Some Thoughts on Competitive Custodes Primarily "Mono-Build"

[shanewatts]

I am not sure I would say that mono custodes is an exercise in futility, but it is harder without a side of soup. As mono you are more vulnerable to rock paper sissors, so if you know what your bad match ups are and you pair into them, play accordingly.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I love Custodes and Blood Angels - they compliment each other well. I used to bring a double Battalion with Deathwatch as well but they are really just a gate keeper now.

 

Hey Prot how are you doing ?

[Prot]

So I'm thinking of something I can live with but do okay with.

 

How about AdMech? (I have lots of Admech).

 

Dual Batallion:

2 x Engineseers

2 x 5 rangers (1-2 Arquebus?)

1 x 5 Vanguard

 

Custodes:

Valoris

SC on Dawneagle (WL - Superior Creation?)

 

3 x 3 Custodians (2-3 shields total)

 

3 Jet bikes

 

Vexilus Praetor (Manifica)

 

Telemon /cannon + Caestus)

 

Caladius Tank

 

Assassin

 

That's more competitive than vanilla Custodes?

 

I feel like if I'm allying my AdMech that their vehicles might be better....? I don't know. Using Trajan is something I want to do but might not be optimal for this list.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That is a good list for sure. Lots of sweet sweet CPs.

[sultansean]

I think that list looks good. 

 

A couple tweak I would make are:

 

I think with the bodies you do have that you could run double storm cannon on the Telemon and not worry too much about it getting touched.

 

Definitely take the arquebus if you can, paired with a Vindicare it is a great way to make CP with the kill a character strat.

 

Think about making Vexilla the warlord, so you can shoulder the mantle with your Bike Captain. I'm not sure if this is the best choice. I have been running mine with radiant mantle or impregnable mind, but I've found the bike captain normally dies before the vexilla anyways.   

[masterstrider]

I've run the following with great success. Had a few tough match ups, but such is life.

 

List 1:

Battalion +5CP

2 x Shield Cap on Bike, misericordia

3 x 3 Custodian Guard (sword, sword, spear)

 

Vanguard +1CP

Trajann

5 Allarus with axe, misericordia

6 Wardens with axe, misericordia (Deep strike -1CP)

1 Vexillus Praetor Magnifica with axe

 

9CP - 2CP (Assassin) - 1CP (Deep strike). Take 3++ save relics usually on either Shield Captains or Vexilla.

 

List 2:

Battalion +5CP

Trajann

Shield Cap on Bike, misericordia

3 x 3 Custodian Guard (sword, spear, spear)

5 Allarus with axe, misericordia

1 Vexillus Praetor Magnifica with axe

2 Telemons with Arachnus Storm Cannons

 

8CP - 2CP (Assassin) and any relics. 

 

I'm testing List 2 a bit now that there are more to help against shooty/flyer evasive armies.

[Prot]

I like list two since it’s so similar to what I was playing. I think the speed of the army might be an issue against the flyer lists I’ve been facing.

 

@sultan... that second storm cannon might be possible. Ideally I’d like to use both my Telemons but it’s too tight.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Using Trajan is something I want to do but might not be optimal for this list.

 

 

I think he’s auto include simply due to his awesome Guillimanesque buffs. Castle him with the Caladius and Telemon is super strong.

 

@ Masterstrider - I like the second list a lot better. It’s got the long range high power shooting Custodes need.

[sultansean]

So if money was no option I think that either of the following lists focusing on forge world units would be pretty good. Basically take the best unit we have, the Caladius tank, and take three. The first list is a more standard battalion. Pallas and Caladius can act as flying screens while the Guard take the centre and the Aquilons deep strike in.  The second is an outrider and a spearhead and has very few CP but more mobility and screen and more shots. I'm thinking you basically just have units running away from the enemy in your deployment zone while the Aquilons deepstrike in to his. I am thinking that in the second list if the plan is to not have a centre for the enemy to come at Trajan could be replaced by a bike captain, since the Caladius' will be flying all over the place anyways.    

 

List 1

Battalion +5CP

2CP (Assassin)

Trajann

Shield Cap on Bike

3 x 3 Custodian Guard (sword, spear, spear)

3 Aquilon 

1 Vexillus Praetor Magnifica with spear

1 Pallas 

3 x Caladius 

 

 

List 2 

 

Detachment +2CP

2CP (Assassin)

Trajann

Shield Cap on Bike

4x Aquilon (3 Bolter 1 Firepike) 

1 Vexillus Praetor Magnifica with axe

2x Pallas 

3x Vertus Praetors 

3 x Caladius

[duz_]

Trajann is a boss especially now with points reduction

 

This list just won bug eater I believe

 

Battalion

2x shield captains in bikes

3x 3 Custodian guard

2x vexilia

3x pallas

3x caladius

 

Although if we keep seeing so many pallas and caladius on the table I only see the points going up

[Prot]

The Caladius is cruising for some negative attention from GW. I sure hope not, but if someone from GW sees this, it'll probably happen. 

 

I think the Pallas on paper seems good for any custodes army that's largely footbound/without allies. I don't think it's too good though. I mean Venoms (DE) are insane value. I wouldn't put the Pallas in the same category, I just feel like on paper it matches up well with the army's needs.

 

This weekend I will be test driving my list (above).

 

My problem is I play too many units I like the look of which gets me into hot water in the hyper competitive environment. (not that it's horrible to do this as it gives me a fun challenge, but sometimes I go too far).

 

We'll see how it works out. I just Primed a Caladius sent to me from a buddy in the UK. I hope it earns a paint job!

[duz_]

 

So here's what happened... last year I went to an ITC GT with what I felt was a 'fun' list but I went 4-1. I'm going to be honest... I hated my last 3 games. The player's I faced at the top tables care waaay too much about ITC points compared to me. This year I brought one of the worst lists I could think of while still having cool models to show off. I had a great time. Great games, and I still did very well battle point wise. 

 

Short version: I've won tournaments. I don't care about placement specifically, but the quality of those games is what matters to me at this stage in my 'competitive' career.

 

 

 

My problem is I play too many units I like the look of which gets me into hot water in the hyper competitive environment. (not that it's horrible to do this as it gives me a fun challenge, but sometimes I go too far).

 

 

 

Based on you first statement, then the latter is really what you want to do then. With a less optimised list your more likely to avoid those crummy hyper competitive match ups in rounds 3 - 5/6. (Because you're more likely to lose :lol: )

 

I have a similar experience and view. Last year at MWC I some how won my first 2 match ups and my 3rd and 4th rounds sucked as I dropped back down the ladder. Irony of that weekend was that the list was meant to be subpar so I would lose my first couple of rounds 

Base on this previous statement of yours, then below is really what you want to do then. In a less optimised list your more likely to avoid those crummy hyper competitve match ups in rounds 3 - 5/6.

 

I have a similiar experience and view, last year when I was at MWC I some how won my first 2 match ups and my 3rd and 4th rounds sucked as I dropped back down the ladder

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Good luck this weekend Prot... May Valdor bless your dice. /thumbsup

[Prot]

Good luck this weekend Prot... May Valdor bless your dice. /thumbsup

 

Thanks, but I might need the Emperor's royal baked dice. lol

[Riot Earp]

Hello my fellow Custodes players. I placed 7th out of 24 last week in an Monotournament with Captain 1x3 Agamatus 1x3 VetrusPraetus 1x Pallas 1 x Calladius and one Telemon double Arachnus. I had one big win against Genestealer Horde Army and 2 minor losses against alaitoc eldar.

 

No i beefed the list up for 1750 ITC and will test how it will do. Low CP and Modelcount. Some ppl playing 100+ Orks. We will se if i prevail with em.

 

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium – Adeptus Custodes) [92 PL, 1,748pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot + Use Beta Rules
+ HQ +
Shield Captain in Allarus Terminator Armor [8 PL, 124pts]: Castellan Axe, Radiant Mantle, Warlord . Eagle’s Eye
+ Elites +
Contemptor-Achillus Dreadnought (Beta) [8 PL, 140pts]: 2x Lastrum Storm Bolter
+ Fast Attack +
Pallas Grav-Attack (Beta) [5 PL, 100pts]: Twin Arachnus Blaze Cannon
Vertus Praetors x7 [35 PL, 630pts] . Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter . Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter . Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter . Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter . Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter . Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter . Vertus Praetor: Hurricane Bolter
+ Heavy Support +
Caladius Grav-tank (Beta) [10 PL, 210pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon
Telemon Heavy Dreadnought (Beta) [13 PL, 272pts]: Arachnus Storm Cannon, Arachnus Storm Cannon, Spiculus Bolt Launcher
Telemon Heavy Dreadnought (Beta) [13 PL, 272pts]: Arachnus Storm Cannon, Arachnus Storm Cannon, Spiculus Bolt Launcher
++ Total: [92 PL, 1,748pts] ++

[shanewatts]

Riot Earp -  If I were you, I would drop the Achillus for a Vexilla with magnifica. The -1 to Hit makes dividends vs shooty armies.

[duz_]

That's a ballsy list! :lol:

[Riot Earp]

Shanewatts i see your point but i position the telemons in totally different locations to minimize the lock up effect. I would agree if i would play 2 caladius gravs.

[shanewatts]

I was thinking more from a turn 1 perspective, in addition to the rest of your army past turn 1. It is very easy to keep the vexilla up with vertus praetors and your grav tanks. The vexilla keeps them alive a lot longer.

[Prot]

Shanewatts i see your point but i position the telemons in totally different locations to minimize the lock up effect. I would agree if i would play 2 caladius gravs.

 

Riot, that's a fine result, but I gotta agree with Duz, it's ballsy. I think of Custodes as having some of the best Strategems in the game and you're obviously very comfortable (I assume) not using them? 

 

That list is extremely aggressive. It's almost as aggressive as Shane's list, but in a different way. 

 

I do understand what you're saying about the Vexilla. I often find my 2nd turn on that I'm trying to make my mind up on where to focus the Vexilla as the army starts to separate. 

 

I was thinking more from a turn 1 perspective, in addition to the rest of your army past turn 1. It is very easy to keep the vexilla up with vertus praetors and your grav tanks. The vexilla keeps them alive a lot longer.

 

It's interesting how Riot has opted to use those points. Instead of having that defensive option, he's adding more to the damage output. More targets to hit at approximately 20 points difference. But on the other hand, giving up first turn to an Astra type list, or flyers, it can be very painful. I know against Tau I live off that Vexilla for a turn or two.

[Prot]

So I did a mini batrep on my blog because I did a few games in a short period of time (actually broke my personal record of playing 9 games within 7 days).

 

One of those games was with the "competitive" and now defunct idea of "mono" Custodes list that I have developed from feedback in this thread. 

 

This particular game was against Tau, and I used my Graia AdMech which hemmoraged points against Tau. The Magnifica saved a few lives I'm sure, but even with pretty strong terrain I lost about half my Custodes, on the looong footslog to the Tau Castle.

 

His list wasn't super competitive this game, where as I was trying to step it up a bit with my Custodes. So he only had one Riptide, but his Broadsides, and plethora of drones were still (typically) annoying. 

 

I confess I had little confidence in the list. I don't know why my Telemon's don't seem to do a heck of a lot. Mine widdled down to 4 wounds by Turn 2, and was eventually destroyed, while the Caladius actually pulled its weight.

 

About halfway through our Maelstrom game I knew I could not win. The Bikes were half gone in T1 even in full cover, and within the Magnifica... he unloaded a boatload into them for he rightfully fears them.

 

I had to poke out, lost all the bikes after an assault, but I leveraged a squad he put out and performed a Stooping Dive with my SC on Dawneagle. 

 

I lived, killed some fish, and took a ton of damage, but Superior Creation kept me hanging on by a thread. The Custodes Guardians did almost nothing this game but walk to a slow, grinding death. So I broke a mid cover point of ruins in the middle of the table at about turn 4 and I said to myself I am finished unless I can tie up some of the Broadsides (they don't have fly) and try to get rid of his drones, and stop the 'reroll hits' , 'reroll wounds' with his Riptide combo. 

 

I perform a second Stooping dive in the game, use Trajann's Moment Shackle to retrieve an entire, single CP back! (I contemplated using a CP to reroll the D3 as a joke.) 

 

This put me in a place where I would force 90% of his army to shoot at my Shield captain while I sat my Caladius on a "Defend" objective point forcing him to make a tough decision. 

 

He put 5 marker lights on the Caladius because he thought the Shield Captain was toast......

 

 

Here is that Shield Captain about to perform a Stooping dive in his charge phase, towards an HQ hidden behind that can/tower. What I don't know is if you can "overwatch" a Stooping Dive? 

 

Anyway, before I did this Stooping Dive, he started to panic as the Shield Captain was not dying! So he put a pile of Cyclonic blasters into the Captain. 9 wounds in total. They are 2 wounds so at this point failing 2 means I'm dead, and likely the game is over.

 

I pass 2 saves, fail the 3rd... I CP reroll that fail, and continue to pass the next 7 saves on a 3++; saving all 9. The look on his face was fantastic. I couldn't believe it myself, and now even though the Caladius was his original target (with 5 maker lights) he had to finish the Captain, which he didn't and I slid in there like I said with Stooping Dive, killed his HQ, and consolidated into the 3 man Broadside squad, rendering it useless for overwatch.

 

So my turn comes and of course I finally get my army into close combat with Guardians against his Ghost Kheel and Broadsides, with some other fish people mixed in where ever I could grab them.

 

He conceded at this point because the army was mostly dead, and he ran out of drones.

 

I felt like the list may have sucked. I didn't have much to do with it because I just watched it die, as I tried to hug cover, and by the time I reached him the game was pretty much his to lose, and I took a complete moment of desperation and thought out a 2 move finish that would have me using Stooping dive to stall him out, and I got purely lucky.

 

Also I didn't know if he would overwatch my stooping dive, if anyone could answer that I'd appreciate it. But otherwise my list felt too wimpy, and slow. I just don't want to do more bikes. 

[shanewatts]

 

Also I didn't know if he would overwatch my stooping dive, if anyone could answer that I'd appreciate it. But otherwise my list felt too wimpy, and slow. I just don't want to do more bikes. 

 

As long as his units are capable of doing overwatch (LoS/Range and not within 1" of an enemy,) they can overwatch a Stoop. It is still a normal charge, just a semi janky one.

[Prot]

 

 

Also I didn't know if he would overwatch my stooping dive, if anyone could answer that I'd appreciate it. But otherwise my list felt too wimpy, and slow. I just don't want to do more bikes. 

 

As long as his units are capable of doing overwatch (LoS/Range and not within 1" of an enemy,) they can overwatch a Stoop. It is still a normal charge, just a semi janky one.

 

 

Thanks for confirmation.

 

So this was the second Stooping Dive I performed with this Shield Captain. I calculated his dual melta wielding HQ could not see and would be the primary target, and providing I kill him (almost a given) I would base the Broadsides which were a major threat. 

 

It feels super cheezy to win a game like this. but I felt it was all I had going for me since even my Telemon was having trouble removing enough drones (Drones feel just ridiculous with invulns and 5++) 

 

So I feel like I need to rethink the list. It had real problems against armies like this. 

[duz_]

Don't get me started on shield drones <_<

 

Especially ones that hide in cover out of LoS conveniently close to suits they can throw themselves in front of

 

 

Edit: had a chance to read the full debrief

 

So I wouldn't use a maelstrom match up vs tau as a good guide on effectiveness

Tau are probably one of the harder counters to custard creams especially if there's limited terrain to hide your charging units (ie limit overwatch)

 

Also I'm gonna assume you mostly play itc up there so your guardians would be of more use holding objectives and contesting them.

 

You managed to scrape out a win so I'd try again against are more competitive tau list with itc missions.

 

And yes seeing as your charging he'd get to overwatch

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

So you can use Stooping Dive even if the opponent doesn’t declare a charge - interesting ! :)