Warp Talons After New Releases

[Doom Herald]

At the start of 8th, Warp Talons weren't very good considering their cost, 1 wound, and the 9" charge needed to make good on their ability. One of these has finally been alleviated with the Warlord Trait for the Host Raptorial specialist detachment. This moves it to requiring a 7" charge (about 58% up from about 27%). This is definitely an improvement, but I haven't seen much about people using them more. Has anyone on here been using them since the new rules and if so, how effective have they been?

 

One unit paired with the Warlord seems like they might do well deepstriking targets. If you don't mind spending the CP, command re-roll or deepstriking a Khorne HQ with the Locus seems like you have pretty high odds of getting them into combat. Once you drop the first batch though, you can't drop the Warlord again, so you would have to drop further units around wherever you can get him. Would anyone who's used them recommend perhaps splitting them into two smaller units instead to have better odds of getting atleast some of them into combat?

 

I'm planning to test some out as Nurgle Night Lords with a Sorcerer. That way, if I fail the charge I can use Miasma of Pestilence and the Night Lord's strat to give them a -2 to being shot (and -1 in fights even if they make the charge). I also want to try using the Contorted Epitome to see if I can pull off the instant kill on flyers, but also to see if I can get any use out of Cacophonic Choir with the stacked Ld penalties.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

While they certainly are better, I'm still not convinced a 58% chance of a charge is worth the resources spent.  40K is still a shooting army's game, so melee units really need to bring something to the table to be worth.  I don't think warptalons, with only 2 attack per model, do enough for their point cost.  That said, I've never used them so they could be better than I fear.

[Panzer]

It's not just the 1 wound and 9" charge that made them meh, it's also the 1 attack in the profile for a dedicated melee unit ... and that didn't really change. There's only so much you can do with two S4 AP-2 D1 attacks on a 24p model that dies when the enemy looks into its general direction.

 

The specialist detachment is great if you want to bring Warp Talons no matter what, but unfortunately not worth the investment if you aren't hellbent on using them.

 

 

While they certainly are better, I'm still not convinced a 58% chance of a charge is worth the resources spent. 

It's 58% before re-rolls. With re-rolls it's a lot better. So in that regard things are fine at least.

[ChazSexington]

I used to run 5 along a Sorcerer with Warptime until the first nerf, which cut off their testicles. At the time, they struggled with their low number of attacks relative to cost. Now that they've come down quite a bit and got the Host Raptorial rules, I'm going to try ten next weekend. When I ran 5, they only seemed good for stopping Tau Overwatch silliness. With ten, Host Raptorial, and the changes to fly, I think it's a perfect counter for a Tau-heavy meta. 

 

Say no to overwatch! Say yes to shredding harder than an 80s rocker!

 

Edit - and they weren't weak at release. There was a few lists with squads of MoK Warp Talons that absolutely tore up tournaments until Deep Strike got nerfed.

[Prot]

Before the new Raptor detachment I tried these guys a lot and just stopped banging my head against the wall. But honestly if you've built your list a certain way, I truly believe these could be useful in competitive play. Too many armies sitting on parking lots now, and gobs of fire power, and if you are playing a VERY assault oriented Chaos army you are looking to delay enemy firepower, and reduce overwatch.

 

In some match ups there's no doubt the Talons are a throw away unit, but at least you can after stuff you don't want to risk overwatch on. 

 

Part of the problem is you can't build a list around them. You fit them into a list built to have an alpha strike of fast moving units (Disco's for example) combined with deep striking units (combined with a Teeth Jump Pack lord).

 

The thing I found is the games where you really need a Warp Talon element.... Astra, Tau.... they can literally be game changing. 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Before the new Raptor detachment I tried these guys a lot and just stopped banging my head against the wall. But honestly if you've built your list a certain way, I truly believe these could be useful in competitive play. Too many armies sitting on parking lots now, and gobs of fire power, and if you are playing a VERY assault oriented Chaos army you are looking to delay enemy firepower, and reduce overwatch.

 

In some match ups there's no doubt the Talons are a throw away unit, but at least you can after stuff you don't want to risk overwatch on. 

 

Part of the problem is you can't build a list around them. You fit them into a list built to have an alpha strike of fast moving units (Disco's for example) combined with deep striking units (combined with a Teeth Jump Pack lord).

 

The thing I found is the games where you really need a Warp Talon element.... Astra, Tau.... they can literally be game changing. 

I dont really see how warp talons can change a game better than oblits or bloodletters. 

[40kChrista]

If they could only take those fancy new backpack icons the CSM squads get...

 

I think you would see them more if your MoK Warp Talons could reroll their Charge range. 

[Prot]

 

Before the new Raptor detachment I tried these guys a lot and just stopped banging my head against the wall. But honestly if you've built your list a certain way, I truly believe these could be useful in competitive play. Too many armies sitting on parking lots now, and gobs of fire power, and if you are playing a VERY assault oriented Chaos army you are looking to delay enemy firepower, and reduce overwatch.

 

In some match ups there's no doubt the Talons are a throw away unit, but at least you can after stuff you don't want to risk overwatch on. 

 

Part of the problem is you can't build a list around them. You fit them into a list built to have an alpha strike of fast moving units (Disco's for example) combined with deep striking units (combined with a Teeth Jump Pack lord).

 

The thing I found is the games where you really need a Warp Talon element.... Astra, Tau.... they can literally be game changing. 

I dont really see how warp talons can change a game better than oblits or bloodletters. 

 

Well I play a lot of competitive games. A lot of those are (unfortunately!) against Tau.

 

In games of those types, where there is a horrendous amount of overwatch it can completely shut down that mechanism of the army. This also goes for the gluttony of Astra Parking Lot I'm seeing come back here (Just won a local GT). 

 

I use Oblits a ton (I've started moving away from them) and Bloodletters I probably used more previous to the new codex, and they've got different uses. But if someone is asking me where Warp Talons come in, you can make a Raptor detachment and in today's meta at least, there's a good chance you will get the combo off. 

[Panzer]

As long as the T'au Sept castle is strong, yeah Warp Talons will do nicely against T'au. If anything happens that T'au start playing different lists then their advantage over Bloodletter bombs and such will become a lot smaller. Luckily though (or unlucky depending on the perspective) most other lists T'au players can play aren't that competetive so it's rather easy to adjust your list for that exact match up.

However the problem is usually twofold in that you 1. have to survive the a turn and potentially a second turn of T'au shooting depending on who got the first turn before you can bring the Warp Talons in and 2. you need something to follow up on the Warp Talons charge to seal the deal (which becomes worse than it already is because of point 1).

 

I don't see Warp Talons work that well against AM though. They have super cheap screens they can use to surround their parking lot so you are going to need a lot anti-chaff shooting turn 1 to get rid of it to make them work.

[Prot]

It depends on the build. I just had a tournie game where an Astra player used dual flame chimeras to dissuade assault. I found it to be one of those situations (admittedly situational) where I wish I had Warp Talons.

[Panzer]

Fair enough.

[Trevak Dal]

I think if they were more possessed statted (s5, or 2 wounds with at least three attacks after accounting for +1 from the claws) and they would be more worth it. As it is they are kinda bully units, kinda flying, faster assault terminators.

[Doom Herald]

It's interesting to think about the issues with point balancing they put on display. Stat-wise, they are better Raptors, with a lower point cost, but having to take 2 lightning claws on everyone seemingly makes them less worth their points still.

[ChazSexington]

 

Before the new Raptor detachment I tried these guys a lot and just stopped banging my head against the wall. But honestly if you've built your list a certain way, I truly believe these could be useful in competitive play. Too many armies sitting on parking lots now, and gobs of fire power, and if you are playing a VERY assault oriented Chaos army you are looking to delay enemy firepower, and reduce overwatch.

 

In some match ups there's no doubt the Talons are a throw away unit, but at least you can after stuff you don't want to risk overwatch on. 

 

Part of the problem is you can't build a list around them. You fit them into a list built to have an alpha strike of fast moving units (Disco's for example) combined with deep striking units (combined with a Teeth Jump Pack lord).

 

The thing I found is the games where you really need a Warp Talon element.... Astra, Tau.... they can literally be game changing. 

I dont really see how warp talons can change a game better than oblits or bloodletters. 

 

 

Because they deny Overwatch. Tau go bye-bye. A Bloodletter bomb charging Tau will likely get thoroughly shredded.

[techsoldaten]

 

I dont really see how warp talons can change a game better than oblits or bloodletters. 

 

 

Because they deny Overwatch. Tau go bye-bye. A Bloodletter bomb charging Tau will likely get thoroughly shredded.

 

 

It's debatable.

 

The fact Warp Talons are immune to overwatch is meaningful in a handful of cases. Charging a single unit of Fire Warriors with a min sized unit of Warp Talons, for instance, just shuts down that single unit. The rest of your army is still exposed.

 

If you want to shut down Overwatch with Bloodletters, you just charge something near a big blob and consolidate into combat with everything around it. Pick the weakest unit, the one you know is going to die, and go to town. 30 Bloodletters with banners and instruments costs about the same as 10 Warp Talons but has a much bigger footprint for tying up your opponent. Even if you lose 10 Bloodletters to Overwatch, you are still going to have a ton of offensive output.

 

The two situations where Warp Talons seem to consistently perform better is against flamers / auto-hit weapons and against targets on top of buildings, where there's not enough room to land a big unit of Bloodletters. If you're playing in a tournament, read the missions and learn what you can about the terrain. There are situations where they can shine. If it's a friendly game, just consider what your opponent would usually bring. If there's not a lot of auto-hitting weapons, you are probably better off with Bloodletters.

 

I play 2 30-man Bloodletter units who do very well against Tau. There's games where they tie up part of a gunline, there's games where they chew through my opponent all game. Not sure Warp Talons are capable of those kinds of outcomes.

[ChazSexington]

 

 

I dont really see how warp talons can change a game better than oblits or bloodletters. 

 

 

Because they deny Overwatch. Tau go bye-bye. A Bloodletter bomb charging Tau will likely get thoroughly shredded.

 

 

It's debatable.

 

The fact Warp Talons are immune to overwatch is meaningful in a handful of cases. Charging a single unit of Fire Warriors with a min sized unit of Warp Talons, for instance, just shuts down that single unit. The rest of your army is still exposed.

 

If you want to shut down Overwatch with Bloodletters, you just charge something near a big blob and consolidate into combat with everything around it. Pick the weakest unit, the one you know is going to die, and go to town. 30 Bloodletters with banners and instruments costs about the same as 10 Warp Talons but has a much bigger footprint for tying up your opponent. Even if you lose 10 Bloodletters to Overwatch, you are still going to have a ton of offensive output.

 

The two situations where Warp Talons seem to consistently perform better is against flamers / auto-hit weapons and against targets on top of buildings, where there's not enough room to land a big unit of Bloodletters. If you're playing in a tournament, read the missions and learn what you can about the terrain. There are situations where they can shine. If it's a friendly game, just consider what your opponent would usually bring. If there's not a lot of auto-hitting weapons, you are probably better off with Bloodletters.

 

I play 2 30-man Bloodletter units who do very well against Tau. There's games where they tie up part of a gunline, there's games where they chew through my opponent all game. Not sure Warp Talons are capable of those kinds of outcomes.

 

 

I don't think you'd ever tag just one unit with Warp Talons. You declare a charge on literally everything within 12" and off you go. With 10, you should easily be able to string them out across several units.

 

I think you'd be better off with Warp Talons in a few cases - such as against Tau. Their aforementioned ability to shut down Overwatch and Fly (so they can jump over models in the Assault Phase) gives them an easier time of tagging several units. What I want to try is them next to a Greater Possessed and a Contorted Epitome/Fiends of Slaanesh, and maybe a Herald. 

 

There's no difference between units with Fly and without in terms of Assaulting as of the last FAQ, IIRC, though please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I'm not saying Bloodletters are bad at all. I'm just saying with the new Host Raptorial and changes to Fly, I think Warp Talons got a lot better. Or, should I say, they're not unusable anymore and they are better against Tau.  

[Captain Incompetence]

I find them to be quite expensive for what they do on their own. 2 attacks with 1 damage isn't that great and they still drop like flies despite having a 5++. However, I did have some fun by buffing them through Nurgle Daemons. A poxbringer casting Virulent Blessings on them and then standing within 6" for Locus of Virulence is insane. Add VotLW on them and suddenly they're wounding a lot of units on 2+, causing 2 damage on any roll of 4+ and 3 damage on a roll of 5+. Needless to say it catches people off guard and they truly do rip through most things you throw them at. The Downside ofcourse is that you're still relying on getting the charge off and it does start to become rather costly both CP and pointswise. I would advice people to give it a try though, even if just to see your opponent's face when you get the combo off and shred an expensive unit or model with them.

[Doom Herald]

I find them to be quite expensive for what they do on their own. 2 attacks with 1 damage isn't that great and they still drop like flies despite having a 5++. However, I did have some fun by buffing them through Nurgle Daemons. A poxbringer casting Virulent Blessings on them and then standing within 6" for Locus of Virulence is insane. Add VotLW on them and suddenly they're wounding a lot of units on 2+, causing 2 damage on any roll of 4+ and 3 damage on a roll of 5+. Needless to say it catches people off guard and they truly do rip through most things you throw them at. The Downside ofcourse is that you're still relying on getting the charge off and it does start to become rather costly both CP and pointswise. I would advice people to give it a try though, even if just to see your opponent's face when you get the combo off and shred an expensive unit or model with them.

I might give full on Nurgle Daemonkin a shot with that, although I think I'll try a Daemons NURGLE Prince with the Virulent Blessing and Locus with a CSM NURGLE Prince with Flames of Spite and Miasma with them. As NIGHT LORDS you could use Miasma with Midnight Clad for -2 to be hit on them and throw those bonuses to wound on the DP with Flames of Spite too.

 

Given that the +2 to wound from the Daemons Nurgle Prince alone means Warp Talons can wound ANYTHING they hit with a natural wound roll of 4+ for 2 damage and 5+ for 3 and they re-roll failed wounds, dont think the +1 strength is much needed. Plus the re-rolls from the Prince will help make hits land and you can give him wings so he can keep up with Talons after the first attack. VotLW strat will just help out as needed. Use on the Talons for targets without great invulnerables (2 damage on 3+ rolls & 3 damage on 4+) and on the Spite Prince for the ones with good invulnerables to land Mortal Wounds on 3+ wound rolls.

 

I might have to look back into what synergies these guys get as Daemons now that the charge range has been improved, though I don't think much will be better than the benefits of 1 Nurgle HQ.

 

Edit: I don't know why, but I thought Locus of Virulence gave a +1 to wound, but it does not. This makes things not quite as good, but still pretty good.