War Angel Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 What’s some options we have for dealing with those? I got destroyed over the weekend due to 4+ invol or feel no pain or both. Aside from just pouring on the wounds until something gets through; I had a pretty good number of models for the points level we played at. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteySödes Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 Drukhari coven list? If so, I try to kill the softer targets and play the objective. Easier said than done but it beats wasting the good shots on them. Counter deployment can work too, feed them a tasty target they can’t ignore then go about your business. Those units tend to want to get shot so if you can avoid them all the better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5321802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 Librarian (Phobos an option?) Aggresors and Inceptors are my plan :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5321804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Angel Posted May 28, 2019 Author Share Posted May 28, 2019 It was 3 games, first was nids, with a rather unfortunate amount of los blocking terrain in the middle of the map. Gene stealers got into me first turn and I spent the entire game trying to get past their invol save. The objective was the one with three points and the further you got from your deployment the more points they were, and I didn’t have the firepower to kill all the gaunts sitting in the middle. Second game was against a blood angle blob that had their relic ancient and gave everything a 5+FNP that he mostly passed. Then that stupid 24 inch movement dreadnaught came into my lines . Third game was two knights and an armiger. At 1250, I had 5 hellblasters and a predator to deal with armor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5321813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Angel Posted May 29, 2019 Author Share Posted May 29, 2019 The inceptors didn’t really work as well as I had hoped. They managed to wreck a 3 man warrior squad without any loss, but then a swarm of gaunts made it impossible to get points. How would the Phobos Libraian be able to help. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5321815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unseen Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 At 1250, it sounds like your opponents were running either stuff you hadn't prepared for very well (Gaunts, Libby Dread) or were just being kinda of an :cuss. Who brings 2 knights to a 1250 pt casual game? Not someone wanting to make friends anyway. And a huge block of LoS blocking terrain at lowish points levels can have a real warping effect, but imagine what that Nid player would feel if it was planet bowling ball vs a shooty army. and unfortunately, the things to deal with one are the wrong thing to bring against the other. Against units with an invuln, you want stuff that throws a lot of mediocre shots, limited armor pen, 1 damage, roll a lot of dice, because invulns are usually worse than regular armor saves, just make them roll enough and they will fail. For FNP style saves, what you want are the opposite, with multi-damage weapons, because you have to roll for each individual wound caused, not the hit. So an intercessor with a 5+++ is fairly durable, until you start throwing 3 damage wounds at him, as he'll *on average* pass 1 of the 3 wounds, and die anyway. But try and avoid D3 damage weapons vs a multi-wound units with multiple models with a FNP save, as you can get weird stuff were models end up sorta "eating" wounds. If you throw 1 damage into that same intercessor followed immediately by a 3 damage one, that first damage basically didn't matter at all, the 2nd shot would have killed him regardless, so it ends up being wasted damage. Over-charged plasma has a similar issue, as 2 damage will often leave a primaris model with the banner on 1 wound, allowing them to soak 2 shots before dying. What's your list look like beyond the hellblasters (which are fine) and the Predator (which is generallly considered very poor) ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5321831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Angel Posted May 29, 2019 Author Share Posted May 29, 2019 It was two five man intercessors, a five man tactical with plasma and combi plasma, a five man tactical with multi melta. 3 man inceptors squad 5 man sternguard, Primaris approthicary, Primaris ancient w/ relic Gravis captain and Primaris LT w/ MC stalker Yeah, the hell blasters basicly over charged and basicly took all the wounds to kill the same guy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5321840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chapter master 454 Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 "look buddy, I solve problems" Sorry, had to get it in there. Really, against invulnerable saves it really is a case of overloading their ability to keep it up. Naturally most invulnerable saves suck compared to armour saves (most tend to be around 5 to 6 compared to armour being commonly between 3-5) so in this case weapons with low AP tend to be your friend as they like to compensate with a rate of fire benefit. It was how I dropped a Smash Captain, levelled an entire vetercessor squad of rapid fire at him then followed by the charged, he wasn't able to make all the 3++. Basically, when your can't modify the save just stop being clever and just lock-n-load a drum mag and hold the trigger til it goes click. In terms of knights sadly there isn't much here, they are an extremely polarising army. It is ether all or nothing really and by all accounts the latest change to rotate means you can at least get lascannons through. However a bit of advice would be overload a flank for the knights, and now they have to ether commit everything or risk getting picked apart. Just remember, another factor in list building is knowing the field. By that I mean the players, you can get a good measure of what to do when you know what each player likes to bring. When you hear knights are about, pack a couple of pocket lascannons. When you hear anything else running around with invulnerables, check your bolter ammo count, bill the chapter master for double and as stated earlier: til it goes click! Bait them in, use long line formations with it stretched in front of other units but tight enough to prohibit movement past the models. Best advice I can give really. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5321851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephaniah Adriyen Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 At 1250, it sounds like your opponents were running either stuff you hadn't prepared for very well (Gaunts, Libby Dread) or were just being kinda of an . Who brings 2 knights to a 1250 pt casual game? Not someone wanting to make friends anyway. This. Good lord, this. Ahem. Grab some Assassins to get past Invulns. Or weight of fire, yeah. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5321854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 Which chapter are you running ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5321888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 Invul saves are dealt with with higher volumes of fire - 4++ means they fail half of all saves. What was your opponent running? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5321984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 What’s some options we have for dealing with those? I got destroyed over the weekend due to 4+ invol or feel no pain or both. Aside from just pouring on the wounds until something gets through; I had a pretty good number of models for the points level we played at. Literally the only things that works against invul saves is rate of fire and mortal wounds (or luck). Luckily rate of fire also works against FnP like abilities, though you can deal with those easily with multi-damage weapons too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5322004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Angel Posted May 29, 2019 Author Share Posted May 29, 2019 Imperial fist Do we have any D3 weapons? Unfortunately they had intercessors. What gives us better rate of fire than rapid firing bolters and bolt rifles? And inceptors? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5322047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maritn Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 Have you got Dakka Centurions? I haven't played for a while, but I will use them the next time I get a chance to play. I'll put them in a Siege Breaker Cohort next to an Indomitable captain with the Eye of Hypnoth. Gives you a lot of dakka plus mortal wounds against vehicles. Hopefully they won't be wiped turn 1... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5322065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 What gives us better rate of fire than rapid firing bolters and bolt rifles? And inceptors? Uh plenty of things. Anything with Heavy Bolters, Assault cannons or with (Heavy) Onslaught gatling cannons. So Razorbacks, Dreadnoughts, Devastators, Inceptors, Repulsors, etc. Bolter are actually pretty terrible when it comes to rate of fire for points because you pay a lot for the Marine carrying it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5322096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 A squad of Aggressors can fire bolters about 150 times? A Repulsor has 30+ shots even if you go full Las. 5 Inceptors are 30 Str5 shots, etc Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5322097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 You should really consider the dakka centurions in the specialist Detachment. That thing can solve a lot of your problems just through weight of dice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5322191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 Dakka Centurions are indeed pretty good now, especially in the IF specialist detachment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5322192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Angel Posted May 29, 2019 Author Share Posted May 29, 2019 I don’t have the data sheets for the specialist detachment Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5322204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 A Thunderfire Cannon. It provides a decent rate of fire with shot stats that meet the criteria for getting around infantry I-saves, it can cover most of the board, and ignores LOS restrictions. It also has one of the IMHO highest-utility stratagems in the codex; the things are tailor-made for pissing off Ork and Nid players. They're also comparatively cheap, with a Chapter Approved adjusted price below 100 points if memory serves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5322232 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris186 Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 Vindicare Assassin ignores Invul svs Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5322397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chapter master 454 Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Vindicare Assassin ignores Invul svs Sadly when you have 20 odd genestealers running at you, it isn't about getting through the 4++. more about just keep the barrels glowing. Though this is true, the assassins offer a unique avenue of dealing with problems as I believe the Eversor would also be effective for dealing with genestealers. Just hyuck one of those heped up psychos into a stack of genestealers, tell him they have more drugs inside them and boom...ether they are dead or he takes a good chunk with him (in the explosion and bear in mind eversors have an INSANE stratagem in terms of FNP). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5322464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephaniah Adriyen Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Omnissiah, Genestealers have 4++? That is terrifying, why do they have that? Aren't they a less-than-elite option for Tyranids? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5322466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 No, they're definitely an elite option for Tyranids compared to gaunts. They're fast, they have a blizzard of attacks, and they do indeed have a great save. TFCs, heavy bolters, and assault cannons are all high rate of fire weapons that wound them on 3+. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5322470 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Librarian = Null Zone. Deletes most Knight Invul saves and with luck can counter some other army’s also Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356222-dealing-with-invol-saves-and-fnp/#findComment-5322485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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