BSB Speculation

[Lemondish]

Oh, I already sent an e-mail myself. While I don't expect it to be an issue for me IRL- the three people who run tournaments in my area as well as myself all agree on this mechanic- I do absolutely understand why it is not the same for others. I would greatly enjoy an FAQ so as to settle it, even if I am certain of the rule and am playing it so. And if I am wrong, I would appreciate being corrected by GW.

 

I'm sure that's certainly a load off your mind. 

 

I'm in the opposite situation. I can tell you right now my gaming group will be basing their interpretation off the myriad of reviews that state it as one action alongside the argument that the attack sequence in the core rules is based on attacks being made one at a time. Therefore, the wording of this ability, in their eyes, suggests that you can only ever replace one die result for an action taken. To them it matches how attacks are resolved in the core rules irrespective of how many dice you're actively rolling as a matter of course. They will find solace in this position as this particular interpretation never loses efficacy or muddies up when facing an opponent like Raven Guard, or a mixed Toughness unit, or if you'd like to split fire, or fast roll dice for actions that aren't mentioned in the fast rolling sidebar, etc. A single dice replaced just always works with no questions about how to handle the impact with Acts of Faith.

 

I think ERJAK is absolutely right and insightful in that the fundamental breakdown here has to do with the concept of what a "roll" means in 40k. Some folks see a "roll" as the physical act of rolling dice. They would take a 5 battle sister squad with a couple storm bolters and fire 14 bolter shots in one clenched fist. For them, that's the roll that's being referred to when performing an Act of Faith. The fast rolling section in the core rulebook explains how they can make this roll all at once after all. To them, a roll is a roll. It is simply the act of tossing dice, distinct and separate from what those dice represent. 

 

For others, that roll is a representation of an action being taken. Given the attack sequence in the core rules is based on attacks being made one at a time, they view a dice roll as a surrogate for making that action. That same battle sister squad is making 14 individual rolls for those shots (this is actually per the rules after all), even if you've just conveniently thrown them all into one toss to speed up the game. It doesn't matter how many dice you've just scooped up into your hand, for them those 14 dice are 14 individual rolls and performing an Act of Faith lets you replace the result for but one of them. 

 

With the clean nature of the second interpretation having no awkward impact, outliers, or special handling for various situations, I can almost guarantee this will be the way my group interprets it, if only for ease of understanding. There's no questions on how it affects splitting fire, shooting at mixed toughness wounding, or shooting at units that gain unique defensive bonuses as their situations change. We would also avoid awkward interaction when used in situations where people often make use of fast rolling where it specifically isn't mentioned as allowed, like for armour saves or when determining the value of multiple variable damage weapon shots that have bypassed armour. We all fast roll armour saves when we can, and while this is certainly a "roll", it fundamentally isn't one the rules say you can really do. 

 

I really do want to start thinking about how I would game the rolls I can use this for, especially if I can substitute a handful of dice just because I'm eligible to pick them all up at once, but until there's clarity of language here I know my group would be at an impasse and the simpler solution right now is to just go with one replacement. In the meantime I'd like to just play, so I'll make use of the mechanic as such. 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Lemondish

[MoshJason]

How are we feeling about the bloody rose super Chainsword?

 

It's Str +1 ap-2 2 damage with +3 attacks

Which means that a BR Canoness using it has 8 Str 4 ap-3 2 damage attacks that hit on 2s rerolling 1s.

 

That's definitely not an eviscerator (and I am still salty that we lost our powerfist equivalent, since now even intercessors get a thunder hammer!) But it can be buffed higher?

 

For 1cp you can give the Canoness the warlord trait that is reroll charges and wounds, and having an Imagifier behind her makes her Str 5 rerolling wounds.

 

Then we figure if you are building a super melee army, you are likely to have the passion and a priest, so 9 attacks hitting on 2s rerolling 1s, and sixes add an additional attack? And I guess if you were really desperate, you could do the +1 to wound BR strat? Then she would be hitting almost like she was at Str 8. Against Marines you'd be wounding on 2s again, and against tanks you'd be wounding on 4s again, but also rerolling everything?

 

It's not like, the greatest thing ever, but I feel like she will absolutely shred any intercessors or troops she comes across. I am conflicted. Obvs it is super costly, but alongside some other melee units, she might still be able to be a wrecking ball?

Edited November 25, 2019 by MoshJason

[Lemondish]

How are we feeling about the bloody rose super Chainsword?

 

It's Str +1 ap-2 2 damage with +3 attacks

Which means that a BR Canoness using it has 8 Str 4 ap-3 2 damage attacks that hit on 2s rerolling 1s.

 

That's definitely not an eviscerator (and I am still salty that we lost our powerfist equivalent, since now even intercessors get a thunder hammer!) But it can be buffed higher?

 

For 1cp you can give the Canoness the warlord trait that is reroll charges and wounds, and having an Imagifier behind her makes her Str 5 rerolling wounds.

 

Then we figure if you are building a super melee army, you are likely to have the passion and a priest, so 9 attacks hitting on 2s rerolling 1s, and sixes add an additional attack? And I guess if you were really desperate, you could do the +1 to wound BR strat? Then she would be hitting almost like she was at Str 8. Against Marines you'd be wounding on 2s again, and against tanks you'd be wounding on 4s again, but also rerolling everything?

 

It's not like, the greatest thing ever, but I feel like she will absolutely shred any intercessors or troops she comes across. I am conflicted.

 

It looks like an absolute blast for a melee Canonness, and benefits from not really being a linchpin unit either. Most 2k lists will be running 2, maybe even 3 anyway, so committing resources towards one like that seems totally viable. 

[ERJAK]

 

 

Oh, I already sent an e-mail myself. While I don't expect it to be an issue for me IRL- the three people who run tournaments in my area as well as myself all agree on this mechanic- I do absolutely understand why it is not the same for others. I would greatly enjoy an FAQ so as to settle it, even if I am certain of the rule and am playing it so. And if I am wrong, I would appreciate being corrected by GW.

I'm sure that's certainly a load off your mind.

 

I'm in the opposite situation. I can tell you right now my gaming group will be basing their interpretation off the myriad of reviews that state it as one action alongside the argument that the attack sequence in the core rules is based on attacks being made one at a time. Therefore, the wording of this ability, in their eyes, suggests that you can only ever replace one die result for an action taken. To them it matches how attacks are resolved in the core rules irrespective of how many dice you're actively rolling as a matter of course. They will find solace in this position as this particular interpretation never loses efficacy or muddies up when facing an opponent like Raven Guard, or a mixed Toughness unit, or if you'd like to split fire, or fast roll dice for actions that aren't mentioned in the fast rolling sidebar, etc. A single dice replaced just always works with no questions about how to handle the impact with Acts of Faith.

 

I think ERJAK is absolutely right and insightful in that the fundamental breakdown here has to do with the concept of what a "roll" means in 40k. Some folks see a "roll" as the physical act of rolling dice. They would take a 5 battle sister squad with a couple storm bolters and fire 14 bolter shots in one clenched fist. For them, that's the roll that's being referred to when performing an Act of Faith. The fast rolling section in the core rulebook explains how they can make this roll all at once after all. To them, a roll is a roll. It is simply the act of tossing dice, distinct and separate from what those dice represent.

 

For others, that roll is a representation of an action being taken. Given the attack sequence in the core rules is based on attacks being made one at a time, they view a dice roll as a surrogate for making that action. That same battle sister squad is making 14 individual rolls for those shots (this is actually per the rules after all), even if you've just conveniently thrown them all into one toss to speed up the game. It doesn't matter how many dice you've just scooped up into your hand, for them those 14 dice are 14 individual rolls and performing an Act of Faith lets you replace the result for but one of them.

 

With the clean nature of the second interpretation having no awkward impact, outliers, or special handling for various situations, I can almost guarantee this will be the way my group interprets it, if only for ease of understanding. There's no questions on how it affects splitting fire, shooting at mixed toughness wounding, or shooting at units that gain unique defensive bonuses as their situations change. We would also avoid awkward interaction when used in situations where people often make use of fast rolling where it specifically isn't mentioned as allowed, like for armour saves or when determining the value of multiple variable damage weapon shots that have bypassed armour. We all fast roll armour saves when we can, and while this is certainly a "roll", it fundamentally isn't one the rules say you can really do.

 

I really do want to start thinking about how I would game the rolls I can use this for, especially if I can substitute a handful of dice just because I'm eligible to pick them all up at once, but until there's clarity of language here I know my group would be at an impasse and the simpler solution right now is to just go with one replacement. In the meantime I'd like to just play, so I'll make use of the mechanic as such.

Coming from dealing with this in AoS, I must say I'm more comfortable with using the system as it works for its nearest analogue. It doesn't have any complexity or awkwardness in Sigmar, you roll 9 shots against 9 different targets, you replace 9 dice. Easy peasy.

[Slasher956]

Ok.... the new points book... will it include SoB?  Codex units /points or Beta points... or even just the index points?

[tvih]

Doesn't really matter. It likely doesn't have the points at all unless the Codex points were finalized prior to CA being printed. They knew the release date for both so they wouldn't have put obsolete points in it. Regardless, the Codex is what we will go by, there's no need to buy CA for Sisters even if the points are there. After all it'd just duplicate the points cost content while having none of the other stuff.

[Lemondish]

Doesn't really matter. It likely doesn't have the points at all unless the Codex points were finalized prior to CA being printed. They knew the release date for both so they wouldn't have put obsolete points in it. Regardless, the Codex is what we will go by, there's no need to buy CA for Sisters even if the points are there. After all it'd just duplicate the points cost content while having none of the other stuff.

Correction, there's no need to buy CA for points for Sisters if that was the only reason you were planning to buy CA. The missions and everything else are still a draw, especially given how damn good the CA18 missions were. Best mission structure.

 

We also don't yet know what else the book will bring that might impact Sisters in some way...

 

Like how Cities of Death was a main part of CA18 and I'm still so salty those rules haven't become the baseline lol

[Slasher956]

Erm.. Kinda does in the fact that GW said that it would include everymodel.. So did gw miss speak and it won't include SoB or do they include obsolete points (and create confusion over for example PENGINES) or did it go to the printers at the same time as our new dex

 

 

On the other hand not really as Battlescribe will have the points for other people to check

[Lemondish]

Erm.. Kinda does in the fact that GW said that it would include everymodel.. So did gw miss speak and it won't include SoB or do they include obsolete points (and create confusion over for example PENGINES) or did it go to the printers at the same time as our new dex

 

 

On the other hand not really as Battlescribe will have the points for other people to check

[tvih]

I know GW can be quite incompetent at times but if they actually manage to publish conflicting point values in these two books, that's low even for them! At any rate, despite playing armies that DO get affected by the books I've no interest in getting the book. The points values will be found elsewhere, and the missions etc... well, the local gaming group will have copies to take a peek at anyway. Sick of paying for rules, in fact already regretting the Imperial Fists supplement I got today...

[Lemondish]

 

Coming from dealing with this in AoS, I must say I'm more comfortable with using the system as it works for its nearest analogue. It doesn't have any complexity or awkwardness in Sigmar, you roll 9 shots against 9 different targets, you replace 9 dice. Easy peasy.

 

 

Yeah, nobody here in my group has any experience with what truthfully amounts to a completely different game. A game with a completely different take on the same mechanic, mind you. Because of that lack of experience I doubt I could convince anybody to use that other game they don't know with rules they aren't familiar with as a guideline. I fear it would come off as trying to game the system, and since I'm comfortable with the rule being a single dice I'll just continue on my merry way. If it turns out I can select any number of dice at any time regardless of any other factors, then I'll rejoice. Until then, and only until then, I'm fine with the rule this way. 

[Montford]

I'm looking forward to readng up on the Orders Minorus they have featured in the Codex.

[ERJAK]

 

 

Coming from dealing with this in AoS, I must say I'm more comfortable with using the system as it works for its nearest analogue. It doesn't have any complexity or awkwardness in Sigmar, you roll 9 shots against 9 different targets, you replace 9 dice. Easy peasy.

 

 

Yeah, nobody here in my group has any experience with what truthfully amounts to a completely different game. A game with a completely different take on the same mechanic, mind you. Because of that lack of experience I doubt I could convince anybody to use that other game they don't know with rules they aren't familiar with as a guideline. I fear it would come off as trying to game the system, and since I'm comfortable with the rule being a single dice I'll just continue on my merry way. If it turns out I can select any number of dice at any time regardless of any other factors, then I'll rejoice. Until then, and only until then, I'm fine with the rule this way. 

 

While I can understand being more comfortable with using the rule that way, sort of, I certainly can't understand actually being comfortable with the rule being that way.

 

If you can only use one dice per roll, on one roll, once per phase without simulacrum/triumph, than the system is a very minor value add, especially considering the dice are random so it's entirely possible to go the entire game without getting a dice that's high enough to benefit from. Adding an additional hit to an attack is largely irrelevant, as is adding a single additional wound, sisters have too many ways to mitigate morale to really care about that, the vast majority of models are too cheap and expendable to put resources into saving and using a 6 for a run roll will be significant in 1 out of every 20 games at best.

 

And before it comes up, this is not something 'possibility' mitigates. Sisters already have 3+ ballistic skill and the weapons you would use a miracle dice on wound basically anything on a 4+. If you account for the fact that you were probably going to succeed in those roles anyway, then the value added to guaranteeing a hit or a wound is fairly low. Certainly lower than the two CP you'd have to spend to make your MD hit guarantee a wound.

 

Even on damage rolls with melta guns, using 6s doesn't add 6 damage, it adds 2.5. Because 3.5 is what you were probably going to get anyway. The only time you get value beyond that 2.5 is when the model had exactly 6 wounds left. Considering that 6 damage on a D6 damage roll is arguably the best possible outcome for using a miracle dice

 

Other than the damage roll their are 2 other times when a 'single dice' miracle dice system would be genuinely impactful and that is guaranteeing charges, and making saves against multiple damage wounds. Guaranteeing charges strength is heavily mitigated by only having 4 units in the army that can benefit from MD and are good in close combat, having 2 of those units having easy access to reroll charges anyway, and repentia and zephyrim being extremely vulnerable to overwatch. Making saves against multiple damage wounds is mitigated by the fact that it cannibalizes your high result dice away from damage rolls, can only be done once per phase on anything that matters without the triumph, and is unlikely to actually save anything from a significant commitment of firepower.

 

And because the value of the single dice roll MD system is so low baseline, investing in it becomes something unlikely to see any significant return. Only being able to use one dice means you won't take simulacrum on any infantry unit that doesn't have a meltagun (and considering the changes to dominions and the nerfs to immolators, seeing melta equipped squads is likely to be quite a bit rarer than it was in the past) and even those that DO have simulacrum and meltaguns will often not have opportunity to utilize the MD system either due to range issues, not having dice of suitable value available, or simple opportunity cost of using a 5 or a 6 on them when you have deepstrikers arriving next turn or what have you. Intercessor cherubs are also significantly worse because there are now several situations where you could pop a cherub and lose the dice, even with a simulacrum.

 

This will cascade into the Dialogus being cut because it has so few significant rolls it can adjust and the points can be used better elsewhere. The Battle Sanctum becomes an untenable option because the miracle dice every turn no longer helps counteract the value of losing a detachment slot. The Triumph of Saint Katherine goes from mediocre to dead in the water as it now A. Can't really be protected by miracle dice, B . Generates more miracle dice than you'll really be able to make good use of and C. The extra AoF it grants is much less valuable if it's only one dice.

 

This further cascades into Beacon of Faith, Order of our Martyrd Lady, and all of the stratagems that let you generate miracle dice being much less valuable. If only a handful of MD per game actually matter, then breaking your back to generate more just isn't that worth it. Litanies is the only thing that stays valuable no matter how many/few miracle dice you use. Armies become pure valorous heart, frustrate you into quitting 40k so I can win by default lists or bloody rose/penitent yolo lists, both generating 2, maybe 3 dice per battle round before characters start dying.

 

TL DR: A single dice miracle dice system is bad. Especially when you don't start with any dice before the game and are limited to one dice per phase.

[Bat33.1]

Basic question here as I've not seen it mentioned, do Sisters have access to CP as well as MD?

[Slasher956]

Basic question here as I've not seen it mentioned, do Sisters have access to CP as well as MD?

 

yes... 

 

you need CP to use any strats... CP generation is faction indepentant, purely reliant on formations chosen (and if your list is battle forged)

[Lemondish]

TL DR: A single dice miracle dice system is bad. Especially when you don't start with any dice before the game and are limited to one dice per phase.

Sure, but I'm fine with it because the alternative (as I outlined) is to argue the point ad nauseum prior to every game at best, or to not play this army at worst.

 

I'm with you on the power aspect - don't get me wrong, I want the ability to replace any number of actions because I think that would be amazingly powerful, but until we get examples of how to handle it in a half dozen relatively common situations I don't think I'll win that argument.

[Slasher956]

A thought has just occured to me... a side affect of the MD creation rules...namedly Valour: rolling an unmodified 1 in a moral check... is more dice rolls in a turn.

 

So where as in the past I've not bothered rolling a dice if there was no chance of failing* (or passing**) now there is a point... meaning I'llbe rolling a dice for every unit even if they only take a single casualty.

 

* ie only suffering 1 or 2 casualties

** ie suffering 9 with only 1 person left

Edited November 27, 2019 by Slasher956

[Lemondish]

@ ERJAK - you've had my thinking about this for most of my lunch break. I'm impressed at your impassioned support here and influenced to take your position as my own. The more I think about it, the more everything else just seems to fall into place. After all, at a high level, what's so miraculous about guaranteeing one result in a sea of dice that all have a high chance of succeeding anyway?

 

A thought has just occured to me... a side affect of the MD creation rules...namedly Valour: rolling an unmodified 1 in a moral check... is more dice rolls in a turn.

 

So where as in the past I've not bothered rolling a dice if there was no chance of failing* (or passing**) now there is a point... meaning I'llbe rolling a dice for every unit even if they only take a single casualty.

 

* ie only suffering 1 or 2 casualties

** ie suffering 9 with only 1 person left

Yep! That's something I had bookmarked in the back of my mind but is definitely a key thing to remember here.

[Servant of Dante]

Of course you only gain 1 Miracle Die in a phase regardless of how many units roll a 1 for Morale(or fulfill any of the other conditions for gaining miracle dice).

[Slasher956]

but more attempts for that 1 are always nice ....espicallay if you normally end up rolling hight for those tests :p

[Progenitor]

I'm definitely one of those people who's dice always turn up 5s and 6s when it comes to morale tests. 

[Lemondish]

Of course you only gain 1 Miracle Die in a phase regardless of how many units roll a 1 for Morale(or fulfill any of the other conditions for gaining miracle dice).

 

Sure, but the point was that a 5 model unit with Ld 8 that lost a single member could never lose a member to Morale in that phase, so most players would not even bother with the roll and simply move on. The same is true of morale tests for a 10 model unit with Ld8 that lost 9 members. Even with the best possible roll for morale here (a roll of 1), you'd still lose that final member as they wander off aimlessly looking for atonement (sisters don't actually flee, they just stop to ardently pray). To save time and to avoid doing pointless rolls, many players would simply complete the inevitable task of removing the model from the table and move on without a roll. I know I have. 

 

Now that there's a point to do it, even if the actual morale outcome never changes. We have to remember to do it because every roll we take in the morale phase is another chance at a miracle dice, especially since you'd also have had 2 different ways to gain one in your opponent's shooting phase and in the assault phase. But I think I see your point in that if you already got one, no need to continue rolling. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Lemondish

[Atrus]

Another argument on the multi dice MD. One of the maelstrom objective cards grant you quite a few VP if you perform 6 or more AoF in that turn. If AoF is only ever a single die no matter what, this is entirely impossible to do in your own turn- even with Simulcrum to have a unit to double AoF. 2 in shooting and 2 in assault and only possible for 1 in morale (but morale in your own turn won't happen unless there's been assault).

 

The only way to do it is in the opponents turn but you need simulcrum on all your units to pull it off because heaven help you if they target things that don't have it- like vehicles. But even then, if your opponent has no psykers for you to be able to AoF DTW a power, this is again entirely impossible to achieve.

 

Now multi dice MD on the other hand, this card is suddenly achievable and the only requirement is to have saved up the MD or spend a turn or 2 saving it up.

 

Edit: excuse me, I forgot about using MD for advance rolls in your turn, so while technically possible, it can only be achieved if you have Simulcrum on the units you use MD on.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Atrus

[Lemondish]

Another argument on the multi dice MD. One of the maelstrom objective cards grant you quite a few VP if you perform 6 or more AoF in that turn. If AoF is only ever a single die no matter what, this is entirely impossible to do in your own turn- even with Simulcrum to have a unit to double AoF. 2 in shooting and 2 in assault and only possible for 1 in morale (but morale in your own turn won't happen unless there's been assault).

 

The only way to do it is in the opponents turn but you need simulcrum on all your units to pull it off because heaven help you if they target things that don't have it- like vehicles. But even then, if your opponent has no psykers for you to be able to AoF DTW a power, this is again entirely impossible to achieve.

 

Now multi dice MD on the other hand, this card is suddenly achievable and the only requirement is to have saved up the MD or spend a turn or 2 saving it up.

 

Edit: excuse me, I forgot about using MD for advance rolls in your turn, so while technically possible, it can only be achieved if you have Simulcrum on the units you use MD on.

That's not actually true, nor would it be with multiple miracle dice used. After all, it would still be performing one Act of Faith with multiple Miracle Dice, not multiple Acts of Faith. It isn't one Act per dice after all.

 

Furthermore, you could perform six in the movement phase alone with a Brigade worth of Battle Sister squads advancing with Incensor Cherubs providing the source of dice and Simulacrum Imperialis providing the Act of Faith.

 

You could perform one for free in the movement phase, shooting phase, charge phase, assault phase, and morale phase without any wargear or special rules all in your turn even with one die per roll.

[Atrus]

Remind me the cherub thing?

 

My reading of the Simulcrum is that it allows a unit to perform a second AoF when it's already done one; not allow a completely seperate unit to do one when another unit has done one.