Angel_of_Blood Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Having just seen the Dramatis Personae for The Lost and the Damned, can't miss that Maximus Thane is down to appear again as Captain of the 22nd Company. I know he appeared in one of the other shorts, not that I've actually read it. But without going back to check again through the whole Beast series. I really can't remember ever getting the impression that he had been alive during the Heresy from reading them. Quite the opposite in fact. Again, haven't read again, so might be hazy, but I thought I remembered everyone, Astartes included, talking about the Heresy as if it was already some kind of myth, the Primarchs too. When Thane took up the colours of the Imperial Fists, there's no mention of him thinking "Hey, strange to be in these colours again eh?". It all just feels very out of place, wrong and shoehorned in, in some odd attempt to link the two series together in some way. Can anyone with better memory or dedication to skim through recall anything to clarify on this, or anyone else feel the same/different? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 His appearance as a young captain in Duty Waits was a memorable one but now that you mention it I'd never tied him to the Maximus Thane in the Beast series. He never felt like a heresy veteran who'd been around for... some 1500 years. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halandaar Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Yeah, I don't remember anything in the Beast series that suggested it wasn't going to be his first time in Yellow. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel_of_Blood Posted July 3, 2019 Author Share Posted July 3, 2019 That's exactly it. He's around Dantes age by the time of the Beast, but by all accounts still seems to be a fairly average captain really. Yeah he steps up to take his chapter masters place and then Koorlands, but more so because he had to step up, still never seemed exemplary by any means. Nor venerated in a way you'd expect for a Heresy veteran of the Siege of Terra itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of the Raven Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Not about Maximus Thane himself, but these ending words may shine some light into the issue.Praetorian of Dorn, epilogue, page 478: 'That is no longer my name,' he said.She frowned.'Do you know what an oath name is?' he asked as he stepped through the door. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel_of_Blood Posted July 3, 2019 Author Share Posted July 3, 2019 Hmm, hopefully this will be the case. Again not read the short involving him, so don't know if ti alludes to his future or anything there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonreaper666 Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 Having just seen the Dramatis Personae for The Lost and the Damned, can't miss that Maximus Thane is down to appear again as Captain of the 22nd Company. I know he appeared in one of the other shorts, not that I've actually read it. But without going back to check again through the whole Beast series. I really can't remember ever getting the impression that he had been alive during the Heresy from reading them. Quite the opposite in fact. Again, haven't read again, so might be hazy, but I thought I remembered everyone, Astartes included, talking about the Heresy as if it was already some kind of myth, the Primarchs too. When Thane took up the colours of the Imperial Fists, there's no mention of him thinking "Hey, strange to be in these colours again eh?". It all just feels very out of place, wrong and shoehorned in, in some odd attempt to link the two series together in some way. Can anyone with better memory or dedication to skim through recall anything to clarify on this, or anyone else feel the same/different? I doubt he is that old since he isn't badass enough to survive the same amount of danger as Sigismund Thane doesn't look like a guy who experienced hell like the Fists that survived both Terra and the Iron Cage slaughter Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpharius902 Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 Yeah, he regards a suit of Heresy-era gear to be "before his time", so it probably is just an oath-name Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedFurioso Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 He is the same person. Confirmed by Guy Haley himself. https://twitter.com/GuyHaley/status/1082963942148898816 Yes, he is.No, but there's no mystery. Many of the Imperial Fists in book one, The Beast Arises, are said to have fought at the siege. I figured the same probably was true of Thane. He'd be old by TBA, but so would the other Heresy veterans.Although it's a thousand years later, geneseed after the heresy was purer, and it's easy to imagine that Space Marines back then were longer lived. Note they are often referred to as 'functionally immortal' in the HH, but by the 41st millennium that's obviously no longer true. Keep in mind that another Heresy survivor, Fafnir Rann, created his Chapter in the 001.M32, one thousand years after the Heresy. Nothing strange Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halandaar Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 From Chapter Five of Predator, Prey Maximus Thane allowed his mind to drift back to Charnassica. To that first day, stepping off the Thunderhawk ramp and into the blood-slick earth of conquest. He remembered his young body, the power and possibilities it offered. He relived the rawness of his black carapace and the sting of his interface plugs. He ached with the presence of the Emperor in his hearts, the nearness of the enemy, the imminence of his first kill, the cold beauty of battle into which he had been dropped. He had been a full brother of the Fists Exemplar mere days, yet there he was – a living, breathing instrument of the Emperor’s will. So there you go, Maximus Thane was a new recruit into an already-formed successor chapter, so cannot possibly have also been an Imperial Fist at the Siege of Terra. Sloppy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel_of_Blood Posted July 4, 2019 Author Share Posted July 4, 2019 Sloppy indeed. Thanks for that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 I don't like the implication that Space Marines created earlier and stronger or purer than Space Marines created later. Or the idea that Maximus Thane is a well over 2000 plus year old line captain (an incredible feat given how dangerous the Astartes life-style is) in the Beast era, and that somehow isn't a big deal. Frankly, this is a rather dumb decision by Haley. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 i don’t think they should be stronger or more pure, but i don’t mind showing some genetic drift or degradation over 10k years, which we have with failed or lost organs and mutations and such. shorter life spans or faster organ failure would fit into that. they burn as bright but burn out quicker Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 Sloppy and stupid. Mistakes like this make the universe feel smaller. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 i’m not sure how it shrinks the universe, but it makes me think the editor could do with a coffee Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 Having the same characters show up everywhere indisputably shrinks the universe. Per WHC, there is only a single IF character worthy of inclusion in the dramatis personae; editing issues aside (something that shouldn't be a problem at this point when it comes to character selection), there was no reason to include him. The oath name would have been a perfect solution to this particular issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halandaar Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 I think it's probably a byproduct of the way the Beast Arises was written, which was essentially by committee with six different authors involved. In that situation, nobody really has "ownership" of the character and these details go unrecognised. That said, it's frustrating that nobody at all picked it up, especially when it took me all of five minutes skimming the eBook to find that quote about Thane's origins, and all I had to go on was a feeling that he'd never expressed any prior involvement with the Legion across the Beast Arises series. That an editor, test reader or whoever couldn't do the same is a bit much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 Having the same characters show up everywhere indisputably shrinks the universe. Per WHC, there is only a single IF character worthy of inclusion in the dramatis personae; editing issues aside (something that shouldn't be a problem at this point when it comes to character selection), there was no reason to include him. The oath name would have been a perfect solution to this particular issue.yeah, i remember adb floated that idea and it’s one i’d largely agree with but there are also some players who have found themselves in the thick of several events spanning years and it can be believable even if we want to declare it a rule; rules have exceptions the thing about the siege, is that a good chuck of marines turned up. so logically, any heresy veteran in the future from one of participant legions will most likely be able to say they were there. that’s not too crazy i’m willing to see if there’s a good reason haley decided to include thane in this way (rather than just playing favourites as people accuse mcneill of) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 I think it's probably a byproduct of the way the Beast Arises was written, which was essentially by committee with six different authors involved. In that situation, nobody really has "ownership" of the character and these details go unrecognised. That said, it's frustrating that nobody at all picked it up, especially when it took me all of five minutes skimming the eBook to find that quote about Thane's origins, and all I had to go on was a feeling that he'd never expressed any prior involvement with the Legion across the Beast Arises series. That an editor, test reader or whoever couldn't do the same is a bit much. that’s more my concern. but things slip through the cracks, due to workload, pressure and human error the production i’m currently on, a mistake missed several redrafts, script editors and supervisors, the continuity person and the props people until it was picked up by an actor at the last minute. it meant a whole bunch of stuff had to be reshot. so i do have some sympathy here an IP database for all creatives to reference wouldn’t be a bad idea, if they don’t already have that Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 Oof. That the oath name is such a good solution makes this more irritating. It's not the end of the world but it is sloppy editing, just as with the Jubal Khan origin in Solar War. I was under the impression that having a distinct siege series with the authors talking about how closely they have been collaborating would prevent this sort of thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 everything is canon! but...also....nothing is canon! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halandaar Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 And to think, if Guy had just made the 22nd Captain of the Fists on Terra Oriax Dantallion instead, we'd be saying what a cool little nod that was to the Beast Arises series. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341816 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 And to think, if Guy had just made the 22nd Captain of the Fists on Terra Oriax Dantallion instead, we'd be saying what a cool little nod that was to the Beast Arises series. Or if we instead saw more of Demetrius Katafalque defending the walls. His appearance in 'Hands of the Emperor' was good, wouldn't mind more of him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 Yes, Jubal Khan switching between Chogorian-passing Terran and straight-uo Chogorian is annoying as well Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341847 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted July 4, 2019 Share Posted July 4, 2019 Oof. That the oath name is such a good solution makes this more irritating. It's not the end of the world but it is sloppy editing, just as with the Jubal Khan origin in Solar War. I was under the impression that having a distinct siege series with the authors talking about how closely they have been collaborating would prevent this sort of thing. There's nothing in The Beast Arises that would make the Oath Name explanation null and void. Even were we to see the Second Founding and Thane stepping up to join the Fists Exemplar, there's still the Iron Cage and all that manner where he could drop dead and be replaced by TBA-Thane. Even if Haley intends them to be the very same character, there is no retroactively referencing the Siege in TBA at this point, and I highly doubt he'd flash forward during the Siege. So the way I see it, it's a non-issue until further notice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356948-maximus-thane-in-the-siege-of-terra-series/#findComment-5341975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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