Terminator Consolidation

[PeteySödes]

Been thinking abut this for a bit. How would you feel if they consolidated (cut i guess)the heresy era armors?

 

I've only used them in ZM games for fun but I'm just not convinced ill be able to use them better in 40k. Maybe my perspective is scewed as a Space Wolf with access to more gear for my Indomitus.

 

It popped in my head after really wanting to bash a dirty dozen style Terminator unit with various armor styles but not wanting to get to deep into counts as. I feel like being able to field a terminator unit possibly with broader options as any armor is a hobby goldmine.

 

[FlamingDeth]

I don't see any reason why they were introduced in the first place. They cause extra codex bloat and it's not like they introduced new rules for the Mk III or Mk IV kits.

[MARK0SIAN]

I’d prefer they differentiated them further (as well as make Terminators worth taking but that’s another topic). I’d love for them to make Cataphracti a real heavy weapons/shooting terminator platform, Indomitus Terminators as a monster/tank hunter platform and Tartaros armour as a faster moving melee anti-infantry platform.

 

As they are now I agree, I don’t think you’d really lose anything by rolling them all into one datasheet with just generic terminator armour.

[Ishagu]

They need to be differentiated more or consolidated into one sheet.

[Servant of Dante]

Seeing as each suit of terminator armour is supposed to be a relic, I think it’d be cool to be able to mix and match marks of armour in a termi squad.

[PeteySödes]

Heh its a bummer we’re all on the same page here in a weird way. But yea I think it’d be super fun to mix the unit, if not only for visuals.

[Gederas]

I’d prefer they differentiated them further (as well as make Terminators worth taking but that’s another topic). I’d love for them to make Cataphracti a real heavy weapons/shooting terminator platform, Indomitus Terminators as a monster/tank hunter platform and Tartaros armour as a faster moving melee anti-infantry platform.

 

As they are now I agree, I don’t think you’d really lose anything by rolling them all into one datasheet with just generic terminator armour.

This, this, this.

 

Iirc, in 30k each Terminator armour variant is DRASTICALLY different from each other for what they do. They should have it be like that in 40k.

[Ishagu]

 

 

I’d prefer they differentiated them further (as well as make Terminators worth taking but that’s another topic). I’d love for them to make Cataphracti a real heavy weapons/shooting terminator platform, Indomitus Terminators as a monster/tank hunter platform and Tartaros armour as a faster moving melee anti-infantry platform.

 

As they are now I agree, I don’t think you’d really lose anything by rolling them all into one datasheet with just generic terminator armour.

This, this, this.

 

Iirc, in 30k each Terminator armour variant is DRASTICALLY different from each other for what they do. They should have it be like that in 40k.

Are they? In 40k they have the same rules as 30k.

 

4++ and less movement for Cataphractii

5++ and more movement for Tartaros

 

What different rules are you talking about?

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

 

I’d prefer they differentiated them further (as well as make Terminators worth taking but that’s another topic). I’d love for them to make Cataphracti a real heavy weapons/shooting terminator platform, Indomitus Terminators as a monster/tank hunter platform and Tartaros armour as a faster moving melee anti-infantry platform.

 

As they are now I agree, I don’t think you’d really lose anything by rolling them all into one datasheet with just generic terminator armour.

This, this, this.

 

Iirc, in 30k each Terminator armour variant is DRASTICALLY different from each other for what they do. They should have it be like that in 40k.

Are they? In 40k they have the same rules as 30k.

 

4++ and less movement for Cataphractii

5++ and more movement for Tartaros

 

What different rules are you talking about?

Cataphractii can’t overwatch and the ability to make sweeping advances is a huge bonus for Tartaros but other than that they’re very similar.

 

I think Gederas May be referring to the Legion specific terminator squads which do function quite uniquely in a lot of cases. I’ll admit this is not necessarily to do with their armour but giving the chapters in 40k some unique terminator squads would be really cool!

[Brother Tyler]

One glaring problem I see with the rules for the different marks of TDA is that the Chaos Space Marines only have rules for one type (nominally Indomitus). Practically speaking, the Chaos Space Marines would have all of the different marks, so they should have the same rules for varying marks that the loyalists have.

Personally, my solution for appealing to the masses would be to have a single "Terminator Squad" dataslate that would provide the basic rules, regardless of the type(s) of TDA worn. If any models are in Cataphracti, the entire squad suffers the movement penalty. If all of the models are in Cataphracti, they get the enhanced protection. If all of the models are in Tartaros, they get the reduced protection and improved movement. This would all depend upon the models on the table, so a squad of mixed TDA might be reduced down to all models in Cataphracti/Tartaros through battle losses, at which point it will follow the appropriate rules based on the armour type still on the table.

A more drastic change, and probably much more realistic, would be to treat the different marks of TDA the same as the different marks of power armour - the differences are negligible and don't need to be represented by rules. TDA type then becomes an aesthetic issue and game play is streamlined.

[Leif Bearclaw]

One glaring problem I see with the rules for the different marks of TDA is that the Chaos Space Marines only have rules for one type (nominally Indomitus). Practically speaking, the Chaos Space Marines would have all of the different marks, so they should have the same rules for varying marks that the loyalists have.

 

 

Would they though? While the Traitor Legions would have had all the TDA variants during the HH, a lot has changed since then (with major defeats and losses of materiel), and life in the Eye has generally been portrayed as a lot more brutal and cut throat than life in a loyalist Chapter. A Chaos warband has less scope for scared relics and stasis vaults of 'only use in case of emergency'. Any Terminator suits would have been employed in active combat pretty much in perpetuity until they break, and I can't see the Dark Mechanicum churning out Great Crusade era gear as replacements when they could be doing 'insert more interesting mad thing here'. If Chaos need an 'alternate Terminator armour' it should be something new, warp infused and funky, rather than just 'what the loyalists have'.

 

 

Personally, my solution for appealing to the masses would be to have a single "Terminator Squad" dataslate that would provide the basic rules, regardless of the type(s) of TDA worn. If any models are in Cataphracti, the entire squad suffers the movement penalty. If all of the models are in Cataphracti, they get the enhanced protection. If all of the models are in Tartaros, they get the reduced protection and improved movement. This would all depend upon the models on the table, so a squad of mixed TDA might be reduced down to all models in Cataphracti/Tartaros through battle losses, at which point it will follow the appropriate rules based on the armour type still on the table.

Why would you ever run mixed squads under that system? Sounds like you'd be getting only the disadvantages of 'armour X' and none of the advantages. There's no point fielding a few Cataphractii in a squad if they slow everyone down, but you don't get the better durability, might as well run 100% Cataphractii.

 

Just making the armour an aesthetic thing would probably be best, and it would avoid the frustratingly limited weapon selections in the current rules, like Cataphractii only being able to take a heavy flamer.

[Captain Idaho]

This discussion is one of the reasons I think 40K should have had a more dramatic range of stats from the start of 8th edition.

 

Consider if human base soldiers were S3 and T3 with S4 Lasguns, Eldar S4 and T3, Orks S5 and T5, Space Marines S6 and T6 with S6 Bolters...

 

Just think what that sort of range would have done for balance. We wouldn't have needed so many special rules and Terminators could have been T8 and not broken the game because (for example) a Heavy Bolter would be S7, Autocannon S8 and a Dreadnought T10 etc.

 

Then the marks of Space Marines armour could have been differentiated easier with extra toughness as well as saves.

 

Examples... Cataphractii Marines would perhaps have T9 and 2+, Iron Armour power armour could have been T7, MKiv Marines could have had standard T6 but 2+ save, etc.

 

Oh well, GW would unlikely ever take such a dramatic change to their game (balancing it I mean ;) )

[Schlitzaf]

Honeslty we should just roll the Terminators into a single datasheet and give them 3a base, universal 4+ IV. For a unit that is supposed to be designed to shake off plasma is silly that it does literally not that.

[Dracos]

I’m for anything that reduces Codex bloat or streamlines the current set up. It’s counter intuitive but I’d like to see three new Marine dexes. Ultramarine, Adeptus Primaris, and Adeptus Astartes. Plenty of argument against it but A) it would sell and make money B) allow those who don’t want to mix Marines something to focus on instead of this sometimes civil conflict amongst players. C) most importantly, get the UM out of the Vanilla Books ;)

 

I quit playing before HH became a thing on the table but anything that streamlines the books without sacrificing playability I’m all in on.

[templargdt]

This discussion is one of the reasons I think 40K should have had a more dramatic range of stats from the start of 8th edition.

 

Consider if human base soldiers were S3 and T3 with S4 Lasguns, Eldar S4 and T3, Orks S5 and T5, Space Marines S6 and T6 with S6 Bolters...

 

Just think what that sort of range would have done for balance. We wouldn't have needed so many special rules and Terminators could have been T8 and not broken the game because (for example) a Heavy Bolter would be S7, Autocannon S8 and a Dreadnought T10 etc.

 

Then the marks of Space Marines armour could have been differentiated easier with extra toughness as well as saves.

 

Examples... Cataphractii Marines would perhaps have T9 and 2+, Iron Armour power armour could have been T7, MKiv Marines could have had standard T6 but 2+ save, etc.

 

Oh well, GW would unlikely ever take such a dramatic change to their game (balancing it I mean )

Shifting the stats (and maybe off the D6) would significantly improve the game.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The major problem with cat armor is 4” movement totally not worth it. GW way overbalanced SM. Blight Lords have it and even with FNP not really that good

[Brother Tyler]

 

One glaring problem I see with the rules for the different marks of TDA is that the Chaos Space Marines only have rules for one type (nominally Indomitus). Practically speaking, the Chaos Space Marines would have all of the different marks, so they should have the same rules for varying marks that the loyalists have.

Would they though?

 

 

Deathshroud and Blightlord Terminators are in Cataphracti and Scarab Occult Terminators are in Tartaros. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

One glaring problem I see with the rules for the different marks of TDA is that the Chaos Space Marines only have rules for one type (nominally Indomitus). Practically speaking, the Chaos Space Marines would have all of the different marks, so they should have the same rules for varying marks that the loyalists have.

Would they though?

 

 

Deathshroud and Blightlord Terminators are in Cataphracti and Scarab Occult Terminators are in Tartaros. 

 

Fair enough, although you could also argue that neither DG or Sons are exactly 'normal' for CSMs and don't represent the general state of CSM arms (and both do also fit the 'warp infused and funky' idea). After all, even Abby's changed out his Cataphractii plate between the Heresy and m41.

 

But this is the same old 'Chaos vs Imperial' argument isn't it? Similar arguments can and have been made that CSMs should get Land Speeders, Razorbacks, Grav weaponry, Drop Pods, variant Land Raiders, Whirlwinds etc. Most of which are far more glaring from a 'does this make sense?' standpoint imo than not having rare marks of TDA (although if it were up to me Chaos would get none of these, I'd much rather see new things rather than 'spiky Imperial gear'). Combining the 3 types of TDA into one choice would not be a bad idea (especially for Catapractii, as the low M and lack of heavies does not compensate for the better save), whether for reducing the feared 'bloat' or just 'yeah, there's not really enough of a distinction to justify this'. 'Chaos don't get them', however, is not a good reason, just like eliminating Ironclad Dreadnoughts from SMs because SW, BA and DA don't get them wouldn't be a good justification.

[Brother Tyler]

But this is the same old 'Chaos vs Imperial' argument isn't it? Similar arguments can and have been made that CSMs should get Land Speeders, Razorbacks, Grav weaponry, Drop Pods, variant Land Raiders, Whirlwinds etc.

Actually, this is a different argument.

 

The examples you provided are units that the Chaos Space Marines don't have.

 

The Cataphracti/Tartaros argument is about commonality in rules for items that the Chaos Space Marines do have. As a general rule, items that the two factions both have tend to share the same rules. A prime example of this is [indomitus] Terminator armour. At the start of 3rd edition, Terminator armour simply provided a 2+ armour save. When the invulnerable save was introduced via Chapter Approved, both factions benefited from it even though the lore justification for it was the fragment of the Emperor's armour in the crux terminatus, something the Chaos Space Marines wouldn't have. Ever since that time, the rules for Terminator armour have been identical for both loyalists and Chaos Space Marines.

 

Characterizing the argument as "'Chaos don't get them'" is a grossly inaccurate oversimplification. Chaos has them; and for the faction to not have corresponding rules to represent wargear it clearly has is inconsistent with GW's current methodologies and also inconsistent with the lore.

 

All that said, my personal preference is that GW just get rid of special rules for varying marks of TDA, treating them the same way they treat the variations in the different marks of power armour.

[Gederas]

One glaring problem I see with the rules for the different marks of TDA is that the Chaos Space Marines only have rules for one type (nominally Indomitus). Practically speaking, the Chaos Space Marines would have all of the different marks, so they should have the same rules for varying marks that the loyalists have.

Would they though?

 Deathshroud and Blightlord Terminators are in Cataphracti and Scarab Occult Terminators are in Tartaros. 

Fair enough, although you could also argue that neither DG or Sons are exactly 'normal' for CSMs and don't represent the general state of CSM arms (and both do also fit the 'warp infused and funky' idea). After all, even Abby's changed out his Cataphractii plate between the Heresy and m41.

Actually, the most recent description of Abaddon's armour (previous codex, I believe 7th Edition or Traitor's Hate) refers to it SPECIFICALLY as a set of heavily customized Cataphractii armour.

[Schlitzaf]

Honeslty; if I may be so bold, the whole divergent terminator armor concept. Came off to me personally, as a heresy boner. As much as I can see why folks wanted these new armor types and such.

 

It came off to me as pandering to heresy players and lovers. While ignoring 40k ones. Many of the newer kits; infantry ones espacially were 30k kits. And then given as ‘ancient war relics’ from the heresy. Which for one reason or another; I simply don’t care for heresy and have even less reason why my army would have these most ancient of relics.

 

Terminator variants are 100% a casualty of that feeling. Which to expand on my prior statement here what I do. Get rid of all terminator armor variants. As I said give units in terminator armor +1 attack and increase IV to 4+.

 

Second for loyalists (codex compliant) have Assault and RegTerminator datasheets with following addition.

(Snooty) Terminator

1) Any model may replace their Power Fist with lighting claw in addition to other current options

2) For Heavy Weapon list add Reaper Autocannon

3) Sargeant May replace Storm Bolter with Plasma Or voikite.

4) Sargeant May take a Grenade Harness

 

Assault Termibator

1) Sargeant May take a Grenade Harness

2) left claw may be replace with Storm Bolter or Storm Shield

3) right claw may be replace with thunder hammer

 

Those are my thoughts

[MARK0SIAN]

Honeslty; if I may be so bold, the whole divergent terminator armor concept. Came off to me personally, as a heresy boner. As much as I can see why folks wanted these new armor types and such.

 

It came off to me as pandering to heresy players and lovers. While ignoring 40k ones. Many of the newer kits; infantry ones espacially were 30k kits. And then given as ‘ancient war relics’ from the heresy. Which for one reason or another; I simply don’t care for heresy and have even less reason why my army would have these most ancient of relics.

Heresy has always been its own game system. It’s not pandering to create rules specific to your game system that don’t translate well into another system. That’s like saying the Necromunda team are pandering to Necromunda players and ignoring 40k ones.

 

The problem with the terminator armour in 40k does not stem from its creation in Heresy, it stems from whoever on the 40k rules team decided to incorporate it into 40k and did a poor job of it.

[Kinstryfe]

I actually would love to see all terminators rolled into one datasheet. There are already veteran units who can mix and match equipment to an extent, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to me that if your elite of the elite decide they need a missile launcher and a guy with a giant hammer that they can't take just that for the mission at hand. Do away with differentiation of the three different marks and just use one profile. The different kits would basically be for variety and to kit out wargear options.

[Panzer]

I don't mind them having different datasheets, but they should be more different then.

 

Also arguing with DG Terminators and TSons Terminators doesn't really work as those really are completely different from regular Chaos Terminators already.

Blightlords and Deathshrouds with their T5, Sv4++/5+++, completely different weapon options (and bodyguard rules in case of the DS) as well as the TSons' Scarab Occult Terminators with their All is Dust and a Sorcerer is worlds apart from regular Chaos Terminators unlike loyalist Cataphractii/Tartaros Terminators vs regular loyalist Terminators. Those are more like the DA Deathwing Knights or Grey Knight Paladins.

[BrainFireBob]

Eh, I would like chaos cataphractii due to lack of storm shields

 

EDIT: On reflection, I would rather Chaos had all types and imps only Indomitus, reflecting their age