How far does counts-as go, in your opinion?

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

How far can counts-as go on models? Are you more likely to allow counts-as on something well-modeled, or does it just come down to base size? Would you allow, say, one pattern of Cawl bolt rifle as another, or a big forge world assault cannon as an autocannon?

[Chaplain Killmer]

As long as I get told whats the model is counts-as i am very ok with almost anything that is used. I just don't like midgame surprises :)

[Panzer]

Anything goes as long as it's not confusing and fits thematically bascially. If you have trouble explaining things or people start raising eyebrows you know you've gone too far.

[ImperialTuba]

I played a game in which a Tyranid player used bases without any models attached to them to represent his Rippers. I didn't mind, but it did result in both of us forgetting they were even on the table from time to time. 

[DadJokes]

As long as the base size is representative, and I can tell what the model is, I'm good. Parsable information is important for any game, but especially one like 40k. You have to be able to identify threats at a glance. So as long as it's differentiable, I don't mind. Good modelling is always a plus, though.

[Slasher956]

Another big thing with counts as ... dont you the same model /weapon to represent multiple things...

 

ie if this flamer is a melta gun then ALL flamers need to be melta guns, and not a mix of flamers & meltas.... 

 

Apart from that... is the base size 'right' ..either the current or previous edition size (ie for a old style space marine in power armour a 25 or 32mm base is fine.. but not a 40mm)  & have you expalained all the counts as before you even start deploying!

 

With those 3 rules you should be ok

[Halandaar]

As long as I'm told what it's representing beforehand and it's not confusing, I'm okay with pretty much anything (I'm not even really that bothered about base size to be honest, as long as it's not ridiculous; some things just look better on bigger bases)

 

But a really important thing is consistency. If you're saying "this guy with a Grenade Launcher actually has a Flamer", then all the Grenade Launcher guys have to actually have Flamers.

Edited June 28, 2019 by Halandaar

[Slasher956]

As long as I'm told what it's representing beforehand and it's not confusing, I'm okay with pretty much anything (I'm not even really that bothered about base size to be honest, as long as it's not ridiculous; some things just look better on bigger bases)

 

But a really important thing is consistency. If you're saying "this guy with a Grenade Launcher actually has a Flamer", then all the Grenade Launcher guys have to actually have Flamers.

 

Only reason why I mention base size is because of rules interaction...

[Marshal Rohr]

As long as I'm told what it's representing beforehand and it's not confusing, I'm okay with pretty much anything (I'm not even really that bothered about base size to be honest, as long as it's not ridiculous; some things just look better on bigger bases)

 

But a really important thing is consistency. If you're saying "this guy with a Grenade Launcher actually has a Flamer", then all the Grenade Launcher guys have to actually have Flamers.

 

Pretty much this is the rule to go by for games to be fun. 

[Bryan Blaire]

 

As long as I'm told what it's representing beforehand and it's not confusing, I'm okay with pretty much anything (I'm not even really that bothered about base size to be honest, as long as it's not ridiculous; some things just look better on bigger bases)

 

But a really important thing is consistency. If you're saying "this guy with a Grenade Launcher actually has a Flamer", then all the Grenade Launcher guys have to actually have Flamers.

 

 

Pretty much this is the rule to go by for games to be fun.

Agreed!

[Frostglaive]

My own personal rules for count-as:

 

- Correct base size. No putting Terminators on 25mm or something similar. That being said, if you put something on a larger base (ex. a 32mm base model on a 40mm)... I mean, at that point you're kinda screwing yourself over, but go ahead if you really want to. Just making my charges easier to get is all you're doing.

- The model has to at least be passable (no saying that these Guardsmen are Space Marines or some craziness)

- Weapon count-as is fine (if you wanna say a Heavy Bolter is a Missile Launcher, I'm okay with that) so long as I'm told in advance

- Full-blown conversions/kitbashes, just tell me ahead of time what they are (ex. I'm converting/kitbashing 2 Kastelan Robots into Hellforged Contemptors) and there's no problem

- Everything needs to be discussed in advance prior to first Battle Round. If you start saying midway through the game that this model is actually something else and you didn't say anything beforehand, we have a problem.

 

Just communicate with your friend/opponent prior to the game starting. Clear communications makes everything easier, especially when count-as models are involved.

[PeteySödes]

Anything confusing is generally no go for me. Level of effort for the rest though. If its a really great idea or awesome execution i'm down for whatever.

 

If its exploitative or uninspired I'll generally take a pass if I can.

[MARK0SIAN]

Pretty much what everyone else has already said. Correct base sizes are a definite but the model must also be pretty similar in other size areas like height etc. So definitely no empty bases.

 

So long as it’s not confusing and is consistent then I’m fine although I’d generally expect the proxy to be a model from the correct faction or at least kitbashed with parts from that faction. For example I wouldn’t like to play against Leman Russ tanks pretending to be space marine predators.

[Rik Lightstar]

For me there's a pretty easily defined difference between Counts-As and Proxying

 

• Counts As - is for example using appropriately painted Sanguinary Guard without Jump Packs to COUNT AS Space Marine Honour Guard.  You could also for example have all of your Salamander Descendent Assault Marines with Seraphon Obsidian Clubs that COUNT AS Chainswords. They're appropriate replacements that are consistent with the look and theme of your army and are easily identified.
• Proxying - for example is, I don't have a Baal Predator for my Blood Angels, so I'm going to use a Wave Serpent as one for this game. It's not an obvious or even appropriate replacement.

For most games I don't have a problem with either, although I wouldn't tend to Proxy anything myself.

 

Rik

[Gederas]

 

For me there's a pretty easily defined difference between Counts-As and Proxying

 

• Counts As - is for example using appropriately painted Sanguinary Guard without Jump Packs to COUNT AS Space Marine Honour Guard.  You could also for example have all of your Salamander Descendent Assault Marines with Seraphon Obsidian Clubs that COUNT AS Chainswords. They're appropriate replacements that are consistent with the look and theme of your army and are easily identified.
• Proxying - for example is, I don't have a Baal Predator for my Blood Angels, so I'm going to use a Wave Serpent as one for this game. It's not an obvious or even appropriate replacement.

For most games I don't have a problem with either, although I wouldn't tend to Proxy anything myself.

You say the Wave Serpent isn't an obvious or even appropriate replacement, but lets be honest. Using something that's impossible to mistake for another Predator as a Proxy for a Predator is actually quite smart to do :lol:

 

In regards to Counts-As.... Well, I'm a converter at heart, so I tend to have a lot of "counts-as" models in my forces. So I can't really comment on it too much :lol:

[Kinstryfe]

I'm a big converter at times and I've even done a whole counts-as army, so this is how I see it.

 

A proper counts-as requires an attempt at having the model still be wysiwyg. As example, I found myself with about 80 Chaos Marauders largely unbuilt for an old WHFB army but now I don't play AoS at all. I was experimenting and discovered that painting the body as armour instead of flesh it looks like passable MkI power armour (stylized, of course) with Space Marine arms if you leave off the pads. Some spare Pig Iron Productions heads I never used from an abandoned project and they look like a power armoured guard regiment. So I built then to the index rules for Sisters of Battle to be an "elite" guard regiment. But even though the bodies are different 1. They're on the proper 25mm bases, 2. Every weapon is wysiwyg. Bolters are Bolters and Meltas are Meltas. So if I tell my opponent "These are counts-as conversions for a Sisters of Battle army," every model is as obvious to what it is as it would be in a proper Sisters army. I also have on my backburner an Imperial Guard project where the troopers are Cadian bodies with Skitarii arms and heads, but it's entirely consistent. Special weapons are modeled as the exact weapon and lasguns are the long Skitarii gun. Again, it's entirely obvious to my opponent with almost no explanation that in a squad of 10 the fancy model is the Sergeant, the 60mm base with 2 guys and a big gun is the HWT, the plasmagun is a plasmagun, and the remaining dudes are lasgunners, as long as they know I'm playing guard and that it's an infantry squad. So again the basing is right and the weapons are essentially obvious, so I consider it to be alright for counts-as purposes. The same would go for using GSC neophytes as Guardsmen (right base and model), or the new Chaos Marine kit to make Chosen, or WHFB zombies as Poxwalkers. In all cases, after being told that X is actually Y, it becomes obvious what it is. If it's modeled well, I will 100% be ok with it as long as it's a reasonable substitution.

 

Proxying, in my opinion, is when things start to get murky as to what is what or you're doing an outright substitution. I often don't mind it (I've been in the hobby since I was a teen. I absolutely get that it's expensive and there are some valid reasons to proxy)l, but a proxy should be of comparable size to what you're proxying, on the same base, and not conflict with what else is in your army. So as was said above, one flamer as a melta is bad, all flamers at meltas should be ok. A rhino as a razorback or predator is ok, a rhino as a landraider is not.

[Stoic Raptor]

To me, the other player should be able to look at the model and say "OK, I can see it that way."  I'm not big on proxies except when a player is trying out an army or unit to see how they perform, and then only in "friendly" games - but "counts-as" works best when there can be no confusion that it might in fact be something else.

[Evil Eye]

As far as conversions/"thematic" counts-as go, if they've put effort into it and it's not just modelling for advantage/cheapness I'm cool with it 100%. Like, someone that's made a really nice converted set of Termite Assault Drills instead of the actual FW model is awesome, likewise someone that's made a Dark Mechanicum army that they run as CSM is totally OK. Someone that's made a massive blob of expanding foam and stuck a Carnifex head on it and said it's a Hierodule, no. And obviously if it's something like trying to proxy a Baneblade with something much smaller, definitely no.

For proxying/"This is actually that", it depends. If it's a case that they're wanting to test out a particular weapon/unit but don't have the models to hand then of course that's fine. If they're just taking the mick and consistently running large amounts of, say, Meganobz represented by Slugga Boyz, then that's not on. Of course it does depend to some degree on how conspicuous the proxy is- if someone's running Hormagaunt with Toxin Sacs but without them modeled on it's not a big deal (and vice versa) because honestly they're such tiny parts they're barely noticeable in a game anyway. A Wraithlord with a Bright Lance that's being counted as a Starcannon is a bit different, as it's a big noticeable weapon on a big unit (though again, if it's just someone testing it out rather than consistently running it as the "wrong" weapon that's fine). Also, it very much depends on what's being proxied as what; A Furioso Dreadnought being run as a Death Company Dreadnought is pretty reasonable and can even be handwaved with fluff, whilst a Canoptek Spyder being proxied as a Tomb Stalker is a no-no IMO due to the sheer difference in size between them.

[Trevak Dal]

In a non tournament setting? You can use labeled and like cutouts to count as say, space Marines or Orks or whatever to try them out, though I think that is more a proxy at that point.

 

With all the various "yo dawg this is power armored guys who are heavy weapons guys, this is power armored guys who are troops guys and these are power armored guys who are just like troops guys but found their missing attack they should all have and their options,"

 

Basic bitch power armor Marines can play power armor Marines. Chaos, loyalists and legion.

 

They may not be the official models, but if they got the stuff they are supposed to have or a close approximation such as a heavy Bolter with a multi barrel on it being the chadly chaos new hotness because you are a Tau player and got loads of burstcannon bits, frijoles frillo.

[Trevak Dal]

Regarding bases, I think some variance can be visually appealing.

 

So for my chaos army, my Champions are on the 32mms, and have very Codex Marine style differently painted helmets for my ease of picking them out with HQs being on 40mm.

 

I like the idea (if I used scouts) for them to be on 28s, with full Marines being on the 32s.

[Servant of Dante]

If we’re distinguishing between counts-as and proxy, I’m fine with any counts-as conversion at all, thought I’d prefer the base to not be smaller than the official model (unless it’s an older version of the official model that was packed on a smaller base in which case I figure it’s grandfathered in).

 

For proxies, I like seeing the actual models but for all I care you can use a 25 mm circle of paper with “Dire Avenger” written on it and that’d be fine. I just want proper base size for proxies, more or less.

[Brother Eleysium]

How far can counts-as go on models? Are you more likely to allow counts-as on something well-modeled, or does it just come down to base size? Would you allow, say, one pattern of Cawl bolt rifle as another, or a big forge world assault cannon as an autocannon?

My group and I really stay away from the competitive side of things, so there is some flexibility here.

 

My issue is people building their own models, and them being so difficult to correlate what each individual now unique model actually is in respect to the tabletop itself. I don't mind modding, but when your entire army is a bunch of scratch built models that I have a lot of trouble keeping up with what is what, it really starts to bother me. 

 

Another big peeve of mine is the ole "Hey, this Leman Russ counts as a Carnifex, and this Rhino is a Hive Tyrant." That's where I will draw line.

 

I had a guy bring dice and tell me the ones(which were the symbols as opposed to the sixes)were sixes and the sixes were ones, and I flat out told him no. He can use them normally or use other dice. I try to be flexible or agreeable, but some people are just ridiculously outlandish with this stuff. 

Edited July 1, 2019 by Brother Eleysium

[MegaVolt87]

It depends. Speaking for myself I always make the effort to be WYSIWYG for my miniatures, even when I am converting. I am the guy who has 6 of every special weapon for their three troop CSM squads so I never have to proxy and I magnetize my vehicles as well. I understand though its just not realistic to do things like this if people have multiple armies built to X points, one and done. Obviously they would want to proxy before expanding them etc. As long as you are not proxying so much, especially with infantry where we can't keep track reliably or remember, I don't mind. However, when you have 2-3+ different faction worth sets of models playing an unrelated army, usually obvious ebay fodder then that is where I have a problem. Its just low or no effort and just disrespectful to your opponent and other players who are making the effort. If you are going from ebay, at least buy the stuff for the faction you wanna play then proxy within that faction with the faction's models. Thats easier to deal with and ok. 

[Servant of Dante]

It depends. Speaking for myself I always make the effort to be WYSIWYG for my miniatures, even when I am converting. I am the guy who has 6 of every special weapon for their three troop CSM squads so I never have to proxy and I magnetize my vehicles as well. I understand though its just not realistic to do things like this if people have multiple armies built to X points, one and done. Obviously they would want to proxy before expanding them etc. As long as you are not proxying so much, especially with infantry where we can't keep track reliably or remember, I don't mind. However, when you have 2-3+ different faction worth sets of models playing an unrelated army, usually obvious ebay fodder then that is where I have a problem. Its just low or no effort and just disrespectful to your opponent and other players who are making the effort. If you are going from ebay, at least buy the stuff for the faction you wanna play then proxy within that faction with the faction's models. Thats easier to deal with and ok.

Having models from the proper faction doesn’t take effort, it takes money (since you don’t seem to be talking about painting here). If someone’s paying monofaction Blood Angels, I’d almost rather then proxy, say, bloodletters as Death Company than saying “these assault marines are Death Company”. You aren’t going to mistake bloodletters as actual BA models, where with the assault marines it’d be easier to forget they’re DC and not Assault Marines, in my opinion. Edited July 2, 2019 by Servant of Dante

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

 

It depends. Speaking for myself I always make the effort to be WYSIWYG for my miniatures, even when I am converting. I am the guy who has 6 of every special weapon for their three troop CSM squads so I never have to proxy and I magnetize my vehicles as well. I understand though its just not realistic to do things like this if people have multiple armies built to X points, one and done. Obviously they would want to proxy before expanding them etc. As long as you are not proxying so much, especially with infantry where we can't keep track reliably or remember, I don't mind. However, when you have 2-3+ different faction worth sets of models playing an unrelated army, usually obvious ebay fodder then that is where I have a problem. Its just low or no effort and just disrespectful to your opponent and other players who are making the effort. If you are going from ebay, at least buy the stuff for the faction you wanna play then proxy within that faction with the faction's models. Thats easier to deal with and ok.

Having models from the proper faction doesn’t take effort, it takes money (since you don’t seem to be talking about painting here). If someone’s paying monofaction Blood Angels, I’d almost rather then proxy, say, bloodletters as Death Company than saying “these assault marines are Death Company”. You aren’t going to mistake bloodletters as actual BA models, where with the assault marines it’d be easier to forget they’re DC and not Assault Marines, in my opinion.

 

But Death Company are literally baroque Assault Marines in model.