Terminator Consolidation

[Schlitzaf]

 

Honeslty; if I may be so bold, the whole divergent terminator armor concept. Came off to me personally, as a heresy boner. As much as I can see why folks wanted these new armor types and such.

 

It came off to me as pandering to heresy players and lovers. While ignoring 40k ones. Many of the newer kits; infantry ones espacially were 30k kits. And then given as ‘ancient war relics’ from the heresy. Which for one reason or another; I simply don’t care for heresy and have even less reason why my army would have these most ancient of relics.

Heresy has always been its own game system. It’s not pandering to create rules specific to your game system that don’t translate well into another system. That’s like saying the Necromunda team are pandering to Necromunda players and ignoring 40k ones.

 

The problem with the terminator armour in 40k does not stem from its creation in Heresy, it stems from whoever on the 40k rules team decided to incorporate it into 40k and did a poor job of it.

Um I am talking about 7th edition

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

Honeslty; if I may be so bold, the whole divergent terminator armor concept. Came off to me personally, as a heresy boner. As much as I can see why folks wanted these new armor types and such.

 

It came off to me as pandering to heresy players and lovers. While ignoring 40k ones. Many of the newer kits; infantry ones espacially were 30k kits. And then given as ‘ancient war relics’ from the heresy. Which for one reason or another; I simply don’t care for heresy and have even less reason why my army would have these most ancient of relics.

Heresy has always been its own game system. It’s not pandering to create rules specific to your game system that don’t translate well into another system. That’s like saying the Necromunda team are pandering to Necromunda players and ignoring 40k ones.

 

The problem with the terminator armour in 40k does not stem from its creation in Heresy, it stems from whoever on the 40k rules team decided to incorporate it into 40k and did a poor job of it.

Um I am talking about 7th edition

So am I, even in 7th it was a separate game system, it just used the same base rules system. It was never intended that everything in it should be used in 40k or that it could only use things that fit in with 40k. It’s why there’s no breacher squads, no phalanx warders, no palatine blades, no iron circle, no destroyer squads etc in 40k. They were were designed for a separate game. Same with the Terminator variants, they were designed for the Heresy game and its not a case of pandering just because they don’t then fit with 40k.

[MadGreek]

Yeah, being selfish, I would like to be able to take Thunder Hammer / Storm Shield on Cataphractii armour, it matches my army aesthetic better. Having the three Marks of armour be identical rules wise and available to accept any load out would be my preference. 

 

That said, if we (I mean the designers I guess) still wanted something to differentiate squad abilities, tie benefits or hindrances to equipment load out.  For example (and I am doing this w/o references, and I don't know the rules that well) if your squad includes the big missile launcher or perhaps the assault cannons (or any other "heavy" weapons) the squad cannot sweeping advance and / or speed is reduced. If your squad is just lighting claws or bolters and fists, then speed is increased and you can sweeping advance. If you are lugging around TH / SS then normal speed, no sweeping advance.  Something like that.

[Ishagu]

It was a seperate meta, you could say, but it was the same game system. It was like a DLC for 40k.

[MARK0SIAN]

It was a seperate meta, you could say, but it was the same game system. It was like a DLC for 40k.

The same game system does not make it the same game. It was produced by a different studio, with different models, different weapons, different wargear, different units, different force orgs, different missions and different backgrounds.

 

The point is, the HERESY team were free to design whatever they wanted for the HERESY game and were under no obligation to make sure it worked in 40k, if they were we couldn’t even have had Primarchs in Heresy let alone all the unique weapons/vehicles/units etc. It’s not pandering to do so, it’s what they should be doing. It’s not the Heresy teams fault that when the 40k team incorporated the different armour marks into the main game they did a bad job of it.

[Ishagu]

You say that but I played Heresy armies against 40k forces all the time.

It all worked perfectly fine.

 

Losing that cross comparability hurt them a lot.

[Panzer]

Whether 30k and 40k are to be considered the same game or not is probably an interesting topic too but pretty offtopic here, no? It's about Terminators in 40k after all.

[MARK0SIAN]

You say that but I played Heresy armies against 40k forces all the time.

It all worked perfectly fine.

 

Losing that cross comparability hurt them a lot.

I’m not arguing that, I agree, but none of that alters what I’m saying that the original assertion that the rules writers were pandering to one set of players at the expense of others is not true or fair.

 

However, SfPanzer is correct and we are straying too far off topic so I’ll say no more on the matter. On-topic, I’m still with my original preference that they further differentiate the marks of Terminator armour in 40k.

[The Unseen]

Roll all the terminators into one datasheet, make that datasheet GOOD, like 3 wounds, T5, 2+, ignore the first point of AP, and open up the armory to them.

They are the THE chapter elite, let them take whatever.

Give them master crafted storm bolters (sternguard guns but rapid fire 2) storm shields, claws, hammers, fists, combi-weapons, choom, plasma blast guns, any heavy weapon that currently has a termie arm for it, etc.

Which is currently I think assault cannon, reaper autocannon, multi-melta (fw only though I think) heavy flamer, and the DA have a plasma cannon, plus the typhoon on top.

 

Having all the different weapon choices spread out over 3 datasheets is silly, almost as silly as not letting the sergeant take anything but a damn power sword.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I could see it going either way. However, given 8th Edition has kinda "flattened" the differences between things, with the rules getting a bit samey, I'd more prefer that they do what they have with the different power armour marks, and just have them all as "Terminator Armour", with a unified weapons listing.

[PeteySödes]

Heh well if we’re all basically in agreement, I’m just going to do it.

[Halandaar]

Agreed; for Cataphractii and Tartaros to justify having their own sheets, they need to be more divergent than they are now.

 

Otherwise, just throw everything together and allow them to take any existing Temrinator Weapon in (almost) any Combination.

 

 

Which is currently I think assault cannon, reaper autocannon, multi-melta (fw only though I think) heavy flamer, and the DA have a plasma cannon, plus the typhoon on top.

 

Big yes. I really wish GW had given Terminators access to cool new Heavy Weapons over time; let SW take Helfrost Cannons and BA take Frag Cannons for example.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I mean, you've also got the issue that with GW's policy of "everything must have its own datasheet", we can't have a Tartaros Captain, or a Catephractii Librarian, etc, at the moment, only standard Indomitus. Really though, does the Catephractii suit offer that much more protection comparatively compared to the difference between, say, MkIII and MkVII armour? If they can roll all different versions of power armour together under the same rules, they can do the same for terminator armour.

[Schlitzaf]

Just end the heresy point; GW released Plastic Kits, GW decided to give the Marks rules when the could expanded the regular 2 terminator squad rules and then said “the difference is s degree of detail, when we aren’t dealing with marine v marine etc’.

 

It felt like heresy pandering sense for a long stretch of time only new marine kits I could use were these heresy era Plastic kits. But that another tangent.

 

————

Glad to see my answer (if not method I got to the answer) is one we all agree on.

[MegaVolt87]

Make them a one page data card, with the current different stat lines, consolidate the wargear so anyone can use them. This way we can have reaper cannon cata's, indomni sarges with Volkite/ plasma blaster etc. You could even roll in the assault termi options here too to get rid of another data sheet.Then just have the points like they are now in the back of the codex. And let CSM have the same consolidated termi access like I stated (well, minus storm shields, storm bolters and assault cannons). 

[Toxichobbit]

Make them a one page data card, with the current different stat lines, consolidate the wargear so anyone can use them. This way we can have reaper cannon cata's, indomni sarges with Volkite/ plasma blaster etc. You could even roll in the assault termi options here too to get rid of another data sheet.Then just have the points like they are now in the back of the codex. And let CSM have the same consolidated termi access like I stated (well, minus storm shields, storm bolters and assault cannons). 

 

Yes please!

 

That would also allow Cataphractii with assault cannons, so those lovely FW ones that only HH BA & IF currently use.

[Ishagu]

You can definitely have them as a single datasheet

[Guest MistaGav]

They should at least combine the assault and regular terminators into one data sheet like Deathwing can. I'd really like to see more weapon combinations too, Terminators with Storm Shields/Storm Bolters would be amazing and look awesome too!

There are a lot of data sheets that could do with combining in the Space Marine codexes.

[UnkyHamHam]

I mostly agree with the 1 data sheet consolidation. Been preaching that for years with the 2 Indomitus types. My only complaint or grievance would be the "rule of 3" shutting down some really fun terminator builds.

[Volt]

TBH most space marine units should be consolidated to a single datasheet, I would personally just break it down to several different sheets with a whole lot of options in style of 2e. Especially since Chapters are refocusing on Legion org's anyway.

 

1) Neophytes

 

2) Initiates

 

3) Veterani

 

4) Primaris
a) Phobos
Tacticus
c) Gravis

 

Neophytes get anything scouts have access to across the board and can combine camo cloaks with anything. Initiates are devastators, assault marines, and tactical marines rolled into a single unit. With the only limitations behind what weapons can be taken with jump packs. Veterani are all veteran units folded into one - Company Veterans, Sternguard, Vanguard, Terminators, etc. Not only allow mixed unit squads but freely disperse the weapons amongst them and just stop silly combos from happening - ie you can't take a heavy grav cannon on a terminator for obvious reasons. And just roll all Primaris into one bigger sheet with you selecting a type of power armor and then getting access to all wargear and weapons in that bracket to mix and match.

 

Oh and bring back artificer armor too. Not only should HQ's have access to it, but no reason why you shouldn't be able to trick out a Company Veteran squad with artificer armor, they've got more bling than most Captain models anyway.

 

[MegaVolt87]

I mostly agree with the 1 data sheet consolidation. Been preaching that for years with the 2 Indomitus types. My only complaint or grievance would be the "rule of 3" shutting down some really fun terminator builds.

 

Yeah, but look what you would be getting. Storm shield + storm/combi bolter, thunder hammer + volkite/plasma blaster vet sarge, lightning claw + SB/CB at different Armour marks and price points. Rule of three is worth the sacrifice for such a tool box unit of possibilities. 15-30 termi's, not including HQ's is plenty enough then, and I am saying this as a hopeless termi addict. 

[Marshal Arthur]

I’d love to see them consolidated a use the different armors as more of an aesthetic choice. On top of that maybe remove the heavy weapon restrictions on terminators. I’m sure salamanders would love a terminator squad all armed with heavy flamers, or give everyone power swords and storm shields, or power fists and combi-meltas instead of forcing them to take an anti-armor melee weapon and anti-infantry gun.

[FlamingDeth]

I mostly agree with the 1 data sheet consolidation. Been preaching that for years with the 2 Indomitus types. My only complaint or grievance would be the "rule of 3" shutting down some really fun terminator builds.

As a Deathwing player I can assure you that terminators are so expensive that rule of 3 has never come in to play.

[Volt]

 

I mostly agree with the 1 data sheet consolidation. Been preaching that for years with the 2 Indomitus types. My only complaint or grievance would be the "rule of 3" shutting down some really fun terminator builds.

As a Deathwing player I can assure you that terminators are so expensive that rule of 3 has never come in to play.

 

Rule of three for the most part is a dumb rule anyway seeing as how it doesn't actually address broken stuff. It's a silly band-aid that should only be utilized if something is actually broken. Nobody is going to be sore over somebody bringing 6 terminator squads to a game or 6 Striking Scorpions for example.

[Dracos]

The answer is fixing Terminators. Spam is bad for the game, always has been.