KiriothTV Close but a Miss on the “Real” Question

[Dracos]

Recent youtube video “Why Chaos Gets Everything The Imperium Gets.” was fun enough as far as he as usual gives a well reasoned set of thoughts for his views ....

 

.... but I felt it missed the “real”question ....

 

It’s not why does Chaos get everything the Imperium does? It’s fairly obvious a) from a narravtive standpoint and b) that they don’t. Yes they’re getting Knights and other dribbles but nothing like it was in 2nd edition. Not even the most staunch Loyalist would deny it’s an important aspect of the 40k universe that needs preserved as a relevant symbol of the struggle between the factions .... but it’s not the “real” question that needs to be asked.

 

The “real” question that needs to be asked is ....

 

Why does everything Chaos get from the Imperium need to have a rule bump that makes them better on the tabletop than their Loyalist counterpart? Why can’t they have the same unit but because it’s Chaos it doesn’t have the same support as the Imperium version does so it performs slightly worse? Never seen the script flipped that way and that is something that has always bugged me.

 

Disclaimer: since returning from the game after leaving at the beginning of 5th edition I haven’t deep dived into the Codexes like I had, but as an single example the Chaos Xiphon from FW has extra rules the Loyalist version does not.)

[PeteySödes]

I think Chaos is actually more separated now more than before in terms of parity. Knights are obviously the new hot thing but based on the preview they've got a cost too.

 

Back in the day chaos characters were mega scary but stuff like demon weapons hit you or your own guys. They were elevated beyond their loyal counterparts but there was a cost. Same with berserkers, they mulched stuff but they were unpredictable. As a loyal guy, I'm totally fine with this.

 

The Havok buff hurts a bit but its at least in theme.

[Gederas]

Disclaimer: since returning from the game after leaving at the beginning of 5th edition I haven’t deep dived into the Codexes like I had, but as an single example the Chaos Xiphon from FW has extra rules the Loyalist version does not.)

Uhhhh... Unless they added new ones in an FAQ (which they didn't), it doesn't. They both have the exact same abilities, and even CALLED the exact same things. Because I'm looking at both indexes and they're the exact same datasheet, just with a different name and keywords.

 

If you're thinking of the Hellforged Dreadnoughts, yes, those have more abilities, but has different stats than the loyalist ones.

[Closet Skeleton]

Devastators have signums and armourium cherubs, havocs aren't simply better and before they got their recent upgrade were downright worse.

[MARK0SIAN]

I know they don’t get all the stuff the imperium does but it definitely feels like they get all the COOL stuff the imperium does and then their own cool stuff on top of that.

 

As for rules bump, there definitely are examples of that. Havoks being T5 is the most recent but knights being able to dual wield weapons is one plus they’ve just got straight up better Terminators than any loyalist marine factions. Death to the false emperor is also a bonus ability that applies against well over half the armies out there yet the loyalists don’t even have a similar one that applies just against chaos.

[MARK0SIAN]

Devastators have signums and armourium cherubs, havocs aren't simply better and before they got their recent upgrade were downright worse.

It’s true that when the units are different both sides normally have some kind of bonus the mirror version doesn’t get. The problem is that if I was given the choice which bonus I would choose, 90% of the time I would go for the chaos one. Like in your example, I would take T5 for the unit over a signum and armourium cherub (which you have to buy) any day of the week.

[Closet Skeleton]

You're forced to buy the T5, its just very cheap at 1 point.

[MARK0SIAN]

You're forced to buy the T5, its just very cheap at 1 point.

This is what I mean, the single use armorium cherub is 5 points. That T5 perk is just way better than the loyalist Signum and armorium cherub. Like I said, I'm not saying Chaos get boosts and loyalists don't, its that it just seems to me the Chaos ones are usually better plus they get all the Imperium's coolest stuff and then their own cool stuff on top.

[Kite Senet]

In this thread, Loyalists slowly realize their own heretical sympathies.

 

I'm sure if you want cool chaos abilities on top of the cool tech your Imperium has scrounged from the dusts of history, Tzeentch will be more than happy to supply... (Just don't complain when you're hearing every lie uttered by every mouth in the universe.)

 

From a fluff perspective, it seems quite fitting that where CSM have something inherited from SM, then "cool tech + chaotic empowerment + 10 millenia of constant fighting experience" ought to be more potent than "cool tech + (maybe) a 5/10 'it was okay' book".

 

I think some of these complaints are a bit short-sighted, especially to suggest that Chaos marines have it better because they have a conditional ability versus the Imperium and the Imperium doesn't have one against Chaos...without noting the fact that the *parallel* general Imperial marine ability (And They Shall Know No Fear) isn't conditional on who you're fighting. The very existence of the DttFE rule suggests it's there to balance a matchup that would otherwise be in the favor of Imperial forces. (Plus some of the Heretic Astartes factions barely even gain any advantage from DttFE...it seems exceptionally irrelevant for my T-Sons at least.)

 

As for the Terminators, I don't see the major advantage, comparing CSM Terminators with Deathwing Terminators from Codex Dark Angels. Is having half the options, no additional special rules, and costing 3 points more before gear such an advantage? Perhaps this is an artifact of comparing Chaos Terminators with Dark Angels specifically, but that's the only "loyalist" faction I collect (nevermind the black power armor, and their unquestionably-loyal berobed allies) so that's what I have to draw my comparisons. Are the codex-compliant Terminators just that much worse? It certainly doesn't seem like Chaos Terminators have any advantage over Deathwing Terminators at least.

 

Also, I'd note that you can't necessarily just compare loyalists and traitors line-for-line where they overlap and determine which faction is better that way. A codex needs to be seen as a whole: you might prefer Chaos's bread and butter units, but that doesn't mean you'd want to commit to Chaos entirely and miss out on all the side dishes that the Imperium allows, particularly the entire Primaris line. CSM has to rely more on their bread and butter marines; it is entirely fitting and necessary that it be competent if the faction is to be played at all.

[Knight of the Raven]

I'm even less up to date than you are when it comes to codices, but wasn't one of the usual complaints from Chaos Space Marines players precisely that they always got hand-me-down, weaker versions of whichever gear they shared with the loyalists? I even distinctly remember people being disappointed with the lack of power of the machine spirit on Land Raiders, in addition to the 'lolrandumb' effect on upgrades like daemonic possession that just went and ate passengers at random.

My answer may be tinted by the fact that my favorite reply in all of The Bolter & Chainsword history is A D-B's "I'll show you. I'll show you all. Loyalists will tremble in abject terror, instead of shaking with laughter at how much I pay for wargear," I admit...

[Lord Marshal]

I sure know I'm seething over all those Chaos Primaris models GW are producing.

 

Damn Chaos whiners getting everything 1:1!

[Dracos]

 

Disclaimer: since returning from the game after leaving at the beginning of 5th edition I haven’t deep dived into the Codexes like I had, but as an single example the Chaos Xiphon from FW has extra rules the Loyalist version does not.)

Uhhhh... Unless they added new ones in an FAQ (which they didn't), it doesn't. They both have the exact same abilities, and even CALLED the exact same things. Because I'm looking at both indexes and they're the exact same datasheet, just with a different name and keywords.

 

If you're thinking of the Hellforged Dreadnoughts, yes, those have more abilities, but has different stats than the loyalist ones.

 

 

Preternatural Maneuverability is an extra ability Chaos Xiphon that allows them to pivot, move, and pivot again, which is Eldar nimbleness. Cost 20 points but super effective on standard 40k tables.

 

I know there are exceptions to every rule and thought in 40k, and while I pointed out the Xiphon it was meant as a glance at a generic unit that both sides have available. With respect, cherry picking from specific Chapters or Gods bogs the conversation down. Like I said I do NOT have a deep understanding of 8th ed Chaos, but it's fairly obvious from watching the competitive circuit that Chaos has any number of buffs that the Astartes can't compete with unless dipping into the Soup.

 

Not sure how bad Chaos really should want a Primaris unit, if they come with all the limitations/restrictions they deal with currently? They day will come though . . . . ;)

[Leif Bearclaw]

From a fluff perspective, it seems quite fitting that where CSM have something inherited from SM, then "cool tech + chaotic empowerment + 10 millenia of constant fighting experience" ought to be more potent than "cool tech + (maybe) a 5/10 'it was okay' book".

 

 

 

But that doesn't really work imo. The equation should be more like 'cool tech + warp empowerment - constant attrition and your gear getting broken - no reliable supply lines' should not be better than 'cool tech + mostly reliable logistic chain + mostly sane R&D process (because the Imperium does innovate and produce new stuff, just slowly)'.

 

Fighting for 10,000 years (assuming most Chaos Warbands have expereinced anything close to that thanks to warp shenanigans losing them time compared to real space) does not result in large volumes of well equipped extremely veteran troops. It results in lots of dead troops and broken gear, especially in an environment as brutal and cut throat as the EoT. Sure they'll be a handful of long term survivors, but they'll be the juiced up Lords by m41. There really shouldn't be entire companies of Istvaan veterans still running around (or if there are, it'll be because time shenanigans, so haven't been fighting for 10,000 years either).

 

The chaos-y warp infused shenanigans should be more of a side grade, from both a fluff and game balance perspective. 'Imperial +1' or 'Imperial, but spiky' are both boring and frustrating direction to take. Whereas things have been going better with a lot of recent releases, like the Greater Possessed, Lord Discordant, Venomcrawler and no Chaos Primaris, plus the DG and Sons getting their own dexes full of unique stuff.

 

 

As for the Terminators, I don't see the major advantage, comparing CSM Terminators with Deathwing Terminators from Codex Dark Angels. Is having half the options, no additional special rules, and costing 3 points more before gear such an advantage? Perhaps this is an artifact of comparing Chaos Terminators with Dark Angels specifically, but that's the only "loyalist" faction I collect (nevermind the black power armor, and their unquestionably-loyal berobed allies) so that's what I have to draw my comparisons. Are the codex-compliant Terminators just that much worse? It certainly doesn't seem like Chaos Terminators have any advantage over Deathwing Terminators at least.

 

Chaos Terminators don't have half the options though (Deathwing also get some DA specific special rules iirc, making them generally better than other loyalists). Sure, they don't get storm shields, thunder hammers and cyclones. But they can mix 'assault' and 'tactical' load outs in the same squad and have so many more combat options, thanks to being able to take stuff like single lightning claws, chainaxes and power weapons as well as the ability to take combis to boost firepower. Only the SWs with their equally modular Wolf Guard termies are in the same league really.

 

 

Also, I'd note that you can't necessarily just compare loyalists and traitors line-for-line where they overlap and determine which faction is better that way. A codex needs to be seen as a whole: you might prefer Chaos's bread and butter units, but that doesn't mean you'd want to commit to Chaos entirely and miss out on all the side dishes that the Imperium allows, particularly the entire Primaris line. CSM has to rely more on their bread and butter marines; it is entirely fitting and necessary that it be competent if the faction is to be played at all.

It goes beyond just CSM though. This thread seems to have been spawned by the upcoming Chaos Knights. Which certainly appears to be one of the worst 'imperial but spiky' chaos ports we've seen in recent years. Most of the units are the same (or better, if the 'Chaos Knight' keeps it's greater variety of weapon choice vs Imperial). Especially if the Rampager's gear if functionally identical to the Gallant, it's plausible of the only truly different units between the 2 Knight books will be Perceptor vs Desecrator. Even down to the fluff with an 'evil Imperial Knights' and 'evil Mechanicus Knights' split, it's just derivative and frustrating.

[RolandTHTG]

I'll be honest, I haven't replied because until this edition, it generally felt that where we had comparables, Chaos got the short stick. We just didn't have PoTMS for a couple editions, even on the Land Raider.

Even now I think it's only on stuff that got bumped in the codex V2 or FW that it got better. (in fact the prevalence of FW in CSM armies is another point of evidence towards the fact that most players aren't satisfied with the codex units)

I'm going to be generally ignoring special chapter/legion units, as those are well down the path of "chaos-y warp infused shenanigans" and focusing on regular units.

 

HQ:

Lords are comparable to captains, though not as survivable with out storm shields, but there's no way to get chapter master equivalent rerolls.

Lieutenants and their aura are better all-rounders than anything chaos can get, especially if you want to support a gun line. The only reroll wound aura, on the Exalted Champion, is only in combat, and is tied to a footslogging model with no invuln. I rarely get more than 1 turn's use out of it.

 

Vehicles:

Landraiders, other than FW we only get the generic one, no Crusader/Redeemer, no chaos variants.

No Razorbacks, no Land speeders, no hunter/stalker/whirlwind/Thunderfire/etc Anti-aircraft or indirect artillery other than FW versions.

Flyers, the only codex option is the Helldrake, mostly useful as a distraction carnifex this edition.

No land speeder or equivalent light/fast/shooty platform. (yes, it's not good in 8th, but it doesn't exist as a chaos option)

The only transport is the Rhino, or expensive FW options. No fast skimmer or flyer transports in the codex, despite CSM being a melee-centric army.

 

Units:

Chaos Terminators apparently pay 5 pts/model base over loyalist to unlock their options (more than wolf guard do, I believe), so it's not like the options are free, plus we still can't take storm shields.

Havoks, until the recent rework, were worse than loyalist as a heavy weapons platform. they had no plasmacannons, no cheribum option. They could previously take specials, but that actually duplicated the options of another unit (chosen) where that selection came down to minor points or Force org slot evaluations. Even the rework, while empowering them in several ways, also made them more vulnerable, as they can no longer take spare models, so must either sacrifice the champion or a heavy weapon with every wound taken.

CSM: while they can get bigger squad sizes, they never got more special/heavy slots than a tac squad and without the right babysitter they're a liability in 8th. One of their few historical distinctions, the ability to run bolter/bp/ccw, is no longer even an option in 8th for CSM, but space wolves still have it.

Assault troops: while raptors are similar to assault squads, Warp talons are somehow missing an attack compared to jumppack Vanguard vets, or if we look at chosen with the same number of attacks, they can't get jump packs.

 

Equipment:

CSM can only get vehicle mounted plasma cannon, and until the new Havoks never had access to any assault cannon equivalent on anything.

We also just finally got Thunder hammers, probably because they stripped most of our classic demon weapons out of the book.

 

As a special rule, DTTFE is useless against half the armies, and requires reaching combat against imperial units. ATSKNF, for all that it is a poor rule due to meta/rule interactions, at least can conceivably help you against every opponent. The CSM rule gives no aid to shooty units like havoks even against Imperium armies.

 

Most of Chaos's good units are those that get warp/god support in the form of marks or demonic possession.

If you try to make a recently turned renegade chapter with imperial unit equivalents, you WILL be worse off than the imperial counterpart. A few of your units will have more freedom to mix-and-match equipment, but many will find themselves missing previous options or support.

[Closet Skeleton]

CSM can only get vehicle mounted plasma cannon, and until the new Havoks never had access to any assault cannon equivalent on anything.

 

 

Reaper Autocannon was supposed to be the chaos assault cannon and kind of were in 3rd ed, but then 4th ed buffed the assault cannon and twin assault cannons ended up more common than regular ones so a twin autocannon became sort of lame non-equivalent.

[Moonreaper666]

I know they don’t get all the stuff the imperium does but it definitely feels like they get all the COOL stuff the imperium does and then their own cool stuff on top of that.

 

As for rules bump, there definitely are examples of that. Havoks being T5 is the most recent but knights being able to dual wield weapons is one plus they’ve just got straight up better Terminators than any loyalist marine factions. Death to the false emperor is also a bonus ability that applies against well over half the armies out there yet the loyalists don’t even have a similar one that applies just against chaos.

List of COOL things the Imperium has that Chaos lacks:

 

-Land Speeders (I wish Chaos had them in Dawn of War 1)

-Chaos version of Grey Knights and Grey Knight Terminators (A teleporting strike force great for assassinating the enemy leader. Something the enemies of Chaos yend to do to them)

-Deathstrike Missiles (Chaos doesn't have that many compared to the Imperium)

-Whirlwinds (Would have helped greatly in that ONE ORK MISSION during Dark Crusade!)

[Marshal Rohr]

There should really just be one index for human vehicles that runs the gamut from Stormbirds to Sentinels and any human faction can take any of them. Daemon Engines would remain chaos specific, but the rest should all be available to chaos.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I sure know I'm seething over all those Chaos Primaris models GW are producing.

 

I sense your sarcasm and raise you an 'It's only a matter of time...'

[MegaVolt87]

 

I sure know I'm seething over all those Chaos Primaris models GW are producing.

I sense your sarcasm and raise you an 'It's only a matter of time...'

 

 

Chaos already has primaris, we call them chosen. I wish we also had chosen terminators again, but with tartaros and cataphractii armor, better stats for more points. Dedicated primaris big style scaled chosen would be great. 

[Closet Skeleton]

 

 

I sure know I'm seething over all those Chaos Primaris models GW are producing.

I sense your sarcasm and raise you an 'It's only a matter of time...'

 

 

Chaos already has primaris, we call them chosen. I wish we also had chosen terminators again, but with tartaros and cataphractii armor, better stats for more points. Dedicated primaris big style scaled chosen would be great. 

 

 

Terminators are chosen, so I have no idea what you're talking about. The option to buy terminator armour as an upgrade from chosen was in the 3.5 codex where it was the only way to deploy squads of terminators, there's never been a differentiation between chosen and non-chosen terminators.

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

 

I sure know I'm seething over all those Chaos Primaris models GW are producing.

I sense your sarcasm and raise you an 'It's only a matter of time...'

 

 

Chaos already has primaris, we call them chosen. I wish we also had chosen terminators again, but with tartaros and cataphractii armor, better stats for more points. Dedicated primaris big style scaled chosen would be great. 

 

 

Terminators are chosen, so I have no idea what you're talking about. The option to buy terminator armour as an upgrade from chosen was in the 3.5 codex where it was the only way to deploy squads of terminators, there's never been a differentiation between chosen and non-chosen terminators.

 

 

Right, except now we have a seperate chaos terminator unit and chosen which are now separate things for a while now. Adding Chosen terminators with other armour options + better stats would fit very well into the game. 

[Lucerne]

OP is aware that loyalists get more of the Heresy-era toys like terminator variants as well as new nonsense upgrades than the traitors do, right?

[Dracos]

OP considers thinks if Heresy Terminators and Landspeeders are your examples of look but .... your making  my point for me. If either of these were any competitive value you'd have seen a Chaos version of them by now. Only half joking, personally I find most (not all) the ported 30k stuff just adds to the bloat of the Space Marine Codex.

 

Yes as I already have said there are example on a few units Chaos doesn't get an Imperium equivilant, but they aren't many and those that are, are meh in most cases. Compare that to the Chaos units Imperium doesn't have and it partially explains why Chaos is generally a more competitive army on the table top.

 

 Autocannons erase Primaris and ... yes Chaos Knights getting to double up Mortis style on the best weapons is irritating example of something denied the Imperium that makes no sense to me.

 

 

I am not a Chaos hater. If I had the skills, I'd be all over a Chaos Space Marine focused army. I love seeing the Blackstone models and happy at least some of the line is being refreshed. I do want to see Chaos played with a seperate style.  The only commonality I want to see is Infantry Space Marines, Guardsmen and a select few vehicles that have demonic qualities. Thats just personal preference. Different doesnt have to equate to better though and things like the Mortis Knights just seem like the same old (pre 5th edition) Chaos gets the better cool toys game design 

[Trevak Dal]

I kinda borrowed an idea (in writing) about a sort of "chaos Grey Knights" that were basically for-hire daemon wranglers, specially ordained from the Wordbearers called "Grey Wardens", though they have a more Exorcist bent since they allow possession and must force the daemon out. Sort of like Dark mirror Purifiers within the Word Bearers legion, these guys are sent in when some Daemons are being uppity and uncooperative.

 

They are antagonists who pursue my Possessed Sorcerer character Giselburtus as his possession is a result from the sorcerer throwing his crippled body into a soul forge from a helbrute chassis and emerging the other side reborn in flesh and sinew, warp and ceremite, two beings ceased to be and became one entity.

[Trevak Dal]

Devastators have signums and armourium cherubs, havocs aren't simply better and before they got their recent upgrade were downright worse.

I used my havocs as special weapon squads, but I kinda get gws desire to change that up. But it does put chosen in a weird role.

 

"Yo Dawg, we are the warbands veteran power armor guys, like company champions, we used to be like command squads but that changed...for reasons we can carry a 5 special weapons and everybody can have close combat weapons/power weapons if we want...but not thunderhammers."

 

We want you to make bad decisions like, buying Warp Talons or Terminators, but not bad decisions like thunderhammers on chosen squads. Because if you had 10 John Henry's come swinging out of a land raider, well that might just be too good.

 

I've stopped letting myself get upset about stuff like that and just go "well I guess GW is looking to save me money"