Is Guilliman really as good as people perceive him to be?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There will always be some complaints .

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think the reason that this thread doesn't really seem to resolve anything has more to do with it asking the wrong questions. In the five pages we've had so far, no one has said that RG is overpowered at this point... to be fair it has been argued that he is the best choice in the codex, but even those arguments point out that the majority of the codex is bad to mediocre. 

 

The real questions that this topic brings up seems to be:

 

1. Do you think that Guilliman's aura is having a negative on the power level of marines in general?

 

2. How do we establish if a unit is OP or not?

 

 

IMO, I think that some marine units were nerfed because of Guilliman, and GW seems to overreach with nerfs while they are much more measured with buffs.

 

As far as the second question, judging force multipliers is tough. I don't think top table appearances is a great argument for a unit being OP, for example in fifth edition Eldar struggled but the farseer was largely the same as it is now the big difference being that the codex sucked. If you look at top eights in 8th farseers have been in most major top 8s (I'd actually be willing to bet all of them lol) but doom, guide and most of the staples largely work the same (fortune got nerfed).  

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The reason this thread is meandering around is because the OP is arguing a position held by folks on Dakka (as he freely admits)...and this ain't Dakka. It's a...geographic? locational?...strawman.

[Marshal Rohr]

The reason this thread is meandering around is because the OP is arguing a position held by folks on Dakka (as he freely admits)...and this ain't Dakka. It's a...geographic? locational?...strawman.

 

Online 40k communities are pretty siloed. 

[Dracos]

I’ve asked this before. Take RG’s off the board. Then spend his points on the best combination of HQ and unite available. Is the army more or less effective. If less, then RG is as effective as he is perceived to be .... if more so .... well, then I’d ask why are you playing with Bobby in a competitive game?

 

 

I’m sure they’ll have your BA Primarch in production soon .... oh you don’t play Heresy? My bad, too soon? ;)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think how a faction fares at major events is one of the best outliers to determine if a particular unit is OP. The SM codex is mid tier at best and I think most will agree with this assessment. As far as local games if you’re struggling against a friend who brings RG just ask them to not use him all the time. Is he truly holding down the rest of the codex... not really imho. GW has already adjusted points for certain units that greatly benefit from his auras. Making him have more than nine wounds and/or debuffing his auras even with a drop in points is not a good solution - people will just take Calgar or a Captain upgraded to a Chapter Master and Lieutenant... so he’d have to be less points than they combination.

 

I think if another loyalist Primarch is released this edition then we’d have a true metric to compare him against and if the former is really good I imagine it’ll draw some hate here mostly from people that don’t play that chapter while being staunchly defended by those who do.

 

Long winded diatribes can be too long to read... succinctly written reasoning will go a lot farther.

[Ishagu]

To ask for nerfs is unreasonable. To say he should be more than 10 wounds when Abaddon/Cawl/Daemon Princes/Celestine have a larger visual profile is also unreasonable. To say he is the reason for mediocre units... Yep, you guessed it. Unreasonable.

 

When the nerfs came Astartes were one of a few armies with a codex and were probably too powerful comparatively to other factions. Since then various units have dropped so much that the army is actually cheaper all round.

 

I'm still surprised that people are failing to realise what makes other armies better. Here's a hint: It's not just the unit datasheets and point costs.

[MegaVolt87]

I am not meaning RG is the reason for mediocre units. I mean the mediocre units should be discounted to reflect their mediocre rules. If they get better ones that increase their power significantly, sure up the points. Having average units over pointed is bad design, either they get better via rules and actually worth the current points, or nothing changes and they get a points cut simple. RG is a good LOW unit, but seems really amazing because the rest of the faction is hitting mid tier for power due to rules + points of everything else at best. 

[happyslugger]

I’ve asked this before. Take RG’s off the board. Then spend his points on the best combination of HQ and unite available. Is the army more or less effective. If less, then RG is as effective as he is perceived to be .... if more so .... well, then I’d ask why are you playing with Bobby in a competitive game?

 

 

I’m sure they’ll have your BA Primarch in production soon .... oh you don’t play Heresy? My bad, too soon? ;)

Love the banter...but I don't like the 30k primarch model anyway lol