BSB Speculation

[ERJAK]

Another reason for the stronger interpretation to be RAI, I'm pretty sure of, although I haven't 100% seen the full wording.

 

Intercessor cherubs give a dice that must be used that phase when expended. However, as far as I can tell, it does not give them an act of faith.

 

So you could activate the cherub, use a Miracle dice somewhere else, and then have a miracle dice you can't use.

 

Also, pop cherub, roll terrible dice, fire unit, use better dice from your pool because you have to, also lose dice.

Edited November 21, 2019 by ERJAK

[ValourousHeart]

You know what fascinates most about this whole debate.  All of these arguments could have been made about the Leman Russ or Exorcist back with the index, or the IG codex, or the beta codex in CA18.  But they didn't.  It is only now 8 days before we get our codex that 1 person over on Dakka decides to get confused about how variable shot variable wound weapons work.

 

 

Can GW please write a book that doesnt have arguments between RAW, persevered RAI, the phraseology they use and just some sheer stupid errors.....

 

I mean the books not even out yet and we're already finding errors with it!

 

There is enough to criticize GW about, but this stupidity is squarely on the shoulders of the players.  First off most of the players haven't read the codex.  At best they have only looked at a cherry picked sections of the rules.  At worst they have taken a 2nd or 3rd hand account of someone who has only looked at a cherry picked selection of the rules.  With all I've seen so far with the cherry picked rules I've found and the bombastic declarations of people who have spent less than 5 minutes with hopefully the codex, but more realistically with a paused youtube video squinting to read the text, who claim that they have mastered all of its secretes, all I can tell you with any certainty is that most countries in the English speaking world have a reading comprehension problem.  Because they insists on injecting their thoughts and opinions in to a text in order to be the first to give their assessment to the internet, without first taking a moment to read the text without their ego in order to actually understand what it says.

[CaptainMarsh]

If anyone wants to read the full Acts of Faith/Miracle Dice mechanic, they have the full page on BoLS. I didn't want to post the image because I *still* don't know how to spoiler items but here we go:



EDIT: Notably, the most similar mechanic (Disciples of Tzeentch in AoS, which is worded exactly the same and has the same list of specific rolls with addition and was used as a comparison in the WHC article revealing MD and the new AoF system) allows you to use multiple dice.

Edited November 22, 2019 by CaptainMarsh

[Mekhitar]

I was expecting to only be able to change a single die. If it’s multiple, that’s fantastic news!

[Lemondish]

If that's the consensus position, then a stand corrected. Apologies if it led others astray. Misinformation is never good. Sorry, all.

[ERJAK]

If that's the consensus position, then a stand corrected. Apologies if it led others astray. Misinformation is never good. Sorry, all.

You're not necessarily wrong, it could be either, or, or neither interpretation still. It's just not something any of us can be confident about with GW's interesting take on rules writing.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Looks like we won't be swimming in Miracle Dice, and it might be very swingy depending on how things go.

[ERJAK]

Looks like we won't be swimming in Miracle Dice, and it might be very swingy depending on how things go.

I just desperately wanna autokill something T7, no invul, with an exorcist. Get a decent pool of dice (10 or so 2+s with three plus 5s or 6s) with an imagifier and triumph, AoF as many shots as possible to hits, Strat all the hits to wound, AoF again with triumph, put an unnecessarily overkill amount of damage onto a rhino or flyer.

 

Oh wait, does triumph only work on infantry? Hmm...

Edited November 22, 2019 by ERJAK

[CaptainMarsh]

If that's the consensus position, then a stand corrected. Apologies if it led others astray. Misinformation is never good. Sorry, all.

No reason to apologize. We had a very healthy (if perhaps a little heated) discussion regarding a mechanic that is new to us. It is important to discuss it so we can take our conclusions forward!

[Dread]

I, myself, am just glad to get an official codex and all the cool plastics. Win or lose, I plan on having fun with them, painting, converting and playing. The last 5 games I've played have been against admech and Salamanders using my necrons, eldar, dark eldar and black Legion with only winning once because of tactical objectives (DE) but each time my armies were decimated model wise. So since I'm already on the down side, I'm looking forward to learning all the new tricks we'll get to try out. In this case, until I have the codex in my hands, discussion I will not have. I do enjoy reading all of your speculations tho, the positive and negative. So then I'll join in on the discussions with suggestions, pros and cons. Happy gaming everyone!

[Lemondish]

I'm really liking these Seraphim. That Deadly Descent Stratagem on a large squad coming down turn 2 seems like a great screen clearing tool. Since it all happens at the end of the movement phase, and I decide the order, I think that might allow one to clear chaff and drop a unit in the gap created.

 

Perhaps go with some hand flamers and an inferno pistols to make use of holy Trinity to really pump up the damage against T4? Plus, with 18" pistols you could string a line of Seraphim back to a Canoness for some buffs.

 

Just need to find the right partner to drop in the gap created...

[RolandTHTG]

Maybe the Zeryphim? It's probably the best way to make sure they hit a squad where their power swords actually matter. 

[ERJAK]

I'm really liking these Seraphim. That Deadly Descent Stratagem on a large squad coming down turn 2 seems like a great screen clearing tool. Since it all happens at the end of the movement phase, and I decide the order, I think that might allow one to clear chaff and drop a unit in the gap created.

 

Perhaps go with some hand flamers and an inferno pistols to make use of holy Trinity to really pump up the damage against T4? Plus, with 18" pistols you could string a line of Seraphim back to a Canoness for some buffs.

 

Just need to find the right partner to drop in the gap created...

Generally speaking you don't want to use holy trinity on anything but HF retributors, just due to the way it all maths out.

 

That said, even without HT, the seraphim drop strat is brilliant and has a lot of very clever applications.

[ZaelART]

This is a great time to pick up sisters, I'm personally looking at this as a great modeling and painting opportunity to bring me back into the hobby. Being able to work on plastic sisters after so long to put together an epic and fluffy Ordo Hereticus Purgation Force will be super fun.

[Lemondish]

 

I'm really liking these Seraphim. That Deadly Descent Stratagem on a large squad coming down turn 2 seems like a great screen clearing tool. Since it all happens at the end of the movement phase, and I decide the order, I think that might allow one to clear chaff and drop a unit in the gap created.

 

Perhaps go with some hand flamers and an inferno pistols to make use of holy Trinity to really pump up the damage against T4? Plus, with 18" pistols you could string a line of Seraphim back to a Canoness for some buffs.

 

Just need to find the right partner to drop in the gap created...

Generally speaking you don't want to use holy trinity on anything but HF retributors, just due to the way it all maths out.

 

That said, even without HT, the seraphim drop strat is brilliant and has a lot of very clever applications.

I don't think the math actually backs you up here. To clarify, I've suggested combining Deadly Descent with Holy Trinity. All of which happens in the movement phase. As such, Retributors wouldn't be competing in damage with them that phase because they aren't allowed to shoot in the movement phase the way Seraphim can with DD. That's why the combo seems great in my eyes - you're adding lethality to a unit coming in from reserves without any opportunity cost outside the CP expenditure.

 

It's not like it blocks me from using it on Retributors later in my turn and I like the idea of str3 flamers and str4 bolt pistols gaining +1 to wound.

 

But now begs the question, can you use Stratagems that are used in the shooting phase even if it's not that phase, just "as if" the shooting phase? I've never had much cause to think on that.

 

Edit: Nevermind, found the FAQ entry that says I can't do that.

 

Just feel sour now.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Lemondish

[EmperorGTank]

So I know until an FAQ comes out the discussion on this is moot, but just as an FYI, a Miniwargaming batrep just came out detailing the new codex in action (and yes I know they are not the paragons of 40k or always correct with rules) and MD were being used to only replace one dice that was rolled per hit or wound or whatever. I am not saying that is correct (honestly I really do hope it is not and multiple MD can be used per AoF other than perhaps the damage roll as described in many comments), but I just thought I would bring some attention to it. There were I'm sure other rules errors in there but again just putting it out there.

 

On a more positive note the Exorcists were pretty devastating, one took out a Lord Discordant pretty quickly, they are definitely far more reliable anti tank! I know 170 is hefty but I really think one can reliably get rid of most light vehicles and even some LRBT stuff in around 2 turns, 1 if you focus at least 2 on one target and use the stratagem! Just think its much easier to make their points back now which I always had trouble doing since 8th came out!

[taikishi]

Assuming no Miracle dice used to keep things simple.

 

10 Seraphim, Bloody Rose convcition for increased AP with pistols, using both stratagems. 8 Seraphim with two bolt pistols (including superior), 1 Seraphim with two hand flamers, 1 Seraphim with two inferno pistols. Shooting MEQ:

 

Bolt Pistols: 73.85% chance of killing 1-5 MEQ.

50.73% chance of killing 2-4 MEQ

Mode: 2 (1,767 / 10,000 results)

 

Hand Flamers: 73.09% chance of killing 0-2 MEQ

Mode: 0 (3,067 / 10,000)

 

Inferno Pistols: 98.56% chance of killing 1-2 MEQ

Mode: 2 (7,958 / 10,000)

 

 

10 Seraphim, Bloody Rose conviction, using only the DD stratagem. No change in equipment, same targets:

 

Bolt Pistols: 82.82% chance of killing 0-4 MEQ

53.43% chance of killing 1-3 MEQ.

Mode: 2 (2,119 / 10,000)

 

Hand Flamers: 85.15% chance of killing 0-2 MEQ

Mode: 0 (4,545 / 10,000)

 

Inferno Pistols: 98.56% chance of killing 1-2 MEQ

Mode: 2 (7,958 / 10,000)

 

-------------

 

Inferno pistols don't benefit from Holy Trinity against screens unless those screens are T5+, thus why the numbers are the same. 

 

Against MEQ, you're spending a CP to kill maybe 1 more Marine with a bolt pistol or a 1/8 chance of killing an extra Marine with a hand flamer.

 

I know the numbers are better against T3, but I'm not going to spend all night simming against every possible save type. Either way, this doesn't seem like a very good investment. Even with averages, you're looking at killing 4.64 MEQ with Holy Trinity, or 3.61 without it. And these numbers require Bloody Rose as your Order Conviction. Without Bloody Rose, the numbers fall as such:

 

Holy Trinity - 3.46

No HT - 2.78

Edited November 23, 2019 by taikishi

[Mekhitar]

It’s only one more marine, but it’s also a 20+% dmg increase - relatively speaking. And... you save a few points? Ok now I am stretching.

[CaptainMarsh]

So I know until an FAQ comes out the discussion on this is moot, but just as an FYI, a Miniwargaming batrep just came out detailing the new codex in action (and yes I know they are not the paragons of 40k or always correct with rules) and MD were being used to only replace one dice that was rolled per hit or wound or whatever. I am not saying that is correct (honestly I really do hope it is not and multiple MD can be used per AoF other than perhaps the damage roll as described in many comments), but I just thought I would bring some attention to it. There were I'm sure other rules errors in there but again just putting it out there.

 

On a more positive note the Exorcists were pretty devastating, one took out a Lord Discordant pretty quickly, they are definitely far more reliable anti tank! I know 170 is hefty but I really think one can reliably get rid of most light vehicles and even some LRBT stuff in around 2 turns, 1 if you focus at least 2 on one target and use the stratagem! Just think its much easier to make their points back now which I always had trouble doing since 8th came out!

MWG has such a reputation that them using it that way only makes me certain of the opposite interpretation (which is backed up by the actual wording and the similar ability that is referenced by GW being used in such a manner). XD

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

"One or more" is rather clear, indeed.

[Lemondish]

Assuming no Miracle dice used to keep things simple.

 

10 Seraphim, Bloody Rose convcition for increased AP with pistols, using both stratagems. 8 Seraphim with two bolt pistols (including superior), 1 Seraphim with two hand flamers, 1 Seraphim with two inferno pistols. Shooting MEQ:

 

Bolt Pistols: 73.85% chance of killing 1-5 MEQ.

50.73% chance of killing 2-4 MEQ

Mode: 2 (1,767 / 10,000 results)

 

Hand Flamers: 73.09% chance of killing 0-2 MEQ

Mode: 0 (3,067 / 10,000)

 

Inferno Pistols: 98.56% chance of killing 1-2 MEQ

Mode: 2 (7,958 / 10,000)

 

 

10 Seraphim, Bloody Rose conviction, using only the DD stratagem. No change in equipment, same targets:

 

Bolt Pistols: 82.82% chance of killing 0-4 MEQ

53.43% chance of killing 1-3 MEQ.

Mode: 2 (2,119 / 10,000)

 

Hand Flamers: 85.15% chance of killing 0-2 MEQ

Mode: 0 (4,545 / 10,000)

 

Inferno Pistols: 98.56% chance of killing 1-2 MEQ

Mode: 2 (7,958 / 10,000)

 

-------------

 

Inferno pistols don't benefit from Holy Trinity against screens unless those screens are T5+, thus why the numbers are the same.

 

Against MEQ, you're spending a CP to kill maybe 1 more Marine with a bolt pistol or a 1/8 chance of killing an extra Marine with a hand flamer.

 

I know the numbers are better against T3, but I'm not going to spend all night simming against every possible save type. Either way, this doesn't seem like a very good investment. Even with averages, you're looking at killing 4.64 MEQ with Holy Trinity, or 3.61 without it. And these numbers require Bloody Rose as your Order Conviction. Without Bloody Rose, the numbers fall as such:

 

Holy Trinity - 3.46

No HT - 2.78

You did all this work, and I'm appreciative, but my premise was flawed from the start. I had been thinking I could use the Descent Stratagem alongside the Holy Trinity in the movement phase, which would have meant the comparison with any other unit is irrelevant because they wouldn't be competing for use. Turns out this isn't possible, so the math done by ignoring the very specific scenario I described served to argue against a point nobody was making.

[1126PLL]

"One or more" is rather clear, indeed.

So is "a single roll" to be fair.

 

That's rather the problem, innit? Both sides are clear.

[ERJAK]

 

"One or more" is rather clear, indeed.

So is "a single roll" to be fair.

 

That's rather the problem, innit? Both sides are clear.

 

Eh...considering the word 'roll' has no definition in the rules, I think that one is a little less clear.

 

So I know until an FAQ comes out the discussion on this is moot, but just as an FYI, a Miniwargaming batrep just came out detailing the new codex in action (and yes I know they are not the paragons of 40k or always correct with rules) and MD were being used to only replace one dice that was rolled per hit or wound or whatever. I am not saying that is correct (honestly I really do hope it is not and multiple MD can be used per AoF other than perhaps the damage roll as described in many comments), but I just thought I would bring some attention to it. There were I'm sure other rules errors in there but again just putting it out there.

 

On a more positive note the Exorcists were pretty devastating, one took out a Lord Discordant pretty quickly, they are definitely far more reliable anti tank! I know 170 is hefty but I really think one can reliably get rid of most light vehicles and even some LRBT stuff in around 2 turns, 1 if you focus at least 2 on one target and use the stratagem! Just think its much easier to make their points back now which I always had trouble doing since 8th came out!

MWG has such a reputation that them using it that way only makes me certain of the opposite interpretation (which is backed up by the actual wording and the similar ability that is referenced by GW being used in such a manner). XD

 

WintersSEO was still scouting immolators so I wouldn't take these batreps as...anything really.

[taikishi]

 

You did all this work, and I'm appreciative, but my premise was flawed from the start. I had been thinking I could use the Descent Stratagem alongside the Holy Trinity in the movement phase, which would have meant the comparison with any other unit is irrelevant because they wouldn't be competing for use. Turns out this isn't possible, so the math done by ignoring the very specific scenario I described served to argue against a point nobody was making.

 

 

When I made my post, you hadn't made your edit yet (or it hadn't been shown on my side). Regardless, I was more illustrating the CP isn't worth what you're getting out of it.

Edited November 23, 2019 by taikishi

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

 

"One or more" is rather clear, indeed.

So is "a single roll" to be fair.

 

That's rather the problem, innit? Both sides are clear.

 

What on earth are you on about?