b1soul Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 So the primarchs could be described, mildly, as a fractured brotherhood, and this fractured brotherhood was ripe for Chaos exploitation and strife. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, how would you have revised the primarch/legiones astartes project to best serve the Imperium's interests? Try to stay closer to what the Emperor actually did (so Malcador's suggestion of make them sisters would be too out there) For example, perhaps create only one extremely loyal primarch (e.g. Royal Dorn) and have him command a 2 million strong legion? Or only create the loyalist primarchs? Or create 20 Roboute Guillimans? How about create all the primarchs but keep them in stasis and harvest gene-seed only; have the legion masters report directly to the Emperor, or have senior Custodes serve as legion command? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 The biggest one, I think, would be: Not let the Primarchs get scattered across the Galaxy by the chaos gods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5326822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 Yeah after the chaos gods took them, find them, confine them to Terra in the mountain Corax stayed in after the dropsite massacre, let Malcador give them at least 100 years of tutoring, be a good space dad. Have custodes rule the legions, Primarchs number 3 in command chain not number 2- if Malcador sees them as stable/ fixed the broken ones. But no, makes more sense to give the crazies the keys to the kingdom instead..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5326828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
battle captain corpus Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 I have always thought that whatever the outcome the Chaos Gods would’ve intervened in some way, even without Argel Tal doing what he did etc. BCC Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5326882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted June 6, 2019 Author Share Posted June 6, 2019 Let's say scattering is a given and so is recovery. Same primarch and planet pairings. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5326892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgoff Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 Help Angron kill his slavers. Cleanse WB from any faith taint. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5326952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_r_parker Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 I think first off, tell the Primarchs about the Chaos Gods and trust in them not to immediately turn. Maybe don’t tell the whole Imperium, or the majority of the Astartes, but at least tell the guys at the top making the majority of the decisions about them. Maybe then the Primarchs would see some of the temptations coming, the Thousand Sons wouldn’t be so complacent about their powers, and the Word Bearers might have a chance of not falling completely. Secondly, the Big E needs to trust the Primarchs with his master plan, and his reason for leaving the Great Crusade. So many plot lines would be avoided if the Emperor just trusted the Primarchs a little more. Thirdly, there needed a better way to “decommission” the Astartes after the Great Crusade (or should they decide to rebel, for instance). Having a single Legion being designated for Censure isn’t a great plan, maybe some sort of kill-switch embedded in the Astartes gene seed that can be activated by a virus (and then put into dispersion bombs). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5326975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 In brief, just don't be too precious about 'having' to reunite a Primarch with his Legion. Plus the whole 'be more honest about chaos and your schemes' thing. Let Angron and Mortarion kill themselves, both Legions seem to have been better off without their Primarchs anyway. Either just burn Colchis (really, who thought letting a Primarch raised on a shrine world command a Legion in a secular Imperium was a good idea?), or only let Lorgar join the Iconoclasts after an extensive re-education period under Empy, Malcador, and his more established brothers. Similar for Curze, or at the very least move substantial Imperial Law Enforcement assets onto Nostromo, so the VIII's recruitment pool isn't poisoned by the sickest sick s the crimeworld can produce. Pay closer attention to the 1Ksons and the flesh change, especially once Magnus is found. Be entirely straight with Magnus about the dangers of the warp, so hopefully he doesn't damn himself and his Legion to Tzeentch for a 'cure' to the flesh change. Or let the Legion die while having the Talons seize Magnus to be used as the Golden Throne battery that was apparently his destiny anyway. Pertuarbo needed more attention/education away from Olympia. Maybe some more father/son bonding time with Empy and Malc before assuming command would have mellowed him somewhat. If he still ordered the decimation of the IV he should have been removed from command immediately. Plus, let him do some architecture and world building instead of just sieges, destruction and fighting. Gulliman, Dorn etc. were allowed to do more than just break things, extend the same courtesy to Perty. Make it Imperial law that captured weaponry must be extensively screened for both technological and psychic shenanigans before being used. Which would hopefully pick up the Daemon in the blade of the Laer before it screwed up Fulgrim. Also being more truthful about chaos and warp might make Fulgrim savvy enough to freak out when a sword starts talking to him, instead of listening. Alpharius and Horus were more victims of circumstance, so fixing everything else probably fixes them too. Although drumming 'the xenos is not to be trusted, really' into Alpharuis/Omegon wouldn't have hurt when the Cabal came calling. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5326977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 be a good space dad. How I picture a Primarch having a drink with the Emperor: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5326978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 To be honest.. what could you possible do to stop the fall of Horus to 'a wizard did it' plot device, of something that's completely removed from any sort of cause and effect relationship? :) By that measure all of the Primarchs could have had the upbringing of the Buddha and still just jumped on the Chaos bandwagon at the drop of a hat (or 'chaos blade', whatever) Sorry am being a bit facetious.. ! Obvious one: Angron not having his slave brothers and sisters massacred because of the Emperor, then immediately being put in control of the most violent and least controlled Legion. Think even without the Heresy that one was never going to end well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5327184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgoff Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 Put a deadly allergy against some strange but easy to produce stuff in the primarchs' genome. Something like "head explodes when they have to listen Coco Jumbo" or smth like that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5327269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted June 7, 2019 Author Share Posted June 7, 2019 I honestly think 20 Terran-culture legions without primarchs would have conquered the galaxy just as well Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5327412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 1. Unified stable vanilla genessed. 2. No primarchs (or used for genetic material only)/use emperor's just like GK 3. No stupid legion variatons like "this legion is for punitive action, and this for close qurters destruction". Just one which does everything. This was just stupid, why couldn't you just send Imperial Fists instead of Night Lords to punish some scheming aristocrat? 4. Monitoring care. Probably Custodes leadership. 5. Education about demonic and forming of specialist cadres that recognize and combat "morl threat". Other take: 1. Destroy Colchis and kill Lorgar. Clochis and what it represented was a total opposite of Imperial Truth. No matter wht FW/BL says, it is just stupid that it wasn't nuked. 2. Elimination of mentaly unstable primarchs - Curze, Angron (stupid, stupid no matter how ADB sweats to justify it) 3. Ban on "Animal" in Legion name and iconography. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5327925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 I understand why the Emperor made the primarchs as aspects of himself, if he didn't he would only be making his replacement. Without a lvl up from all 4 chaos gods, if Horus rebelled anyway, Emperor could have had an easier time killing him. As the galaxy dictator, why make generals/ leaders that are your equals? Basicly he was flexing on his kids, some were good with it others weren't. Magnus was the Emperor's equal as a psyker, and didn't like being treated like a simpleton in how the Emperor explained the warp. Obviously someone like that will see through the lies, or even if its just omissions, it dosn't all quite add up etc. That will start doubt, mistrust, resentment etc. Nothing is certain, I think thats why the primarchs were created the way they were. This gives them glaring flaws and weaknesses the Emperor can turn against them. Kinda like how batman has a contingancy plan to defeat/ destroy anyone on the justice leauge that becomes a super villan. Why have a fair fight when you can have the odds to your favour from the beginning? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5328225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted June 23, 2019 Author Share Posted June 23, 2019 @rendington+1 "Probably Custodes leadership." I like the idea of embedding Custodes Shield-Captains in the legion command structure...probably in a Chaplain-like role Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5336035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gederas Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 To be honest.. what could you possible do to stop the fall of Horus to 'a wizard did it' plot device, of something that's completely removed from any sort of cause and effect relationship? By that measure all of the Primarchs could have had the upbringing of the Buddha and still just jumped on the Chaos bandwagon at the drop of a hat (or 'chaos blade', whatever) Sorry am being a bit facetious.. ! Obvious one: Angron not having his slave brothers and sisters massacred because of the Emperor, then immediately being put in control of the most violent and least controlled Legion. Think even without the Heresy that one was never going to end well. Uhhh.... Could have sworn the War Hounds weren't the most violent and least controlled Legion until AFTER Angron put the Butcher's Nails in his Legion. Before that they were more like the Wolves, iirc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5336142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runefyre Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 To be honest.. what could you possible do to stop the fall of Horus to 'a wizard did it' plot device, of something that's completely removed from any sort of cause and effect relationship? By that measure all of the Primarchs could have had the upbringing of the Buddha and still just jumped on the Chaos bandwagon at the drop of a hat (or 'chaos blade', whatever) Sorry am being a bit facetious.. ! Obvious one: Angron not having his slave brothers and sisters massacred because of the Emperor, then immediately being put in control of the most violent and least controlled Legion. Think even without the Heresy that one was never going to end well. Uhhh.... Could have sworn the War Hounds weren't the most violent and least controlled Legion until AFTER Angron put the Butcher's Nails in his Legion. Before that they were more like the Wolves, iirc. Yes and no. The War Hounds were indeed very violent pre-Angron, but they exercised what is described as "honorably controlled fury". The Wolves and War Hounds effectively switched "personalities" when they were joined with their primarchs. The Wolves developed into the restrained and calculating hunters while the War Hounds steadily became more and more indiscriminate in their violence. Given how tragically Angron's story played out, I think the War Hounds would have been better off without their primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5336432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 To be honest.. what could you possible do to stop the fall of Horus to 'a wizard did it' plot device, of something that's completely removed from any sort of cause and effect relationship? By that measure all of the Primarchs could have had the upbringing of the Buddha and still just jumped on the Chaos bandwagon at the drop of a hat (or 'chaos blade', whatever) Sorry am being a bit facetious.. ! Obvious one: Angron not having his slave brothers and sisters massacred because of the Emperor, then immediately being put in control of the most violent and least controlled Legion. Think even without the Heresy that one was never going to end well. Uhhh.... Could have sworn the War Hounds weren't the most violent and least controlled Legion until AFTER Angron put the Butcher's Nails in his Legion. Before that they were more like the Wolves, iirc. Yes and no. The War Hounds were indeed very violent pre-Angron, but they exercised what is described as "honorably controlled fury". The Wolves and War Hounds effectively switched "personalities" when they were joined with their primarchs. The Wolves developed into the restrained and calculating hunters while the War Hounds steadily became more and more indiscriminate in their violence. Given how tragically Angron's story played out, I think the War Hounds would have been better off without their primarch. While I agree that the War Hounds were far better off pre-Angron, there seems to be a trend to underplay how fractious and belligerent the Legion was, even in its glory days. Inferno notes, for example, that the XII were probably the only Legion to use more of the 'Commissar' Consul (I forget what they actually were called) then the pre-Russ Wolves, and (IIRC) Betrayal notes the XII were one of the Legions where intra Legion fighting was common, and more focussed around live weapons than the 'fists and brawling' attitude of other violent Legions. So there's a strong claim to be made that even the 'good' XII Legion were a serious contender for 'most violent, least controlled' Legion before Angron turned up and definitely secured that title. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5336504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 The Emperor did predesign certain Legions with predisposed tendencies. Whether it was the Introduction of the K9 helix in the Space Wolves or the "Emotion dampeners" In the Iron Warriors, It did ultimately help expert warriors become a bit more specialized (for whatever reason/role) in their field (Siege masters, shock troopers, fortification experts and so on) If the Capsules had not of been dispersed across space there is a good chance less fractious and yet indeed more brotherly sibling rivalries may of formed in which the primarchs may of learnt more from one another as a result. Also free of extremely stressful and hostile downright traumatic upbringing in some cases there's a good chance the Primarchs would of been more well rounded and less prone to acts of infantile aggression and 1 up man ship. However, as a deterrent to possible astartee rebellions or even just to make sure his sons knew who the REAL boss was, If I was the Emperor I would of kept the Thunder warriors around (But modernized, none of this "they only served to unify Terra" cobblers we got fed). Not large enough to outnumber all the legions combined but just big enough to make sure that if any astartee chapter was foolish enough to jump into bed with chaos that they would have a group of even deadlier warriors knocking their fortress monastery door down. An Elite army above the Elite. A trump card one would hopefully never have to play. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5336527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
StruManChu Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 In a world where mindwipes are possible... and in an attempt to keep everything pretty much as it is in the current background (i.e. 18 Legions under 18 Primarchs, etc. etc.) - Unless said Primarch has done incredibly well in terms aligning their pre-recovery life with the Emperor's Great Crusade goals (Guilliman potentially being the only or standout example if there's one at all), then you WIPE. THEIR. DAMN. MINDS. Having done that, kill Luthor, kill Kor Phaeron, kill anyone with undue influence over the minds of the generals who will bring your vision of the united galaxy into reality. Take a decade or two to retrain and re-educate them, including telling them WHY you wiped their minds. It's worth the time and the potential delay to the Crusade. Equally, knowing who was responsible for the scattering, I would imagine I'd never let them return to the worlds they landed on. The Primarch's 'homeworlds', with the exception of Fenris and the Canis Helix, are not significant in any way in the grand scheme of things given the sheer number of worlds recovered during the Crusade. Any Legion, more or less, can recruit from anywhere. Just do that, and remove the possibility of future tainting from the entities in the warp. That should sort just about everything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5336542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 However, as a deterrent to possible astartee rebellions or even just to make sure his sons knew who the REAL boss was, If I was the Emperor I would of kept the Thunder warriors around (But modernized, none of this "they only served to unify Terra" cobblers we got fed). Not large enough to outnumber all the legions combined but just big enough to make sure that if any astartee chapter was foolish enough to jump into bed with chaos that they would have a group of even deadlier warriors knocking their fortress monastery door down. An Elite army above the Elite. While I do like the idea of a small 'old guard' of Thunder Warriors persisting, how is your proposal different from the Talons? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5336558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 The Talons? I'm sorry. I think I may of missed something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5337138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 The Talons? I'm sorry. I think I may of missed something. Collective term for the Custodes and Sisters of Silence. They certainly fill the 'elite above the elite' niche, and were used to censure Astartes, both en masse as part of the mission to Prospero, and on a smaller level, like the Custodes squads sent to watch the Word Bearers after Monarchia (pity they did a poor job of it). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5337188 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elzender Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 The Talons? I'm sorry. I think I may of missed something. The Talons (of the Emperor) is the overall name of the Sisters of Silence and the Adeptus Custodes (and probably other groups as well, maybe even the Legio Sinister is considered part of it?). Edit: woops, ninja'd. This part has actually made me think: it is implied (or even outright stated, it has been such a heated and long debate that I cannot really tell for sure) that one of the roles the Emperor intended for the Space Wolves was to be his executioners, and specifically that they were used to punish other legions that deviated too much from their paths/rebelled/etc. However, it seems like a suboptimal decision, as they would be basically even (at least equipment and training-wise) with the legion they would have to attack. Moreover, there is also the symbolism of sending a brother against a brother, and it also puts the Wolves in an upper position compared to the other legions. As it has been mentioned, another Imperial branch would probably be more adequate, be it due to prowess, equipment, numbers, etc., while avoiding increasing tensions amongst supposedly equal legions. Thus, I would be curious to see which reasons would the Emperor have to assign such a role to one of the legiona, instead of having another branch specifically designed to reign in unruly astartes (or even wipe them out if the theory of them being Thunder Warriors 2: electric bogaloo is true, although I am personally not very convinced about it) . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5337196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted June 26, 2019 Author Share Posted June 26, 2019 If Thunder Warriors are more resistant to Chaos and more elite, why replace them with SM? Custodes are simply too expensive, but Thunder Warriors don't have that problem. If a small force of TW could police SM, might as well stick with TW Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356453-hypothetical-question-about-the-legions/#findComment-5337469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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