Is Guilliman really as good as people perceive him to be?

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

 

 

As for meta dominating, ultras are dominating the Astartes meta, that’s pretty clear.

 

I wouldn't even go that far. Deathwatch and Blood Angels are up there as well and the Crimson Fists Dakka Centurion list is scary as hell too. None of them using Guilliman.

I think Petey is referring to simply Codex: SM as a book, not all units with the Astartes keyword.

 

I have yet to see a Crimson Fists Dakka list at a GT, but then again I haven't been looking for one. I have only seen it posited as a theory or test.

[PeteySödes]

I think Petey is referring to simply Codex: SM as a book, not all units with the Astartes keyword.

 

I have yet to see a Crimson Fists Dakka list at a GT, but then again I haven't been looking for one. I have only seen it posited as a theory or test.

Yea definately, I should have been more clear and less hyperbolic. Seconded for the fists, it’s one that I hear talked about a ton but haven’t seen.

 

A great white buffalo. Does it exist? I like to think so, the world would be a more magical place.

[Panzer]

I've seen it played on bigger tournaments already and it is really strong. Due lack of properly painted Centurions probably more of an underdog list currently and I'm not completely sure on how much it depends on getting the first turn either.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Mostly what I see here in terms of complaints appear to stem from jealousy - the Daemon Primarchs are just as powerful.

[Panzer]

Daemon Primarchs would be as powerful if they could survive turn 1...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Depends on terrain and what they’re up against.

[PeteySödes]

Daemon Primarchs would be as powerful if they could survive turn 1...

 

This 100%, if they were sub 10 wounds then it'd be a different game.

[Ishagu]

They have insane stats however. The Daemon Primarchs are giant monsters, not really a comparative unit beyond the Primarch title. Guilliman is a commander. Mortarion and Magnus are big, flying monsters with psychic powers.

 

We'll probably see more of them in future anyways now that the Castellan is reduced to a non issue.

[PeteySödes]

Demon Primarchs were brought up by those arguing your point, not against it.

[Ishagu]

I'm not arguing I'm agreeing. Is it not obvious?

[PeteySödes]

I'm not arguing I'm agreeing. Is it not obvious?

 

Yea totally, I was just gently nudging away from them as it seemed like a tiny strawman was being built. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Daemon Primarchs aren’t a straw man. We don’t see G lists winning majors any more. I’m sure if another loyalist Primarch is ever released he will be equally powerful in its own way.

[PeteySödes]

Daemon Primarchs aren’t a straw man. We don’t see G lists winning majors any more. I’m sure if another loyalist Primarch is ever released he will be equally powerful in its own way.

 

I guess I'm confused as to what you're arguing and who you are arguing with then. 

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I would remind you that the OP posited the following:

 

- "Is Guilliman as good as he is perceived" - He later adjusted this to say "Perceived by the dakka community"

 

- "Lists with Guilliman don't actually perform better than Astartes lists without, to any notable degree" - OP then goes on to state that based on his cherry-picked data, Guilliman is balanced based on his buffing power, respective proportionately, to other buffing HQ choices.

 

-"So, in theory and in practice Guilliman isn't an auto take once you break down the pros and cons." - OP then states that he isn't an auto take in an Ultra-based list, but based on the point above, he is marginal in comparison to other choices.

 

Mostly what I see here in terms of complaints appear to stem from jealousy - the Daemon Primarchs are just as powerful.

 

Daemon Primarchs aren’t a straw man. We don’t see G lists winning majors any more. I’m sure if another loyalist Primarch is ever released he will be equally powerful in its own way.

 

You then go on to state the above, which, frankly, has nothing to do with the conversation. The daemon primarchs aren't strong for the same reasons Guilliman is, they fulfill different roles on the battlefield. Nobody in the thread is complaining, nor is jealously the root of their opinions. This thread has a handful of folks trying to have a discussion based on data in relation to the questions OP asked. 

 

Where is the disconnect then? I'm not certain, but I can make a few guesses...

 

1) Language. Words have different meanings to different people. OP. Good. Strong. Weak. Mandatory. Competitive. For every person, the above words have similar but slightly different definitions. Those varying definitions can make it difficult, in text, to have a discussion based on subjectivity. To me, overpowered, in this context, is in reference to top tier competitive play - and I believe Ishagu meant the same thing. In that regard, him and I agree. We haven't seen Bobby G at the pinnacle in some time. His reign of terror was the product of two things: lower costs on a handful of efficient units that have now been nerfed (himself included), AND when he was competing against a field of Index armies. The meta of mid-2017 and mid 2019 are completely different in terms of power level. This leads me to my next point...

 

2) Perspective. Every person has a different perspective and experience level. If that is the case, how can we possibly use our own personal anecdotes to contribute to the conversation, when we all have differing perspectives? We can't. Its why we should use data from the competitive scene to make the argument, as its the most objective thing we have. It's also important to have perspective on when he was overpowered. His hayday (as a unit) was from July 2017 until November 2017. He went from fighting against a field of Index armies and being un-nerfed, to a field of 7 Codex armies and a Chapter Approved nerf (Including the release of both Eldar and IG). It was at this point his "overpowered tier status" began to decline, and continued to do so to where he is now.

 

I think its important to look at what was originally asked, and what is being said now then, that we understand where we are all coming from to where we are now.

 

-Guilliman at one point was overpowered in a general competitive sense, but this has not been the case for close to 18 months.

 

-Guilliman is still a VERY strong choice, and I would argue he is mandatory in the 2k format for a mono-Ultramarines build.

 

-His buffing capability is so strong, that he makes playing any other mono-faction Codex: Space Marines chapter, other than Ultramarines, a poor choice. If you want to play a Codex: Space Marines list, NOT soup, you should be playing Ultramarines with Guilliman. It is without a doubt the strongest choice.

 

-Some of the posters in the thread have posited that, based on the above, and how strong Guilliman is as a force multiplier, that he has had an adverse effect on the rest of Codex: Space Marines. His strength - against the remainder of the codex - is undeniable. 

 

Accusing people of being jealous, complaining, or otherwise being emotional while discussing data in perspective is disingenuous and goes against the guidelines of the forum.

 

If I made the following statement: all Chapter selections in Codex: Space Marines should be equally competitively viable. Most people (Space Marine players or not) would agree with that sentiment. Nobody wants to see codices where one faction is clearly the strongest.

 

What if I made the following statement: 2 exceptionally (and equally) skilled pilots are going to participate in a premier-level 2k points GT, one will be playing Mono-Ultramarines with Bobby G, and the other will be playing Mono-<insert Non-UM C:SM Chapter>. You cannot, in good conscience, tell me that they are both equipped with the same tools to win, and will put up the same results. 

 

I am tempted to parse the data for the Top 16 for the last 12 months of high-level GTs to illustrate this with data, but frankly, after my last couple efforts to introduce data to this discussion, I was met with trolling. 

 

Simply put-

 

Codex: Space Marines is overstuffed with point-inefficient units. Mediocre survivability coupled with poor damage output. Guilliman helps solve these problems more than any other unit in the Codex.

 

I would remind you that the OP posited the following:

 

- "Is Guilliman as good as he is perceived" - He later adjusted this to say "Perceived by the dakka community"

 

- "Lists with Guilliman don't actually perform better than Astartes lists without, to any notable degree" - OP then goes on to state that based on his cherry-picked data, Guilliman is balanced based on his buffing power, respective proportionately, to other buffing HQ choices.

 

-"So, in theory and in practice Guilliman isn't an auto take once you break down the pros and cons." - OP then states that he insn't an auto take, but based on the point above, he is marginal in comparison to other choices.

 

Edit: I wanted to add that I don't think the viability of something in the competitive scene should be the sole metric of whether or not it can WIN a major event.  Units/lists that consistently put up above average winrates should be the metric to whether or not something is Good/Viable.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Look at the top armies from the recent BAO - no Guilliman in sight. Sure he’s great but not good enough to make the top tables in the final rounds on a consistent basis.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Look at the top armies from the recent BAO - no Guilliman in sight. Sure he’s great but not good enough to make the top tables in the final rounds on a consistent basis.

 

I give up.

[The Unseen]

I'd say it's time to, what do you call it, strike and fade? here Vyper.

It's pretty obvious the people arguing here aren't going to be convinced using anything approaching rational discussion.

 

But before I abadon ship here, just a quick note, THE DAEMON PRIMARCHS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH BALANCING GUILLIMAN, TAKE YOUR RED HERRING AND GET OUT.

They are in entirely different factions that play completely different to vanilla astartes, and perform entirely different functions in said army.

Just because they all are a "Primarch" doesn't mean theyre directly comparable on the tabletop.

Mortarion and Magnus are huge beatsticks with psychic powers which are almost never buffs on other units, but instead on themselves to make them even bigger sticks or throwing mortal wounds around and can't hide behind anything smaller than a damn skyscraper, Gman is a huge force multiplier who can hide behind literally every friendly unit who happens to be a fairly potent beatstick as icing.

*ahem*, that is all.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t see how you can’t say it’s not possible to compare Primarchs honestly.

[Ishagu]

I'd say it's time to, what do you call it, strike and fade? here Vyper.

It's pretty obvious the people arguing here aren't going to be convinced using anything approaching rational discussion.

 

But before I abadon ship here, just a quick note, THE DAEMON PRIMARCHS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH BALANCING GUILLIMAN, TAKE YOUR RED HERRING AND GET OUT.

They are in entirely different factions that play completely different to vanilla astartes, and perform entirely different functions in said army.

Just because they all are a "Primarch" doesn't mean theyre directly comparable on the tabletop.

Mortarion and Magnus are huge beatsticks with psychic powers which are almost never buffs on other units, but instead on themselves to make them even bigger sticks or throwing mortal wounds around and can't hide behind anything smaller than a damn skyscraper, Gman is a huge force multiplier who can hide behind literally every friendly unit who happens to be a fairly potent beatstick as icing.

*ahem*, that is all.

I'm fairness Abaddon and Cawl stand out even more

[Dracos]

This discussion is why I stay in the Ravenspire most the time. ;) .... and seems to pretty much ran its course.

[UnkyHamHam]

Very well laid out Vyper. I came into this discussion, begrudgingly, on the side of Ishagu. Having just come from a GT where I ran Guilliman this weekend and going 1-4, I wanted to believe him.

 

However, after reading your breakdown, I'm fairly convinced of your perspective. I am just, sadly, a mediocre player who needs more practice. I'd have done bad with Eldar or knights and guard too.

 

PS... For the record, I'd just ignore those couple of folk who are broken records. They seem to always be in a different conversation in their head and speaking nonsense. Trust me, I've tried before too.

[Ishagu]

Very well laid out Vyper. I came into this discussion, begrudgingly, on the side of Ishagu. Having just come from a GT where I ran Guilliman this weekend and going 1-4, I wanted to believe him.

 

However, after reading your breakdown, I'm fairly convinced of your perspective. I am just, sadly, a mediocre player who needs more practice. I'd have done bad with Eldar or knights and guard too.

 

PS... For the record, I'd just ignore those couple of folk who are broken records. They seem to always be in a different conversation in their head and speaking nonsense. Trust me, I've tried before too.

Lol why? Your experience is very much a reality. Even with Guilliman's aura, the army is still far away from being truly competitive.

DW perform better that Ultras with RG.

 

The codex is full of mediocre units and RG doesn't do enough to turn it around.

What keeps getting forgotten is the fact that RG is always his own seperate detachment. By the time you unlock a Battalion you often find you've spent nearly 600 points on characters.

[happyslugger]

Daemon Primarchs would be as powerful if they could survive turn 1...

 

This is possibly one of the reasons Gman gets so much stick.

 

He isn't that much cheaper than Morty. 

 

He has great usability and his reroll aura is fabulous.  He can hide and not be targeted, can take his vitrix guard that cost peanuts compared to deathshroud, has a 2+/3++ (although 3++ has been scrapped elsewhere).  He provides additional CP and to top it off..he can get back up should you manage to delete him (which doesn't happen often).

 

I personally believe all Primarchs should be 10+ wounds and cap all invulnerable saves (bar storm shields, etc) to 4+.

 

I am not hating on Gman as my son plays UM and I have no issues facing him - he is a pain, but he should be.  But you do get a lot for the 400 pts compared to say Morty...

 

:-)

 

I would also argue that a mono UM army with Gman will 9/10 beat my mono BA army....I hope BA get a Gman equiv in the not too distant future LOL.

[MegaVolt87]

As far as I can tell with marines in general, mostly average units that are over costed in points. The outliers have a high points tax, unlike the other factions who are under costed to varying degrees. Having mediocre units over pointed is just bad design.

[Ishagu]

Remember that Ork boys, as an example, got a point hike in the new codex but exploded in popularity. They have great stratagems and amazing Clan rules. This is what Marines lack more.

Same thing happened with Knights - no one was running them pre codex and they weren't reduced in cost.

 

I really think that after the next book a lot of the complaints will be resolved.... Or they'll focus on Primaris and we'll have a whole new set of complaints lol