Of godhood, Primarchs and the future

[Boldthreat]

Hey all. Ever since putting down Plague War and pondering on the end of that novel. Theories and ideas of what could be down the pipe has been swirling in my head. Every now and then we get a rumor of a rumor that this Chapter is going to get their own codex and this Primarch will return. I have no clue if any of that is true but it sure is fun to speculate on. So stay awhile my friends, jump in to this subject and add your thoughts. I have a particular theory I want to float you. You will probably disagree and claim heresy, but that’s half the fun. Buckle up, it’s long.

 

Most of us heard a few months back about the Imperial Fists getting their own codex. And with that came rumblings of Dorns return. Valrak and Kirioth made videos on their thoughts. Check them out. I have no idea if these rumors had or have any basis in reality but my mind set my sights on it.

 

A while back I made a post regarding Dorn coming back and my opinion that he should stay dead. How the original Index Astartes on my bookshelf was the perfect story for him and GW should resurrect anyone but him. But given the popularity of returning Primarchs... heck I think all of them have a chance at returning, if we want it or not. So how will it be done? Who is next? And what would their return do to the state of the Imperium as of the current political climate? I want to start with Rogal Dorn. Why I don’t quite think he would be as boring as you might initially think... and why it could very well lead to an Imperial Fist Codex.

 

First let’s deal with what we know. Guilliman is back and doing what he can. He is increasingly growing frustrated with the religious dogma, emperor worship and wanton ignorance of the Imperium. In an age of superstition, faith, god worship and ignorance... Guilliman is a beacon of hope, truth and reason. It appears that some kind of conflict between him and his ideals, and that of the current Imperium is brewing. In fact, secretly, he is even resenting his Father. His “talk” with the Emperor was not pleasant. His plan appears to be a big middle finger to the current establishment : use the Adeptus Astartes as beacons of hope and progress via the reformation of their order and the bringing up of their home worlds as paragons of humanity. He even reforms the 500 worlds of Ultramar to be the example of how it is done. Not only that but he takes his Paragon Empire and fills it with no less than 10 Chapters, a small legion in this age, all of his own Geneline and all loyal to him above all else. Now we can argue the semantics about them being separate chapters but they all answer to the Tetrarchs, who answer to him. The Space Marines rule Ultramar. Even more heretical (from Terra’s perspective) is he establishes an order of truth seekers meant to scour the Imperium for the most dangerous thing ever... the truth! A task that has already put them into conflict with elements of His Holy Inquisition. And since this is 40k... I don’t think peace is going to be won politically or at all.

 

Now I proclaim that Guilliman vs nameless high lords to be boring. It won’t translate to something on the table top... and it won’t sell a model. No the traditional Imperium needs a face. Needs a true leader and he needs to be a true Foil to Guilliman... in short another Primarch... and not a fallen one. I don’t necessarily believe it will be an open war like the one against chaos... no I expect it to be a war of ideas... truth against faith, reason and logic against zeal and the subjugation of dangerous thought. So who? Which Primarch is all about secrets? If you think this is obviously the Lion, then let me talk to you about Rogal Dorn.

 

Let’s get a snapshot that is traditional. The Most loyal son, who could never tell a lie even to the detriment of his relationship. Who believed wholeheartedly in the Emperors crusade. The primarch who chastised his brothers for even slightly deviating from his idea of what was right and good. But there is a dark side. His pride. His anger. His hate.

 

A closer look at his actions in the Heresy shows something different. He will kill to destroy the dangerous truth. He will kill his best friend even if there is the smallest chance that his friends truth could aid the enemies of the Emperor. Hell he even completely covers up the death of a Primarch! Only because the truth that an enemy Primarch made it onto Terra would be detrimental to his aim. In fact Praetorian of Dorn also shows that Dorn is just as good at subterfuge and clandestine operations as Alpharius, he just chooses not to. He will lie. He does lie. And he will kill to keep the lie and bury the truth. As long as it aids the Emperors dream. Rogal Dorn is every bit the spiritual creator of the Inquisition! But it doesn’t end there...

 

We all know that once the Emperor is placed on the throne, Dorn loses his mind. All the good qualities of him takes a back seat to his rage, his hatred and his vengeance. Whilst Guilliman is picking up the pieces, Dorn is attacking fortress after fortress. Hunting down the traitors. I’m sure he is doing all the things that makes the Red Talons so awesome. As we all know this culminates in the codex crises and it looks like the space marines are about to fight a civil war. But Dorn relents, accepts Guillimans reforms and the rest is history. But more happens here than initially read. Dorn doesn’t just change his mind in a moment of clarity. No this comes to him in a vision from the Emperor himself, whilst meditating in the pain glove. As an admitted religious man, this story always resonated with me. This wasn’t just a psychic email. No this was a religious conversion! The IA starts throwing out a very religious vibe at this point. Dorn now understands that the Emperor is still alive and he can still serve him. This is like Jesus visiting his apostles after his resurrection! Dorn throws himself back into the service of his God and reforms his legion in a baptism for a new age. And if you question that, what does it go on to say about his death? That he willingly sacrifices himself because as of one of the last remaining Primarchs... he was starting to be deified and he believed only one being was worthy of that worship! Whoah! This from the guy who was the paragon and crusader of the Emperors dream of the Imperial Truth!

 

He has to be the last Primarch assumed alive in this period. We know he outlasts Guilliman, as he initiated the Third Founding and there is a Novel where the Ultramarines are shocked he does this after Guilliman’s fall. Think about it. Guilliman is in stasis. The Lion disappears, Russ disappears, Corax disappears, the Khan is lost in the webway and Vulkan is off looking for his marbles. Sanguinius and Mannus are dead. Rogal Dorn is alone and no one is there to rein him in. So he starts to be deified... hell he used to be an Emperor himself. But no, not now. Only God the Emperor deserves that. The God that visits him in the pain glove. The God that we sacrifice thousands of Psykers a day to keep alive. The God who’s light keeps Star travel possible. Dorn needs to go away... and the deification of the Emperor has to take root. It has to! It doesn’t matter if the Emperor wanted to be a god or not, the Imperium needed him to be a God post his enthronement. Rather he be worshipped than giving that energy to the great enemy. It’s not the writings of Lorgar that found the Imperial Creed... as that’s the Old Testament. No this is the New Testament, the Gospel of the Emperor on the Throne. The good news of the God still with us. All started by the Apostle Dorn, because he needed to go away, guide the birth of the Imperium in the shadows and direct the birth of the new God... so mankind can survive. So that’s why he fakes his death. He needs to go incognito to guide this new religion and to make war on the dangerous truth. To shroud the past in lies and dogma and kill the dangerous truths of the galaxy. Survival is not in hope and reason, but in blind faith and zeal. The Emperor wills it! He doesn’t head the Custodes like the old rumors... no he takes on the shadow war for the soul of mankind. He drives the rise of the Inquisition and the Ministorum. The Imperium of the 41st millennium is exactly what he guided it to be.

 

And here comes Guilliman mucking it up with his cheap ideals. With his faithless ramblings and reforms that could open humanity up to corruption. Truth and knowledge will disarm the armor of faith that has been protecting the Imperium for 10,000 years. And he is actively preaching heresy that the Emperor is not the one true God! He is undoing everything Dorn built. Dorn has to go overt again, lest the soul of mankind is lost forever.

 

So Dorn comes back. But things are bad. Real bad. What’s the first thing he does? The Last Wall protocol. The Imperial Fist codex isn’t for a Chapter. It’s the Imperial Fist Legion. Not all answer the call though. The regular codex will have Sons of Dorn in it... namely the Crimson Fists... the fallen sons who gave up their crusader ways for Dominion of a world... who because of that sin owe a debt to Guilliman. Maybe the Phalanx Imperial Fists too... who are imposters, sons of Maximus Thane and his Codex Astartes worship. The Templar’s will answer the call though. They already worship the one true God. Hell maybe they have been in on it from the beginning! With the Will of the Emperor as his torch, his lost Fist wearing the claw of the Emperor as his badge of office... Dorn and his Legion will destroy the shadows. The Eternal Crusader vs Maccraggs Honor. Faith vs Reason. Not a direct war. As Chaos is at the door. But Dorn’s Catholicism vs Guilliman’s Protestant reformation. Who would you pledge to?

 

Anyway. I know it’s crazy. I know it’s probably not going to happen. But does it seem possible? Tell me what you think. Tell me why it should be another Primarch. I just love discussion this universe. Even when I’m wrong.

[Boytoy]

this is a crazy, brilliant idea. i love it, and i'd love to see this much depth in the return of the next primarch, whichever one it is. 

however, i don't think that GW wants to add yet another imperial astartes codex before they finish fleshing out the heretic astartes with the Emperors children and world eaters. even then, the codexes would be 6-5 in favour of the imperials, so i think the next primarch we'll see will either be the lion, russ, or a resurrected sanguinius (i really hope this latter one doesnt happen).

so while i really like the idea that you're putting forth, i just don't think its realistic.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

Omnissiah, I love this. Codex: Last Wall is a concept people (including myself) have been throwing around lately, and bringing back Dorn as a religious lunatic and rival to Guilliman would be perfection.

[Dracos]

My problem with Dorn ... and it's my only problem, because I'm a closet Black Templar from way back, is he doesn't provide anything of substantial difference on the table top that we don't get in Bobby G. It would sell. Any Primarch is going to sell, but to someone who isn't as huge a narrative fan, we need someone other than another gunline Primarch.

 

Good story ideas. How about something involving Corax, Vulkan (yeah this guy has to come back), or the Khan .... almost anyone beside another Big 4 Primarch please.

[RikuEru]

I really love your idea and the way you connect the dots of the old IA article, HH novels and the "modern" 40k/41k era.

It's a "fresh" idea, regarding Dorn. Also I like the way it has borrowed from real world religion/legends, like most things in Warhammer have in someway.

 

The only thing keeping me from fully accepting this as the possible "go to route" of the next releases is the end of Plague War itself.

By now most of us probably know what book, in its original state, Guilliman has started reading... (in addition to the "miracle" actions of the young girl he witnessed)

 

...but what conclusion will he come to in his theoretical/practical divided brain? ...and in his feeling soul!?

 

It all depends on his view of it compared to the current status quo of the universe.

Will he see that the Emperor-turned-God actually was inevitable and is a necessity for humanity and the Imperium to survive in this day and age? Even though he wouldn't like the idea, he would realise that the average Joe needs something to believe in - and Humanity needs the God-Emperor to shield itself from Chaos.

 

Or will he denounce it even more, as it was written by his traitor brother, proclaiming logic and reason and progress as the only way to go forward?

In that case, I would love your version of Dorn, the Crusader and Believer, to come back.

 

 

But in regards to the Dark Imperium Books, I feel we have a set-up for Guilliman realising his 'Father' has become a God, which the Imperium needs.

Because I think Father Mathieu will turn into a frothing lunatic, telling Guilliman "See! I told you so!", probably kicking off another Crusade and doing horrible things in the name of the God-Emperor and "Holy" Guilliman, looking for more saints and proofs of Guilliman's Holyness.

 

And that could lead to Guilliman seeing the abhorrent danger of the blind faith many zealots in the Imperium show, as it is self-destructive in many cases (or in some cases even leads to Chaos Corruption).

He will come up with something 'new' and more moderate, that combines Faith in the Emperor and the Progress of Logic and the Emperor's/Guilliman's Ideals.

(Similiar to the Primaris: They are "New" Space Marines, with their old Armor upgraded, in new unit formations that harken back to Great Crusade Era tactics, new vehicles and design re-using old tech, following a new, re-edited and complete version of the old Codex Astartes)

[Leif Bearclaw]

Couple of issues imo. Firstly, might as well ignore the old IAs at this point, they have (amongst other things) Nikea being entirely different, Ferrus surviving the Heresy (it was Ferrus and Corax, not Corax and Khan who were 'team Gulliman' in the Codex Showdown), Ferrus going after Horus at Istvaan instead of Fulgrim, Yarant wasn't a 'shattered Legion' level event, Signus didn't warrant a mention and (most critically) the Imperial Truth wasn't a thing. So using IAs as evidence for Dorn going from secular to zealot (especially framing his 'death' as a deliberate sacrifice for religious reasons, rather than the ultimate outcome of duty) doesn't really gel with me. Dorn's story in the pain glove from IA can't be a religious conversion, because the IA era Imperium wasn't secular. The actual quote from IA reads as follows (emphasis mine):

 

"For seven days he resisted the pain glove until at last he was gifted with a vision of the Emperor. The Imperial Fists had wavered in their faith, thinking the Emperor gone"

 

That's not the language of conversion, that's reaffirmation of an already held belief.

 

 

No this comes to him in a vision from the Emperor himself, whilst meditating in the pain glove. As an admitted religious man, this story always resonated with me. This wasn’t just a psychic email. No this was a religious conversion!

This doesn't really align with what we know of Dorn's actions though (iirc). As after that 'revelation' he takes the most strident crusaders of the Legion, and leads them to the Iron Cage, with the survivors forming the BTs, while Dorn and the rest embrace the Codex. If Dorn converts to full bore zealotry, why are the BTs the only famous Emperor worshipping

successor Chapter? One would expect the Fists to follow suit, rather than leaving Sigismund's boys as the weird outlier. So it seems more likely that 'modern HH Dorn' will stay on the more secular end of the 'Astartes beliefs about the Emperor' spectrum.

 

 

So Dorn comes back. But things are bad. Real bad. What’s the first thing he does? The Last Wall protocol. The Imperial Fist codex isn’t for a Chapter. It’s the Imperial Fist Legion. Not all answer the call though. The regular codex will have Sons of Dorn in it... namely the Crimson Fists... the fallen sons who gave up their crusader ways for Dominion of a world... who because of that sin owe a debt to Guilliman. Maybe the Phalanx Imperial Fists too... who are imposters, sons of Maximus Thane and his Codex Astartes worship. The Templar’s will answer the call though.

So basically just Codex Black Templars? If that was the goal, just have that, don't call it 'The Imperial Fists Legion' when you've left the actual Fists in Codex Space Marines. No need to drag other beloved Chapters, like both flavours of Fists, through the muck by branding them 'not true Sons of Dorn', which is what this would be. It's akin to Matt Ward's infamous 'spiritual liege' , and the less of that the better. Also, acknowledging that terrible 'twist' for the Beast Arises, please no, let that abomination wither and die like the half Eldar librarian.

 

 

Not a direct war. As Chaos is at the door. But Dorn’s Catholicism vs Guilliman’s Protestant reformation.

If you don't want a direct war, that's a terrible historical example to illustrate your point, as Catholic vs Protestant did lead to multiple wars, rebellions and civil wars.

 

Now, I think the whole 'schisming Imperium' thing is a colossally stupid idea, given how much the studio has overloaded the fluff with 'Doom, Doom!' over the last few years. So more returning Primarchs should be handled pretty simply imo. They come back as actual beacons of hope in the Dark Times, not a bunch of fractious idiots feuding over minutiae of faith while the empire burns around them. We don't need another 'sucks for the Imperium' twist. At this point, an actual, unqualified Imperial triumph would be far more unexpected and surprising.

 

But if you want a 'religious lunatic' returned Primarch, go all in. Make it Sanguinius. Full bore Jesus analogue, died and risen, angel on high, all that jazz. The returned Paragon Sangy vs the ever Practical Gulliman.

[Boldthreat]

All great responses. Thank you guys for jumping in. I’ll try to respond to the various points with my thoughts and musings. I definitely think this theory is a long shot, but I tried to connect as many dots (real and imagined) as I could here. This excersise is to give us something to sink our teeth into and debate. I love reading different opinions and views.

 

Now for this to work, Guilliman has to reject the idea of Emperor as God. He has to double down on what he currently believes. There is a chance he doesn’t do this. Maybe Lorgars words are more convincing than he thinks. Another thing is that if this happens in any capacity then Dorn doesn’t come back as a gunline Primarch. He comes back as a zealot, a Helbrecht plus plus character. You ask, well why not just Codex Black Templar’s and Dorn leads them? I think it’s possible... but the rumor was about a chapter that never had a codex before and that it was Imperial Fists. Mind I find this unlikely but I wanted to keep that apart of the theory. So in my theory, Dorn calls his sons together and reforms the Imperial Fist legion. The Templar’s are all in. Some Chapters aren’t, due to conflicting ideologies and or loyalty to Guilliman. I’m imagining a Legion that borrows heavily from the old Legion Heraldry... but maybe some keep their own Heraldry. But it’s heavily Black Templar themed. No Psykers, full of prayers and faith based rules, assault oriented.

 

Leif, I love the pushback. I’ll try to tackle your points and see if I can work through it. Forgive me I’m on my phone so I’m pretty limited on making this work via quotations.

 

Your first issue. Basically stating the original IA wasn’t secular and that many of the things in the Index Astartes are void in the current representation of the Fluff. I think you are mostly right. I’ll readily admit that I’m trying to the best I can to weave a theory that borrows from as many things as possible. The Horus Heresy, the old IA articles, the current setting etc. The Black Templar’s significant lore switch was one as well.

 

And I see how you can read that as an already held belief. But remember the AI is written in past tense. The Primarch and the Imperial Fists believed the Emperor gone. It sounds weird. Dorn is the one who jacked him into the Golden Throne mind you. He breaks his sword because he failed to protect Him. Be believes he is dead. And goes off on a rampage without any regard to the state of the Imperium. I think without the Vision, Dorn would have went to war with Guilliman over the codex crises. Trying to encapsulate all we do know now as official and still keep the foundation of the IA it has to be a revelation. To go from champion of the Imperial Truth to consumed by vengeance and hate, to veneration and worship of the Emperor that is. It reeks to me if conversion. Heck he and his sons have to go through atonement for their sins. The Iron Cage was indeed a baptism. And the sons of Dorn would be born again or pass away. Now I get the duty aspect of it all. Heck I’ve been viewing it that way since I were 12. But the new stuff is shedding light on to Dorns character. And what we see is a being who is so utterly loyal to the Emperor and mankind that he would do anything and I mean anything to protect it. Maybe he doesn’t really believe in the Emperor as God, but that wouldn’t stop him from pushing that idea as a means to control the fractious Imperium.

 

Regarding your second point on the Black Templar’s being the only worshipers and that none of the other sons of Dorn are. True. But we have some new info here. And it might be potentially really cool. You know the original story, after the Iron Cage the survivors either went Imperial Fist, Black Templar’s or Crimson Fists. Now the original fluff is that those that stayed Imperial Fists were the hardliners. The fanatical lot went with Sigismund and the younger boys with Pollux. But let’s fill in some truths. There were more chapters Founded here. It says Dorn took the Imperial Fists and spent a considerable amount of time making them exemplars of the Codex Astartes. But what if that is a lie? We now know more than three chapters were founded. And at least one of those, the Fists Exemplars were all aboard the codex acceptance. We also know that the Fists prior to the War of the Beast were fundamentally different than we initially believed. But they were all killed to a man. Every last Fist who would have been enshrined in the original Chapter cult is gone. Replaced by mostly Maximus Thane and the remnants of the Fists Exemplar. Maybe it’s not as cut and dry after all? Maybe there is more to this story to be expanded on later? The Crimson Fists were influenced by Pollux more than anything, who spent most of the Heresy in Ultramar and he himself influenced by Guilliman. The only Chapter who has a chance at the truth is the Black Templars.

 

And your third point, I feel I have already touched on it. I see what you are saying. Some of the recent stuff is hard to swallow. But I’m trying to tie it all together as much as possible and get a story that in my mind is very 40k. Maybe these items individually are lemons, but I wanna try to get some lemonade out of this lol. I like intrigue and politics and conflicting ideologies. I remember being irritated in the Black Templar changes, furious that the first chapter to fall to chaos was an Imperial Fist successor, that the Fists were actually killed off and that the Black Templar’s just can’t make Librarians anymore... instead of it being a choice to not traffic in witchcraft. But this is 40k... and everything we have been told is a lie! Let’s embrace that and make something cool out of it.

 

Now I disagree with your last point. The Imperium is and always have been a fractious lot. And I think the idea that the Imperium should be United is wrong and goes against 40k as a setting. Every faction has infighting and wars with itself. It’s true of Chaos, Eldar, Orks and all! Heck even the Imperium has the Badab War, one of probably thousands of events. The galaxy is huge and this isn’t the Galactic Federation of Planets. I sure hope the return of the Primarchs isn’t handled the way you subscribe. And whilst your right in so far about the conflicts that arose because of the reformation... I hope you would agree that due to the state of the Imperium, the distances involved and very real threat of the Great Rift, that the full on schism wouldn’t have time to take place, but create good tension and political drama for these characters. If the Lion comes back and hugs Guilliman and gives Russ a dog treat, I’d be underwhelmed.

 

I’d be open to that regarding Sanguinius. The King in the North, the God of the Imperium beyond the Rift. On the surface a righteous and benevolent God. But something terrible came back with him from the Grave. Something that could lead the Blood Angels and the whole region to damnation. That could be great.

[Hantheman]

I think the next Primarch return should deal with a Xenos threat. Mix things up a bit.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It all sounds quite silly and muddled to me as well Leif.

[Dracos]

Just because the game on the table inspires the narrative of a fractious Imperium shouldn’t mean there can’t be a change in how that plays out. I know “Soup” is always going to be a thing, but here’s a thought. What if the whole Primaris Project was used to encourage mono-faction armies ... narrative and competitively speaking. The Primaris chapters lead by the Primarchs fighting for Imperial Truth and the Old Marines (who look even sillier next to that megalithic Bobby G model) siding with the Imperium Institutions resisting the new leadership of the Sons of the Emperor.

 

Sigh that diesnt really work either though does it? We couldn’t have any good Loyalist Primarch fights that way. I like how your trying to weave many narrative elements in to your idea but for me none of them work if they can’t work on the table top also. My real problem with Loyalist Primarchs fighting though is they’re suppose to be smarter then humans, and while civil wars are a thing (what a God awful name for a war) That’s been done already by a guy named Horus. Even in a Dark Future there should be light or there is no reason for the struggle. One requires the other for a story to have meaning. Primarchs (Loyalist) need to be that light. They need to fight together against their heretical brothers, against the God awful Imperial Creed ... started by one of their heretical brothers ... and stand up as a Light for the Imperial Truth (science) their father taught them would be The Way to lead humanity through the Dark.

 

Just my opinion but more fractions just weaken humanity and the Primarchs that are loyal will fight together when push comes to shove. If they don’t they KNOW chais wins.

[Marshal Rohr]

It doesn’t need to be secular or faith based conflict. Any Primarch coming back is beyond Guilliman’s authority. There’s only one way that plays out historically. The Lion and Russ (the only two Primarchs likely to return since their chapters have codexes) would each form their own segment of Imperial Authority. The worlds between them would be constantly shifting their allegiance based on political necessities. Dorn returning would be bad, misty because him being dead is good for his character, and because there is no rule based or lore reason for him to not be Guilliman in Yellow. Dorn and Guilliman were alike in the Great crusade and Heresy. They both ruled over interstellar empires instead of planets (the only Primarchs to do so). Their legions were deeply connected and shared a strong brotherhood. Dorn and Guillimans conflict and resolution already played out in M31. They broke up and didn’t get along, and then Guilliman our politics aside and came to save his closest Brother before he could commit suicide. That’s powerful stuff. It already happened. It already exists. Don’t try it again.

[redmapa]

Personally I really like this idea as its an interesting take on Dorn and his return, it shows the character decaying over time just as the Imperium has rot from the 10,000 years of conflict. Dorn is no longer a paragon of honor but a schemer willing to do anything in order to protect the one thing he has left, the Imperium. My only complaint is that putting Dorn behind everything is too similar to Cawl/Guilliman ex machina so that would require a level of execution that I dont think its in GW anymore.

 

 

 

 because there is no rule based or lore reason for him to not be Guilliman in Yellow.

 

I completely disagree with this, going by Index Astartes by the Dorn is left alone he no longer is the Rogal Dorn of the great crusade, he believes the Emperor to be worthy of being a deity, he also is willing to accept the Imperium as it is today and he is far less classically heroic than Guilliman as he is also more than willing to send men to their deaths if thats what it takes for victory. They are similar but the passage of time has changed both characters, Guilliman is now a hero amidst a nightmare thats corroding his character and Dorn was (or is) simply a man with a mission thats more than willing to accept the thing he protects is no longer a dream but a corrupted empire and he changes with it whereas Guilliman clashes with the Imperium, a futher jump in time for Dorn would certainly see him being far more like the current Imperium and less like the Great Crusade ideals that Guilliman cherishes so much,

[Marshal Rohr]

That doesn’t change the fact you’re bringing back a character who already had his strongest character development and arc. Same with Sanguinius. Bringing him back is naked fanboyism and fanservice. There’s already an era for Dorn fans to play with their favorite Primarch.

[Dracos]

I'm a Corax fanboy but I'd like to see Vulkan's story also. Although I'm also up for anything that would give Black Templars Primaris army options that make sense too.  Win - Win ;)

 

 

Again anything but Russ and the Lion. Love em both but lets get some fresh blood on the field (table) shall we?

[Red_Shift]

Great thread, Boldthreat. Over the years, the Imperial Fists have interceeded at pivotal moments in the imperium history. The war of the beast, the assassin wars, the age of apostasy and the overthrow of vandire. Looking back, it would be fairly easy to create a narrative where Dorn has been manipulating events behind the scenes.

 

Incidentally there was another Last Wall codex rumour doing the rounds yesterday. May be rubbish of course.

 

One thing that does make sense to me about Dorn/Last Wall is that the releases that accompany it - chainsword primaris, for example, fill out the existing line better than themed units for e.g. space wolves so it might make more sense to GW to go down that route, for now.

[Boldthreat]

Fantastic all. I love reading what you all have typed! It’s even making me step back and think about reining in the theory a tad. I’ll try to hit the points you all are bringing up.

 

Draco’s, brother I read you. The idea of schisms and factionized conflict at the end of the world is a bit much. The only thing that I could say that could balance your thoughts and mine is that all the factions are extremely factionized. Wars between different war bands and Gods, pretty much all the Ork stuff... even Tyranids could have a reason to fight each other. But I think you are half right. I’m using too harsh terminology for what I actually believe. I don’t believe this to be a open war kind of thing. I just believe that it would be a completely opposing ideology. Dorn pushing faith and dogma in the God Emperor and Guilliman the beacon of hope and reason. Both fighting for the future and the Imperium and against the great enemy... heck maybe they even ally in this fight or that. But the tension is there. And if my Dorn model roles dice against yours, we have something to build it around. I also don’t subscribe to any idea that sees any kind of resurgence for traditional space marines. And I don’t mean this as arrogantly pushing Primaris. I just truly believe that this whole Primaris thing is nothing more than a vehicle to update imperial Space Marines. I don’t see that being walked back for any reason. But never say never I guess... and if traditional Astartes see a resurgence and official support... I’d rejoice too.

 

Marshal, I used to think just like you. The words you are typing resonate with me as that has been my take on the original IF IA, indeed it’s what made me a Fist fan in the first place. And because I thought the Imperial Fist Terminator in that same article looked cool in his colors lol. I was 12 and I think that was the most important thing heh. But I would like to discuss a point you brought up. I believe everything you said about the closeness of Dorn and Guilliman. In fact it’s that closeness and similarity that I feel make this more plausible and more sweet.

 

It’s because they are both former heads of interstellar Empires that I see them as the right choice. I don’t believe the other Primarchs to be true leaders on that scale. And of all the loyalist Primarchs, none save these two have directed the post Heresy world more. Guilliman reformed the Imperium and the Space Marines... but we know it was Dorn who took up the mantle after Fulgrim put Roboute on ice. Dorn can claim he wants recruits not vassals and wants to keep his Legion a military all he wants... but he will lead the Imperium when he must. The codex crises was a political disagreement between Rogal and Guilliman... the other Primarchs just picked sides. And while it’s true (maybe... another theory) that they make up... the lesson here is that these are the Primarchs concerned mostly with the future of the Imperium. I don’t want to take away from that or ape it... I want to just see that expanded apon 10,000 years later when things are worse than ever before.

 

But small theory... again nothing serious. But what if the end of the Iron Cage is darker than portrayed. What if the Ultramarines don’t show up at the end to save Dorn and his sons? What if they show up at the end to ensure Dorn follows through with the breaking of his legion... now that he’s considerably weakened against the Iron Warriors. Guillimans salvation giving Dorn two choices... on one hand you accept my reforms and split right now; or force me to kill you as a rebel. Everything we have been told is a lie. I very much doubt this... but man could it be cool.

 

Again I want to point out that this nothing but a fan theory. I’d be happy if Dorn stayed dead and we go another direction. If the IF IA stays canon and mostly correct then I’d be the happiest Fist player. But I think slowly over time, GW through its various snapshots of Dorn throughout the Horus Heresy, hints in War Of the Beast, and the popularity of Primarchs could go the direction of a returned Dorn.

 

And thank you Redmapa and Red Shift. I think it’s possible for sure. I very well could be connecting dots where there are none. But how cool would it be that Dorn was the one driving the birth of the Imperial Creed. I always found it so noteworthy that it was the sons of Dorn primarily involved in the story of Goge Vandire and the end of his reign. You wanna see the craziness to how far I can stretch my ridiculous conspiracies? The Iron Cage was held on the Planet Sebastus IV. The reformation of the Imperial Church and all the craziness of the Age of Apostasy was spear headed by the Confederation of Light and Sebastian Thor. A political movement that culminates with the sons of Dorn invading Terra itself! Come on! Sebastus IV/Sebastian Thor... his name was a key word, a trained plant, a message. The silent hand of Dorn... lol I told you this crap could get crazy and I can do it all day long! Impossible, incorrect, im stretching it... but this is 40k... and everything we have been told is a lie. The beauty of this setting is I know I’m wrong. I know there is no way this is legitimate... but maybe... just maybe... and that’s all we need.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Dorn wearing the emperors claw on his missing hand is a very cool idea.

 

The sword and the talon.

[Preliminary Bombardment]

Or you could just have Lorgar returning to preach the gospel and getting the ecclesiarchy on side. Most people don't know about the traitors in the 42nd millennium.

[Boldthreat]

Hey thanks Son of Dorn. I thought so too. With Guilliman carrying the Emperors sword as a defacto symbol of his authority I think it would be neat if all the loyal Primarchs who return get something equally symbolic. And well... we know Dorn needs a hand lol.

 

Now I’m open to theories surrounding the other Primarchs as well, but I’ll readily admit that my knowledge on them isn’t as complete or interested even. So if you all have theories, shoot. I’d love to debate them. My personal opinion is that while the return of the Lion and Russ are and should be assured, and that their return will have an impact on the politics of the Imperium; I kind of doubt on them being able to challenge (or if they even wanted to) Guilliman as defacto head the greater Imperium.

 

Don’t shoot me. It’s not that I believe they are incapable mind you. It’s that given their history and the state of both of their sons... would they? The Lion may not trust Guilliman. He may openly question him. Russ as well. But aren’t the Dark Angels and the Rock on the other side of the Great Rift? Forgive me I thought that’s what I read but I do not have their current codex. With the biggest army of Fallen being formed and Luther escaping I unfortunately think anything to do with the Unforgiven and their Primarch to be unfairly shoehorned into that whole story. It’s a shame really.

 

And Russ? I don’t know. Will he be mutated and Feral? The Space Wolves have had a rough time with Fenris and all. Of Russ I don’t have much of an opinion. Headstrong for sure... I don’t doubt at all him having the gumption to tell anyone to pound sand.

 

I see all the loyal Primarchs as showing up and being beacons of hope sure. As head of this fleet or this zone sure. But Guilliman is a leader on the Empire level. And of the loyal Primarchs I only see two others that could compete with him on that plane. Dorn and Sanguinius. One a former intergalactic Empire and he has commanded the Imperium in the past. The other a Primarch that all others agreed should be heir to the Emperor... but he’s dead. I think he should stay dead but I’d he doesn’t... won’t he be across the great Rift as well? Spear of the Emperor doesn’t give the situation there much hope... and crossing it seems suicide in that novel as well. Plus surely he will have some dark things to deal with regarding his geneline... I don’t see those things going away.

 

As far as Lorgar... I don’t know. I hope he dies in the Heresy... probably a long shot. The irony of Emperor worship in the 41st would be interesting to explore from his point of view... I just bet he above all others would want to tear down the False God he probably thinks he created.

 

Now I will tell you guys of the Traitor Primarch I do want to see... Perturabo. And I think if Dorn comes back he will too. Perturabo seems he could care less about the Imperium and the wars in the eye. He’s on his Daemon World and basically sitting it out. Then he finds out Dorn is actually Alive and active in the Imperium again. Just like Joker when Batman returned... now he cares. Now he will lead his Legion. To fight the fight that he only ever really cared about. I’d love to read that story!

[SickSix]

Man I enjoyed reading that and it would be really cool if Dorn came back as a zealot and basically converted his entire legion into Black Templars. But I just don't see that happening.

 

Sadly I see Dorn and Perturabo being two of the last Primarchs we would ever see.

 

The Lion would provide a much better foil to Gulliman without a character transformation. And his return is already being set up with Luther escaping and Cypher rallying the Fallen.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’d like to see the Lion return.

[Slave to Darkness]

I wouldnt mind Corax or Khan returning. Perfect excuse to do assault Primaris or some form of mounted Primaris units.

[Guest Triszin]

I like it.

 

Dorn the crusader.

 

Robby the imperius.

 

they both start a secret war with each other through proxies.

 

And when its starting to boil up, another primarch arrives to calm the waters and mend the bridges of the brothers.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Well, dorn and robby have no real "established" past bar Dorn was the acting Imperator to the ultimate humam empire as opposed to robby is the "Emperor" to the 2nd (unofficial empire within an empire) Empire.

 

Robby and Dorn are probably the best examples of mirror primarchs. Just each reflecting the other at a different stage in their lives. Though id like to see dorn return my money is more on lion at this point.

[Boldthreat]

The way I see it is both were heads of interstellar empires before the coming of the Emperor. That resonates me because the other loyalist Primarchs very much seem like warlords more than heads of empires. They both as well assumed leadership roles in the Imperium. Dorn during the Heresy, Guilliman after until his enterment in stasis, and Dorn again at least till the 3rd Founding and maybe his disappearance/death.

 

I think the Lion and Russ coming back is a given. Assured even. And I’m not assuming it would be all hugs and handshakes between either of them or Guilliman. The Lion doesn’t trust anyone. And I would assume his primary focus would be the fallen army building across the great rift. I hope it’s a conflict that becomes a more overt thing, considering the lack of communication in the region and the more chaotic things are there. The Lion is admittedly a great commander. That’s clear. I think he would be considered the King beyond the Rift, but I think Dante and the Blood Angels would be doing the heavy lifting as far as keeping hope alive while the Lion fights a shadow war and keeps mostly to himself. Russ, man I just don’t know about Russ. I think he would focus more on his legion, his sons. Maybe I’m wrong on both of these counts.

 

The only one other that those two or Dorn I think has a chance would be the Khan. But he, in my mind, is another warlord type Primarch. But he also kept to himself and his sons mostly.

 

Am I wrong? Am I missing character points in these other primarchs. It’s not that I don’t like them. I like all of them somewhat. But Dorn and Guilliman come off as not just commanders, but political figures as well. Now in this age Warlords are needed for sure. I just feel most of the primarchs who could return would have personal quests or vendettas that would take precedence over the direction of the Imperium.