman supporting three Predators, *then* they'll fiddle with the point cost.

 

Sometimes I honestly wonder about you.

[Ishagu]

 

There's no evidence whatsoever that units in the codex are weak because of some aura balancing. A few very specific options had point increases at the start of 8th edition, but multiple other units have seen point decreases since. Many units are also the same cost across factions. If the codex was being balanced around Guilliman a SM Predator would cost more than a Death Guard Predator - It doesn't.

 

Astartes lack good strategems, relics, Warlord traits, chapter tactics and psychic powers.

 

I think some of you are looking for something to blame for the codex. The fact is that it's suffering from 1st to arrive syndrome and nothing more.

GW balances units and weapons that are reported as broken or where empirical data from major events show they're broken. When people start winning GTs with armies based around Guilliman supporting three Predators, *then* they'll fiddle with the point cost.

 

Sometimes I honestly wonder about you.

Yes. And those armies aren't winning anything. That's exactly my point. People are suggesting nerfs for something which isn't overpowered.

 

Or do you live in an alternative reality where the Ultramarines are dominating the meta?

 

By your exact statement your stance must be one of Guilliman and the rest of the codex being underpowered?

[PeteySödes]

The only talk of nerfs were discussion how we could decouple Gman from the greater imperium balance.

 

Your post posited that Gman isnt as good as everyone says but a lot of people have at least given good points as to why he absolutely is. As for meta dominating, ultras are dominating the Astartes meta, that’s pretty clear.

 

They’re not dominating the tourney meta at large atm but when they did they affected every flavor of marines. That’s why it matters and that’s why it’s talked about.

 

I don’t think anyone is making posters and signs to nerf Gman atm but you have to know something is going to have to give when this dex gets closer. That’s what what the concern is.

[Panzer]

As for meta dominating, ultras are dominating the Astartes meta, that’s pretty clear.

 

 

I wouldn't even go that far. Deathwatch and Blood Angels are up there as well and the Crimson Fists Dakka Centurion list is scary as hell too. None of them using Guilliman.