Word Bearers Pre Heresy army idea, but not...

[Brother Eleysium]

In between working on my various army projects I have been mulling over insanely starting another one. I have long been wanting to do some Pre-Heresy Word Bearers, but I really don't like the 30K rules, so this was going to be built for 8th edition only. So, what I want to do/am proposing to do is a really small 500-1000 pt Word Bearers "pre-heresy" army. 

 

The background I was kind of going with would be a small veteran strike force that disappeared during Warp travel before the Heresy began and well before the events on Khur. They emerged in the current state of the Imperium out of the Great Rift, but to them mere moments had passed not 10,000 years.  They were shortly discovered thereafter by an Imperial fleet, stood down as they still consider themselves part of the Imperium. The hailing fleet had no clue who they were as we all know their existence, heraldy etc... has been expunged. They were eventually turned over to Roboute Guilliman, Marneus Calgar, and other Chapter Masters to decide their fate. They were then enlightened as to the Heresy, the current state of the Imperium of man, and the fact that 10,000+ years have passed. The fact that their beloved Primarch and Legion were at the very heart of the betrayal was almost too much for many of them to overcome. They then pledge to fight for the Imperium and the Emperor to avenge their lost honor.

 

As we all know the Ultramarine hatred for the Word Bearers burns brighter than 1000 exploding suns so Guilliman's initial reaction was to have them all executed. Guilliman was convinced to spare them by his council after intense debate. After each brother is interrogated, inspected for taint or falsehoods, they are allowed to fight to prove their loyalty. Guilliman places them at the heart of the fighting on Vigilus with Ultramarine escort where they eventually prove their worth. 

 

I was going to use the standard Space Marine Codex and stick to Sternguard type units, a few Tac squads, definitely a Chaplain or two, a Captain, a Dread or two, and maybe a few tanks/transports. I would not be using any Primaris, just classic marines. I really don't care about the success of the army as we play for the more narrative side of things at my local store and within our immediate group of 20 or so guys. This project will be purely for the fun of the modeling, painting, and narrative side of things.

 

I am unsure what Chapter Tactic I should use if any. So I could definitely use some input there. 

 

As far as modeling was concerned, I had planned on using MK3 and MK4 boxes and doing some minor conversions to make them look like they were outfitted with some current weaponry and equipment. There would definitely be a few purchase from FW to ensure the army maintains that Pre-Heresy feel. But none of the really radical units. 

 

The guys at my local gaming group like it, and  have encouraged the project. But, i wanted a broader spectrum of opinions. What do you think brothers?

 

[Soulhunter1995]

I remember reading somewhere before Forge World did the HH series that Black Templar rules would be the best fit for Word Bearers :) although depending on what the chapter specialized in before the heresy then you could use any you wanted :)

[Gederas]

I like the idea. Especially if you go with them rocking the Imperial Heralds' colour scheme and iconography. So the slate grey with some alternate trim.

 

I'm thinking the Ashen Circle could be used for Assault Marines, just swap the hand flamers to bolt pistols? The FW Shoulders for Word Bearers has their pre-Heresy symbol too.

[Brother Eleysium]

I like the idea. Especially if you go with them rocking the Imperial Heralds' colour scheme and iconography. So the slate grey with some alternate trim.

 

I'm thinking the Ashen Circle could be used for Assault Marines, just swap the hand flamers to bolt pistols?

 

That was my intention. I really like their Pre-Heresy schemes and iconography. Plus I always had a soft spot for the Word Bearers for some reason. Especially after reading the Hours Heresy novels and empathizing with a lot of the Traitor Legions and the decisions they made. 

[Soulhunter1995]

I know the feeling :) I`ve been sorely tempted to make some Imperial Herald Primaris actually... 

[Marshal Rohr]

Why not make a DIY with the color scheme and avoid the time traveling.

[MARK0SIAN]

My vote for Chapter tactics would be Iron Hands. The feel no pain roll would be a good representation of their determination not to fail and to prove themselves loyal to the emperor, letting them endure things that would otherwise kill them.

[Knight of the Raven]

I'm not up to date with the current lore, but would Guilliman's initial reaction really be to have them executed? Didn't he have loyalists from the Traitor Legions kicking around in Ultramar back during the Heresy? I feel it's rather he who would have to convince his council of chapter masters not to kill them on principle.

He might even be happy to have someone from before everything went to hell around, even if they're from the Legion that's the reason everything went to hell in the first place. He'd probably have preferred Imperial Heralds, yes, since they would disagree with the Emperor being a god as much as he does, but beggars can't be choosers.

There's some pragmatism in Guilliman from what I've seen of him, so he might also see it as an opportunity. Whether that opportunity is trying to understand how Lorgar came to do what he did or using them as bait because they're likely to attract every Word Bearers warband in the Segmentum, well, that's up to you...

[Vykes]

The grey Imperial Heralds colours would be pretty great to see.  But a 30K styled force just using standard mars codex equipment?  That's an altogether different form of heresy.  As for chapter tactics, I'd probably give it to Iron Hands for their tenacity, but hear me out: what about Blood Angels? 

 

Number one, they're just as choppy if you want to go with their fundamentalist 'always forward for the Emperor' thing, but their schtick with fire works well.  Ashen Circle: company veterans with jump packs wielding inferno pistols and power axes.  Standard tac squads with heavy flamers, Predators with flame -everything-.  Go with the Contemptors, the speeders, the relic heresy era vehicles, it's one of the most fun bits of the pre-heresy bits: the extra fun stuff they have that makes them look unique.  It's not like it's overpowered kit. 

 

I'd say go full Incendiary with wanting to cleanse through fire and perdition's flames. 

[Brother Eleysium]

I'm not up to date with the current lore, but would Guilliman's initial reaction really be to have them executed? Didn't he have loyalists from the Traitor Legions kicking around in Ultramar back during the Heresy? I feel it's rather he who would have to convince his council of chapter masters not to kill them on principle.

 

He might even be happy to have someone from before everything went to hell around, even if they're from the Legion that's the reason everything went to hell in the first place. He'd probably have preferred Imperial Heralds, yes, since they would disagree with the Emperor being a god as much as he does, but beggars can't be choosers.

 

There's some pragmatism in Guilliman from what I've seen of him, so he might also see it as an opportunity. Whether that opportunity is trying to understand how Lorgar came to do what he did or using them as bait because they're likely to attract every Word Bearers warband in the Segmentum, well, that's up to you...

 

I didn't even consider this when I thought this up. I have read most of the HH series, and I am actually reading the Ultramarines Word Bearers story line right now. It's one of the last few I have before I start my copy of Siege of Terra which just arrived the other day. Reading these is actually where most of my inspiration came from. Really good points. Much appreciated.

 

My vote for Chapter tactics would be Iron Hands. The feel no pain roll would be a good representation of their determination not to fail and to prove themselves loyal to the emperor, letting them endure things that would otherwise kill them.

 

That's a really good thought. I'll definitely consider it.

 

The grey Imperial Heralds colours would be pretty great to see.  But a 30K styled force just using standard mars codex equipment?  That's an altogether different form of heresy.  As for chapter tactics, I'd probably give it to Iron Hands for their tenacity, but hear me out: what about Blood Angels? 

 

Number one, they're just as choppy if you want to go with their fundamentalist 'always forward for the Emperor' thing, but their schtick with fire works well.  Ashen Circle: company veterans with jump packs wielding inferno pistols and power axes.  Standard tac squads with heavy flamers, Predators with flame -everything-.  Go with the Contemptors, the speeders, the relic heresy era vehicles, it's one of the most fun bits of the pre-heresy bits: the extra fun stuff they have that makes them look unique.  It's not like it's overpowered kit. 

 

I'd say go full Incendiary with wanting to cleanse through fire and perdition's flames. 

 

Haha, didn't think of it like that. Really great stuff. Just to clarify, were the Word Bearers really big into flame weapons? If so, wouldn't it make more sense to use the Salamanders Tactics for the strategems and rerolls? Not sure how well it does or doesn't fit.

 

I really like the Blood Angels Codex for the Ashen Circle and the all flame Predators. From a cinematic perspective, those just sound sweet. 

[Vykes]

I've always took a lot of inspiration from Know no Fear, First Heretic, and  maybe my favourite in The Purge. Before Monarchia it seems the Ultramarines didn't think much of the Word Bearers tactical discipline and actual 'soldier' abilities.  It was one of the kinda neat things to see in Know no Fear where Ultramarine captains were thinking, "Huh, they really shaped up.  Good for them." almost immediately before being shot to pieces. Between it, and the wide array of tactical units and steady troops in The Purge with neat firing lines led by crested centurions I always got the impression of the Word Bearers being very disciplined (something, I'm afraid to say, I don't ascribe to Black Templars or World Eaters, etc).  So I think that almost any one of the 'chapter' options will work given how diverse they were as a legion.  Make your own background and theme your commander, and they can take care of any role and take on any personality.  

 

Okay, with that said: the Imperial Heralds seemed to be pretty big into burning and destroying temples and places of worship of the Old Gods during their time as the Imperial Heralds.  They seem to have a fair bit of flame-based stuff, and the Ashen Circle are specifically called iconoclasts.  So if you go for the flame option, as cool and reasonable as Salamanders sound on first inspection, if I'm not mistaken, the Blood Angels have the sheer advantage in choices for actually taking flame based options.  For instance, Ashen Circle can't be made any way other than Blood Angels (as far as I'm aware).  More over, they aren't so much 'master crafted' as just having them at hand. 

 

So, I'd seriously be edging towards Blood Angels: if only because they can take all the Heresy relic equipment and have ways to create Breacher squads (company vets+storm shields), Destroyer squads (company vets+jump packs, 2 pistol options), and Ashen Circle (death company+jump pack+hand flamer and power axe, and hey it even gives you a FNP save!), led by chaplains! You're in better shape than my Sons of Horus which have to sub in Plague Marines for breachers. :P

[N1SB]

Hi Brother, I really love this idea.  The most recent book I've read was Lorgar: Bearer of the Word and I've been thinking of things like this, because I'm finding the Word Bearers fascinating as the most self-contradictory of the Legions, imho right now in my thinking.  And back in 7th ed, I ran remnants of the Shattered Xth, 30k Loyalist Iron Hands, with the Chaos Space Marine Codex (I know this might be surprising, more below).  Having gone through a similar creative exercise myself, my thoughts.

 

I'm not up to date with the current lore, but would Guilliman's initial reaction really be to have them executed? Didn't he have loyalists from the Traitor Legions kicking around in Ultramar back during the Heresy? I feel it's rather he who would have to convince his council of chapter masters not to kill them on principle.

He might even be happy to have someone from before everything went to hell around, even if they're from the Legion that's the reason everything went to hell in the first place. He'd probably have preferred Imperial Heralds, yes, since they would disagree with the Emperor being a god as much as he does, but beggars can't be choosers.

 

I think Frater Knight Raven is being too modest, because this is EXACTLY what is implied in the current lore.  In fact, these 2 points are directly referenced in the the post-Indomitus Crusade novels, Dark Imperium and Dark Imperium II: Plague War (as well as in Unremembered Empire's Imperium Secundus).  I know you're an avid reader, but a lot of my 40k book club read only Horus Heresy novels and not the 40k, so let me share as non-spoilery as possible, but it's inevitable I'll hit some spoilers:

 

In the Dark Imperium books, Guilliman's practical challenge are Death Guard invading his space, but his overarching theoretical challenge is the current state of the Imperium as a whole.  You know he's capable of dealing with war, logistics, even politics...but he has real trouble understanding the Imperial Cult/Eclessiarchy.

 

You know his approach to faith on Khur, just burn it all down.  He can't do that now to the Imperium, as the worship of the Emperor has been baked in the last 10,000 years.  So as usual, that which he can't control, he tries to at least manage.  He elevates a priest on his 500 Worlds to be his pope, basically outsourcing the problem.

 

That decision really comes back to bite him.  This priest, whom he put into a position of power, believes he knows the Emperor's Will better than the Primarch himself does.  This infuriates Guilliman to no end, not because of ego, but the sheer illogic of it, because the Primarch actually spoke to the Emperor in Gathering Storm III.

 

By the end of Dark Imperium II: Plague War, the priest manipulates events to show Guilliman the divinity of the Emperor, that people like him are what bring Light to the Darkness, at which point the Primarch barks back that no, that he and his ilk ARE the Darkness.  He can't fire or execute this guy, because of the politics of it.

 

Here comes the point where I believe Guilliman would not only spare your Imperial Heralds, but see them as a great opportunity, for this major theoretical.

 

Guilliman needs help understanding the faith issue, almost desperately.  At the end of the novel, he resorts to a theoretical he NEVER wanted to consider, that he's literally kept under lock and key for 10,000 years.  He takes a little box, it's like a little present box, unlocks it, pulls the gift out, turns to the 1st page.

 

And Guilliman begins reading the Book of Lorgar.

 

Your Imperial Heralds are like the ONE group of people that could work with Guilliman on this issue that seems to be his personal biggest challenge.  In fact, they are almost the model citizens, in that they are able to turn away from their faith back to the loyal service of the Emperor.

 

+++++

 

Some sidenotes on other relevant elements from Dark Imperium I and II, as there's precedents to some of the things you mentioned.

 

It seems Guilliman would like people from the 30k era to talk to, because they understand where he's coming from.  There's a Primaris Captain Felix, who's become one of Guilliman's close advisors.  He was born shortly after the Heresy, was expecting to join the Ultramarines, and he did, but he was picked up by Belisarius Cawl's agents and turned into a Primaris then kept in stasis for about 10,000 years.  He still remembers Old Ultramar as it used to be during Guilliman's time.  And he suspects that Guilliman likes having him around just in case he needs to talk to someone from his Imperium, not the Imperium as it is now.

 

Marneus Calgar has become a fascinating character now and relevant to your interests.  As someone who was revered as the Master of the Ultramarines and Lord of the 500 Worlds, what happens when Roboute Guilliman wakes up and takes back what was his?  Lone male lions, the ones pushed out of their prides by new alphas, are the most dangerous.  Calgar has really struggled with this and has a whole chapter dealing with tasks he feels are beneath him, but he's trying to prove his worth to his Primarch desperately.  When he underwent Primaris-fication, still a dangerous and untested procedure, in my headcanon he's doing it because either a.) he impresses Guilliman or b.) he dies...because life in irrelevancy is worse than death to him.  I think HE should be the one strongly arguing for the Imperial Herald's deaths, because he's one of the few that know what they were, thinking that's what his Primarch wants.  Of course, he completely misreads him and just further proves how he's not the close advisor to Guilliman he wants to be.

 

In short, I think it'd be perfect for the Ultramarines to still have that debate, but Guilliman is absolutely on the side of sparing your pre-Heresy Imperial Heralds...but in typical fashion, he wants someone else to voice that, to show he is a fair judge with the wisdom of Solomon in his ruling that they should do penance.

 

I think Marneus Calgar should be the one advocating for their execution, believing it to be the obviously right decision, only to have the Primarch very diplomatically but masterfully overturn him, which he can only see as a rebuke that eats at his very soul.  In reality, Guilliman wasn't rebuking, just needed the debate politically.

 

As an aside, if I may suggest an addition please, your Imperial Heralds didn't end up in Warp limbo by accident.  Kor Phaeron sent them to that spot deliberately, who had some understanding of it from his study.  Your Heralds' and his views didn't exactly gel, so he conveniently sent them on a mission where they couldn't interfere with his authority, even before the Heresy, because that's honestly exactly the type of guy Kor Phaeron is.

 

 

+++++

 

 

I've been considering Chapter Tactics for this situation.  I really struggled with a similar thing before to represent remnants of the Shattered Xth in 7th ed (unable to believe that half their Legionnaire brethren had turned traitor, these Iron Hands decided to go into suspended animation until they got verification from the 2 people they can trust, either their Primarch or the Emperor himself...no reply ever came), but my friends and I came up with a creative framework and solution.

 

In my case, it was to use the Chaos Space Marine Codex and have my Marines count as Marks of Nurgle, because the extra Toughness resembled their actual 30k/AoD Legion Tactic rules (a smart friend remarked "The Xth Legion Tactic is like Mark of Nurgle backwards, right?"  He was right).  It also reflected their way of combat is still in the Legion mindset, like they never adopted the limitation of 10-man squads of the Codex Astartes.  Also represented Mechanicum allies using Daemon Engines.  Many of my meta were familiar with but not actively playing 30k/AoD, so they really liked this idea, because it's like these guys, before going into suspended animation, really tinkered with their armour and automata as they awaited confirmation of the Heresy, so they're using slightly modified tech as is fitting for Iron Hands.

 

The Imperial Heralds Chapter Tactics-equivalent is very tricky indeed now in 8th.  I was also considering how you wanted basically Veteran Marines, like Sternguard.  I'm also anticipating the 30k angle as well as how the priority of this project is modeling, painting, customisation.  I'm going through the same mental exercise that I used on myself, and I sincerely suggest the following please:

 

Don't use Chapter Tactics per se at all, ATSNKF is close enough to the Word Bearers' Legion Tactics.  Use the Deathwatch Codex instead.  Instead of actual Chapter Tactics, they just get gear that better represents how they fought in the 30k era.

 

Your Imperial Herald veteran strike force aren't just Sternguard equivalents, they're more than that, they were Ashen Circle and Destroyer Squads (that iirc Word Bearers used to go with their Ashen Circle often) and Breacher Squads.  So imagine Deathwatch Vanguard Veterans with Power Axe and Hand Flamer, normal Veteran with 2 Bolt Pistols firing Special Issue Ammo, and Storm Shield Veterans representing those respectively.  This is also ideal for a modeling perspective because you can also mix and match them in a squad, so you don't over-commit your time and resources, because you can just do a few of each type of Marine.

 

I also really, really like the idea of an Ultramarines (or Ultramarines successor) escort, a trust but verify situation, as a small detachment of allies.  I love it when an army visually contains its dramatic tension in and of itself, like there's already a story there even without an enemy force.

 

Just my suggestions, but I actually really like the idea that Loyalist Word Bearers have their Legion Tactic already baked into ATSKNF, so they can use the Deathwatch Codex to avoid an additional Chapter Tactic, and get more 30k-themed gear isntead.

[Gederas]

Wow.... N1SB, you're a genius. That's actually perfect logic for what codex to use.

[Knight of the Raven]

Just to clarify, were the Word Bearers really big into flame weapons?

They weren't.

 

The XVIIth Legion was into purging all and any deviance from history—from the Imperial Truth for Imperial Heralds, from the Imperial Creed for loyal Word Bearers. It just happens that burning evidence to ashes has been humanity's favorite way of consigning the past to oblivion for a long, long time.

 

As such, they created squads for that very purpose: the Ashen Circle, who went and burned libraries and churches to the ground, probably including the clerks working in the former and the crowds who took refuge in the latter when the monsters of fire and sword descended from the skies.

 

The members of these squads probably loved the smell of promethium in the morning, yes. The Word Bearers as a whole? No, making the Salamanders chapter tactics a poor fit; especially if these still have references to their mastercrafting tendencies, which don't fit either.

 

I think Frater Knight Raven is being too modest, because this is EXACTLY what is implied in the current lore.

Thank you. What I meant, however, was that I did not read any of the new developments myself.

 

One thing I'd like to point out. Some people here seem to refer to Brother Eleysium's upcoming army as Imperial Heralds, but from what I've understood, he's rather talking about pre-pilgrimage Word Bearers. Pre-Monarchia Word Bearers, even. As such, they believe the Emperor is a god and are as clueless about his real opinion as Lorgar used to be—and as nearly everyone in the Imperium.

 

They probably have a few choice words about the whole Monarchia and Khur things, incidentally.

 

Guilliman may, in turn, casually ask them if they had any hand in purging the Word Bearers who clung to the Imperial Truth, the same way the traitors purged the loyalists sometime later, because an entire Legion of ruthlessly militant atheists doesn't magically start worshipping the guy in charge just because his son did before he even met him.

[N1SB]

Wow.... N1SB, you're a genius. That's actually perfect logic for what codex to use.

 

No, Brother, I'm a dunce, and I see the logic in Brother Vykes's and other's points of views, too, all make sense to me.

 

But it's totally cool, because if Brother Eleysium passes on this...I (and anyone else interested) CAN TOTALLY DO THIS.  j/k I won't steal your idea.

 

'Cos I was reckoning after the fact the Ashen Circle kinda did what Deathwatch does now, purge what they consider to be heretics.  They'd be like Roboute Guilliman's personal Deathwatch a little bit, yeah?  Now that there's plastic Mk III and IV armour and those new Contrast ways to paint that light grey, that could look so good.

[Trevak Dal]

The heavy religious crusader tones of Black Templars would be great for Word Bearers, they probably wouldn't chain their weapons to themselves, just blasting Powerwolf as they charge forward. The Wordbearers were a missionary force more than anything, they brought the light of the salvation from the emperor.

 

Now I imagine it's like the Necromongers from the second Riddick movie "Convert now (to Chaos) or fall forever"

[Brother Eleysium]

Hi Brother, I really love this idea.  The most recent book I've read was Lorgar: Bearer of the Word and I've been thinking of things like this, because I'm finding the Word Bearers fascinating as the most self-contradictory of the Legions, imho right now in my thinking.  And back in 7th ed, I ran remnants of the Shattered Xth, 30k Loyalist Iron Hands, with the Chaos Space Marine Codex (I know this might be surprising, more below).  Having gone through a similar creative exercise myself, my thoughts.

 

I'm not up to date with the current lore, but would Guilliman's initial reaction really be to have them executed? Didn't he have loyalists from the Traitor Legions kicking around in Ultramar back during the Heresy? I feel it's rather he who would have to convince his council of chapter masters not to kill them on principle.

 

He might even be happy to have someone from before everything went to hell around, even if they're from the Legion that's the reason everything went to hell in the first place. He'd probably have preferred Imperial Heralds, yes, since they would disagree with the Emperor being a god as much as he does, but beggars can't be choosers.

 

I think Frater Knight Raven is being too modest, because this is EXACTLY what is implied in the current lore.  In fact, these 2 points are directly referenced in the the post-Indomitus Crusade novels, Dark Imperium and Dark Imperium II: Plague War (as well as in Unremembered Empire's Imperium Secundus).  I know you're an avid reader, but a lot of my 40k book club read only Horus Heresy novels and not the 40k, so let me share as non-spoilery as possible, but it's inevitable I'll hit some spoilers:

 

In the Dark Imperium books, Guilliman's practical challenge are Death Guard invading his space, but his overarching theoretical challenge is the current state of the Imperium as a whole.  You know he's capable of dealing with war, logistics, even politics...but he has real trouble understanding the Imperial Cult/Eclessiarchy.

 

You know his approach to faith on Khur, just burn it all down.  He can't do that now to the Imperium, as the worship of the Emperor has been baked in the last 10,000 years.  So as usual, that which he can't control, he tries to at least manage.  He elevates a priest on his 500 Worlds to be his pope, basically outsourcing the problem.

 

That decision really comes back to bite him.  This priest, whom he put into a position of power, believes he knows the Emperor's Will better than the Primarch himself does.  This infuriates Guilliman to no end, not because of ego, but the sheer illogic of it, because the Primarch actually spoke to the Emperor in Gathering Storm III.

 

By the end of Dark Imperium II: Plague War, the priest manipulates events to show Guilliman the divinity of the Emperor, that people like him are what bring Light to the Darkness, at which point the Primarch barks back that no, that he and his ilk ARE the Darkness.  He can't fire or execute this guy, because of the politics of it.

 

Here comes the point where I believe Guilliman would not only spare your Imperial Heralds, but see them as a great opportunity, for this major theoretical.

 

Guilliman needs help understanding the faith issue, almost desperately.  At the end of the novel, he resorts to a theoretical he NEVER wanted to consider, that he's literally kept under lock and key for 10,000 years.  He takes a little box, it's like a little present box, unlocks it, pulls the gift out, turns to the 1st page.

 

And Guilliman begins reading the Book of Lorgar.

 

Your Imperial Heralds are like the ONE group of people that could work with Guilliman on this issue that seems to be his personal biggest challenge.  In fact, they are almost the model citizens, in that they are able to turn away from their faith back to the loyal service of the Emperor.

 

+++++

 

Some sidenotes on other relevant elements from Dark Imperium I and II, as there's precedents to some of the things you mentioned.

 

It seems Guilliman would like people from the 30k era to talk to, because they understand where he's coming from.  There's a Primaris Captain Felix, who's become one of Guilliman's close advisors.  He was born shortly after the Heresy, was expecting to join the Ultramarines, and he did, but he was picked up by Belisarius Cawl's agents and turned into a Primaris then kept in stasis for about 10,000 years.  He still remembers Old Ultramar as it used to be during Guilliman's time.  And he suspects that Guilliman likes having him around just in case he needs to talk to someone from his Imperium, not the Imperium as it is now.

 

Marneus Calgar has become a fascinating character now and relevant to your interests.  As someone who was revered as the Master of the Ultramarines and Lord of the 500 Worlds, what happens when Roboute Guilliman wakes up and takes back what was his?  Lone male lions, the ones pushed out of their prides by new alphas, are the most dangerous.  Calgar has really struggled with this and has a whole chapter dealing with tasks he feels are beneath him, but he's trying to prove his worth to his Primarch desperately.  When he underwent Primaris-fication, still a dangerous and untested procedure, in my headcanon he's doing it because either a.) he impresses Guilliman or b.) he dies...because life in irrelevancy is worse than death to him.  I think HE should be the one strongly arguing for the Imperial Herald's deaths, because he's one of the few that know what they were, thinking that's what his Primarch wants.  Of course, he completely misreads him and just further proves how he's not the close advisor to Guilliman he wants to be.

 

In short, I think it'd be perfect for the Ultramarines to still have that debate, but Guilliman is absolutely on the side of sparing your pre-Heresy Imperial Heralds...but in typical fashion, he wants someone else to voice that, to show he is a fair judge with the wisdom of Solomon in his ruling that they should do penance.

 

I think Marneus Calgar should be the one advocating for their execution, believing it to be the obviously right decision, only to have the Primarch very diplomatically but masterfully overturn him, which he can only see as a rebuke that eats at his very soul.  In reality, Guilliman wasn't rebuking, just needed the debate politically.

 

As an aside, if I may suggest an addition please, your Imperial Heralds didn't end up in Warp limbo by accident.  Kor Phaeron sent them to that spot deliberately, who had some understanding of it from his study.  Your Heralds' and his views didn't exactly gel, so he conveniently sent them on a mission where they couldn't interfere with his authority, even before the Heresy, because that's honestly exactly the type of guy Kor Phaeron is.

 

 

+++++

 

 

I've been considering Chapter Tactics for this situation.  I really struggled with a similar thing before to represent remnants of the Shattered Xth in 7th ed (unable to believe that half their Legionnaire brethren had turned traitor, these Iron Hands decided to go into suspended animation until they got verification from the 2 people they can trust, either their Primarch or the Emperor himself...no reply ever came), but my friends and I came up with a creative framework and solution.

 

In my case, it was to use the Chaos Space Marine Codex and have my Marines count as Marks of Nurgle, because the extra Toughness resembled their actual 30k/AoD Legion Tactic rules (a smart friend remarked "The Xth Legion Tactic is like Mark of Nurgle backwards, right?"  He was right).  It also reflected their way of combat is still in the Legion mindset, like they never adopted the limitation of 10-man squads of the Codex Astartes.  Also represented Mechanicum allies using Daemon Engines.  Many of my meta were familiar with but not actively playing 30k/AoD, so they really liked this idea, because it's like these guys, before going into suspended animation, really tinkered with their armour and automata as they awaited confirmation of the Heresy, so they're using slightly modified tech as is fitting for Iron Hands.

 

The Imperial Heralds Chapter Tactics-equivalent is very tricky indeed now in 8th.  I was also considering how you wanted basically Veteran Marines, like Sternguard.  I'm also anticipating the 30k angle as well as how the priority of this project is modeling, painting, customisation.  I'm going through the same mental exercise that I used on myself, and I sincerely suggest the following please:

 

Don't use Chapter Tactics per se at all, ATSNKF is close enough to the Word Bearers' Legion Tactics.  Use the Deathwatch Codex instead.  Instead of actual Chapter Tactics, they just get gear that better represents how they fought in the 30k era.

 

Your Imperial Herald veteran strike force aren't just Sternguard equivalents, they're more than that, they were Ashen Circle and Destroyer Squads (that iirc Word Bearers used to go with their Ashen Circle often) and Breacher Squads.  So imagine Deathwatch Vanguard Veterans with Power Axe and Hand Flamer, normal Veteran with 2 Bolt Pistols firing Special Issue Ammo, and Storm Shield Veterans representing those respectively.  This is also ideal for a modeling perspective because you can also mix and match them in a squad, so you don't over-commit your time and resources, because you can just do a few of each type of Marine.

 

I also really, really like the idea of an Ultramarines (or Ultramarines successor) escort, a trust but verify situation, as a small detachment of allies.  I love it when an army visually contains its dramatic tension in and of itself, like there's already a story there even without an enemy force.

 

Just my suggestions, but I actually really like the idea that Loyalist Word Bearers have their Legion Tactic already baked into ATSKNF, so they can use the Deathwatch Codex to avoid an additional Chapter Tactic, and get more 30k-themed gear isntead.

 

Absolutely Marvelous information and suggestions, and I think I am going to go with a few of them.. The thought never crossed my mind to use the Deathwatch Codex at all for some reason. i already own the Collectors Copy of it, and had intended on building a small Deathwatch force at some point, I just hadn't gotten around to it, so this gives me more inspiration to do so. 

 

It really does fit perfect, and with all the specializations and options they have you're right, I could very easily represent and justify the use of the Dex.