Starting Black Templars?

[Paulie771]

I played BT back in 4/5e and sold everything when 6e came out. I’ve bought back in heavily ever since 8e came out. I have a lot of Deathwatch but honestly, I’m not really enjoying them. I’m seriously considering selling a lot of them to fund a new Black Templar army.

 

I’m not a tournament player and my local meta and usual players are always up for a narrative game vs. always using their latest tournament list.

 

What should I start with? Obviously several boxes of Initiates and neophytes. What about Devastator boxes for the las-cannon? Are the resin sword brethren the way to honor is there a better plastic option? What units should I stay away from (other than psyckers)? I have a couple of Ven Dreads and Rhinos in my DW are simply painted black currently. Should I keep them for my BT or sell them?

 

Any advice is always greatly appreciated. TIA!

[Ciler]

Vanguard veterans offer a decent amount of bits for sword brethren. Note however that the dynamic running legs are essentially incompatible with the upgrade kit tabards.

 

Ven dreads and rhinos always have a place in a fighting company (specifically dreads are the main source of heavy weaponry as BTs don't usually field devastator squads in the lore).

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I would second the Vanguard Veterans for a good base for Sword Brethren. I magnetised mine to have either jump packs or regular powerpacks. With regular packs they can be played as company veterans to take advantage of the Vigilus rules. (The lack of tabards never bothered me for jump troops, as there's no way you can wear a skirt while flying around!)

I prefer that box for those particular units because the disadvantage of the Finecast Sword Brethren box is that on the whole you don't want to be playing a unit armed as randomly/individually as those models are. Where they look good, is as the individual Sword Brethren in Crusader Squads, maybe with some weapon swaps.

 

Generally, you want what you've already got. In terms of more, Land Raider Crusaders are fluffy, but they suck in this edition. I like Razorbacks for heavy weapon support, usually pairing them with a 6 man shooty Crusader Squad (Special, Combi and Heavy).

 

Our special characters are key too, and are worth getting. If you go for the big Crusader Squads, then even the cenobyte servitors are useful, as they negate morale. 

[Schlitzaf]

So here is my core opinion;

First and foremost our 3 SC’s are important. While I only use one of them (ECHampion) and Cenobytes, for there Points they are steals. I will stand here in the defense and say this, our Sword Brothern Kit solid. Having used it multiple times, being one piece models for the most part the finecast isn’t bad. What I will say however in that regard.

 

Is they are good ‘chassis’ not good as models. The Torso especially are nicely blinged out. And is honestly biggest reason to use the kit. Their power sword tends to warp especially. Secondly our three upgrade kits (well one and two half of one’s).

 

Black Templar upgrade sprew; back in the day called the Emperor Tax. Worth every penny. Odds and ends aside here are the major things you get for 33 Dollars; 2x Packs, 2x Classic Special (Plasma, Melta and Melta), 6x Chainswords, 6x Bolt Pistols, 8x Boltgun, 10x Torsos, 16x Terminator/Gravis Pads, 20x Tactical/Intercessor Pads, 2x Classic Power Weapons (Power Fist, Ax and Sword), 1 Vehicle Upgrade Sprew (Rhino Front and Doors, Dread Doors), and 10x Themed Templar Heads. You also get a lot of ends and odds for converting and templaring your models like sheathed swords, lanterns etc. I like personally buying one for every major marine purchase I make. Every 2 Boxes I like to get one kit.

 

Our other upgrade sprew (FW), IF Templar Brothern, is nominally a heresy sprew. But gives us 5x shield with the cross (with a fist in the center), cool sword and pistol, a pack, 5x Templar Helms, 2 Templar Chests, 2 Templar Chest w/ Fist, and 3x Templar Pads. Roughly half of the set are pretty directly portable to our Templars, other half has Fist symbols. With some of the Templar bits having Fist Symbols.

 

The other upgrade sprew is also FW and is 12 dollars for 5 BT Terminator Storm Shields. Not much else to say there. And the final major thing as a Templar for 75 dollar centerpiece.

 

Is Sigismund. I bought him and run him as my EChampion. In general my main suggestion is decide what you want to do first. If you want to do us most thematically competitively, Black Tide is the best. Black Tide best utilizes are armies strength and advantages. Then you use the Vigilus SB Detachment for the oomph.

[Paulie771]

Thanks for the replies.  I've worked up a list that's based on Armageddon since I already have Cadians and there were 15 or so regiments of them on planet during the events of Helsreach.  Please tell me the failings of this list and what a good fix would be for them.  It feels light on anti-tank to me but I'm not sure how to fix it in a fluffy manner.

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [16 PL, 8CP, 213pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

 

Detachment CP [5CP]

 

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

 

+ HQ +

 

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol

 

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Display Astra Militarum Orders, Laspistol

 

+ Troops +

 

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]

. 9x Guardsman

. Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

 

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]

. 9x Guardsman

. Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

 

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]

. 9x Guardsman

. Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 33pts]

. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [67 PL, 2CP, 1,158pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Black Templars

 

Detachment CP [5CP]

 

Relics of the Chapter (2 Relics) [-3CP]

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain [6 PL, 112pts]: Jump Pack, Power fist, Storm shield, The Crusader's Helm

 

High Marshal Helbrecht [9 PL, 150pts]: Warlord

 

The Emperor's Champion [4 PL, 75pts]

 

+ Troops +

 

Crusader Squad [8 PL, 131pts]

. 4x Initiate w/Chainsword

. 5x Neophyte w/Combat Knife

. Sword Brother: Power fist, Storm bolter

 

Crusader Squad [8 PL, 131pts]

. 4x Initiate w/Chainsword

. 5x Neophyte w/Combat Knife

. Sword Brother: Power fist, Storm bolter

 

Crusader Squad [5 PL, 112pts]

. 2x Initiate

. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

. Sword Brother: Chainsword, Combi-plasma

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Assault Squad [11 PL, 159pts]: Jump Pack

. 9x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Power fist

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Land Raider Crusader [16 PL, 288pts]: 2x Hurricane bolter, Multi-melta, Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [36 PL, 5CP, 628pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Black Templars

 

Detachment CP [5CP]

 

+ HQ +

 

Chaplain Grimaldus [6 PL, 90pts]

 

Lieutenants [5 PL, 92pts]

. Lieutenant: Jump Pack, Plasma pistol, Power fist, The Armour Indomitus

 

+ Troops +

 

Crusader Squad [8 PL, 131pts]

. 4x Initiate w/Chainsword

. 5x Neophyte w/Combat Knife

. Sword Brother: Power fist, Storm bolter

 

Crusader Squad [8 PL, 131pts]

. 4x Initiate w/Chainsword

. 5x Neophyte w/Combat Knife

. Sword Brother: Power fist, Storm bolter

 

Crusader Squad [5 PL, 112pts]

. 2x Initiate

. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

. Sword Brother: Chainsword, Combi-plasma

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Storm bolter

 

++ Total: [119 PL, 15CP, 1,999pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'd chuck in some other power weapons on the SBs. But the crucial comment is to never use Helbrecht as the Warlord, Special Characters are limited to Oathkeeper as their trait, and it sucks. You're much better off using the Marshal for the Warlord, either using the Vigilus trait if you want him in Melee, or Storm of Fire of you want him at the back castling.

[Schlitzaf]

Honeslty secondly I wouldn’t run Helbrect or Grimaldus in this list. Through on that note what kind of critique you looking for?

[Paulie771]

I'd chuck in some other power weapons on the SBs. But the crucial comment is to never use Helbrecht as the Warlord, Special Characters are limited to Oathkeeper as their trait, and it sucks. You're much better off using the Marshal for the Warlord, either using the Vigilus trait if you want him in Melee, or Storm of Fire of you want him at the back castling.

 

Thank you for pointing that out.  I was just playing around with Battlescribe and hadn't read that part of the codex.  I had planned on dropping the Marshall in with the Castellan and the assault squad to wreak havoc in the enemy's back field.  I may still.

 

Honeslty secondly I wouldn’t run Helbrect or Grimaldus in this list. Through on that note what kind of critique you looking for?

 

Just this sort of thing.  Why wouldn't you run either of them?  My thought was to use the Cadians to hold back back field and any objectives that may be on my side of the board, while a 10 man Crusader and the SC went in the LRC to rush as far forward as they can then assault out of it.  One of the 10 man Crusaders would possibly go in the Rhino to do the same thing, while the 5 man Crusaders dealt with big stuff.

 

I worked up another list with a single BT battalion that also swapped the mortars for more las-cannon in the Cadian BN. I could also put them in the infantry squads for more protection and keep the mortars.  I'd like to fit an Ironclad dread but really don't know how unless I drop all the SC and put in a vanilla Marshal, Castellan, and/or Chaplain.

[Schlitzaf]

Main thing here;

Grimaldus needs a large tide like I mean 2-3 14 man to 16 perhaps even 20 man squads. Or look at it this way for Grim to be worthwhile. You need to Proc his ability around 4-6 times to be better over regular Chappy and 2 more Models. Helbrecht by extension has the opposite issue he wants highly elite units (Company Veterans Sword Bros for example).

 

You frankly have neither really in this list. You could easily do either just gonna be hard to do that together. Main suggestions would be like the following. Pick either Helbrecht or Grimaldus. Drop the other. Then do the following.

 

Run 2-3 Tide Squads, 2-4 Faux Devi and/or Cessors Squads or 2-6 Faux Devi Razors and/or 2-6 Cessors. Do the hybrid setup 2 Tide Squads, 2-3 Faux Devi and/or Cessors, 2 Squads in Transports (Pods/Razors/Rhino).

 

Then choose your anvil. Mine for example is Champion Pod Bomb (6 Company Vets w/Shield&Fist + EChampion in Pod). Now here something relavent. As here where you determine Helbrecht or Grimaldus. If you choose the tide setup you do Grim, if you did MSU Support you do Helbrecht. Competitively strictly speaking the Anvil is a unit like the Castallen.

 

Now once you did that, you fill in remaining mandatory slots. And add Cenos. Generally speaking I like, doing EChampion, Sigislash (Or Marshall Law as others say) or Teeth Castallen, Helm Marshall or Castallen. Then depending either WrathTechmarine or something else entirely.

 

We also get our more nuanced list building questions here. But once you fill the first two and mandatory slots. You need to fill. Main thing to note as well a unit like a Raider you ought to run double of. And I will be the odd man out. LRCrusaders are imho for us especially I will say are good if finesse. The main thing is the tide squad inside is vital to stopping bumper cars. You drive up and then unload your squad inside. Then following behind.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Deploying a 10 man Crusader squad into combat as your main hammer support just doesn't work. Trust me. They hit like wet fishes and die twice as fast. Company Veterans with Storm Shields are more survivable and deal more damage.

 

You also then have the problem of having an LRC in the middle of the battle. It will get charged and it will be useless.

 

I pass on this advice with a heavy heart. It pains me that this combination, so fluffy and so courageous, is so crap.

 

I do however, respectfully disagree with Schlitzaf. I like Grimaldus in most lists, of course he does better surrounded by more units as his buff works better the more dice you have to roll. But sometimes every little helps, combined with a Marshal with sword master, the Marshal can melt troops.

 

Helbrecht would be better if his aura buffed units rather than models. (Heck, it would be a lot less complicated to play with at least!)

 

Ancients can be useful too. Your marines are going to die, so you may as well take the option to get some more value out of them.

[Schlitzaf]

Fair Adel, I haven’t played Grimaldus yet. So I have yet to see how he plays out in practice. Sense a regular Chappy 72, and Grim 90. You have Proc his ability in additional Hits atleast 7 times (So 30 Attacks hit 20, reroll hit 6 more. Procs him average about 6 times). For him to be better than a regular Chappy (whose almost 2 Marines cheap). THAT said, if he is buffing one one tide squad it isn’t that much worse in efficient terms. Essentially your only losing the pistol shots. And the additional procs unlike pistols can be reroll.

 

The big thing for me personally about Grimaldus (And tbh every other marine ‘support’ character). Is he is a melee combatant with only 3 Attacks. I personally rather have a Primaris Chappy with 4 attacks. In general that a small change I’d make to those characters. Also why one of my big desires personally if we an extension of our tactics for it to be like “a BLACK TEMPLAR model attacking with MELEE weapon of AP -1 or greater may attack an additional time with that weapon”.

 

But I am willing to admit having not used him on table he could much better than I am giving credit for.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Normal Chaplains aren't worth taking IMO. You get the same results with a Marshal or High Marshal (personally I love the Chapter Master strategem) but with Grim you get something extra, first he has a plasma pistol, so you need to factor that into the cost of a comparable chaplain, and the buff is nice, particularly as it affects UNITS. If you do what the rules sadly requires us to and stack auras you get to reroll the missed new attacks as well. (They don't count as rerolls themselves)

 

I'm also reasonably sure that his buff and the Sword Master buff cross-apply. Meaning that a 6 from the trait means an extra automatic hit as well as an extra hit dice to roll, which can itself be re-rolled!

[Schlitzaf]

Fair which on buff stacking note. Do you find having Marshall & Grim together not feel redundant?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Only on the reroll, but with them spread far enough apart the combat hit re-roll aura for both is huge.

[CantusMaximGloria]

I didn't see it mentioned yet but as far as modeling goes Grey Knights have a ton of fantastic bits for conversion and more swords than you can shake a Crusade at. A box of paladin's might be worthwhile at some point.

 

Additionally while oathkeeper isn't amazing having your Emperor's Champion jump into combats with enemy warlords without being targetable by the enemy charging unit is pretty cool. I've dropped a Grey Knight grandmaster in dreadknight with a heroic intervention which was awesome. Maybe consider it if you run a field commander with our vigilus detachment. Just my two thoughts, cheers and welcome back to the Crusade!