Book of Salvation and Banners

[Berzul]

A quick question: Are the Book of Salvation and the Company/Chapter Ancient Banners stackable?

 

As in, should a model die within the auras of both, could you get them to pile in, attack, and also roll to get an extra attack?

[Angel of Solitude]

I think the relevant ruling here can be found in the most recent rule book FAQ:

 

Q: Lots of aura abilities say they grant an ability to nearby units that are within range of any such models. Are the bonuses cumulative (i.e. if I am within range of two models with identical aura abilities, is the bonus doubled)?

A: Unless stated otherwise, no. The bonus for such an ability applies once if any (i.e. one or more) of these models are within range.

 

I'd rule that the two auras are essentially the same, and thus do not stack.

[Berzul]

Do you think that this should apply to each specific effect separately? Or the aura effects as a whole?

 

What I mean is, one aura states that, if a model is killed, you can roll a die and on a 4+ it can shoot one of its weapons as if it was in the shooting phase, or make one attack as if in the fight phase. The other aura states that if a model is killed in the fight phase, before being removed, it can pile in and make one attack.

 

Now, as a specific effect, both abilities can grant an attack to a model before being removed, in the fight phase. But the auras are not the same, as they provide different effects and they operate under different circumstances.

 

One operates when a model is destroyed, whenever that may happen, the other when a model is killed in the fight phase

One operates by granting a 4+ chance to make a shooting or melee attack, the other grants a pile in move and an attack

 

It makes sense to me that identical auras don't stack. After all, having, say, three Company Ancients at the same time, should not grant the model three chances at the same attack. Having three Masters should not grant three rerrolls (despite the fact that there is already a rule that would negate this, as no die can be rolled again more than once). Having three Deathwing or Ravenwing Ancients should not grant +3A.

 

But, the Ancient's banner and the Book of Salvation are not worded the same, and although one possible outcome of their effects is equivalent to the other, their rules, conditions, and overall effects are not identical.

So, I'm not entirely convinced that the quoted Q&A answer applies.

 

But, then again, that is my interpretation. I am curious as to whether or not I am the only one that reads this, in such a way.

[Angel of Solitude]

I get where you are coming from on this, and I think you can argue it both ways. Rules as written, they are two different auras and so you should be able to apply both for the potential benefit of two additional attacks when a model is killed.

 

Rules as intended, which is where I would be, is that the two rules have the same effect, but the Book of Salvation is the more powerful so takes precedence.

 

As with all rule interpretations, I guess the best you can do is discuss with your opponent and agree how to play it.

[ValourousHeart]

Berzul,

 

I think the FAQ question needs to be updated with a new example that hits closer to what you are asking about.  The answer in the FAQ says "the bonus for such an ability" grammatically seems to be indicating that they were addressing the same effect from 2 models with the same rule.  But it isn't clear if they intended it to address different rules with the same effect.

 

So we should ask the FAQ team about this concrete example from Shadowspear and then follow up about the broader rule that follows with the other examples.

 

Shadowspear introduced Helix Adept as part of the Infiltrator squad.  The Helix Adept has a rule which has a similar in game effect to the apothecary's narthecium.  The Helix Adept is limited to once per turn and may only affect his own unit.  The Narthecium can affect a nearby unit, but prohibits a unit being affected by more than one Narthecium per turn.

 

Can the Apothecary's Narthecium and the Helix adept be used on the same Infiltrator squad during the same turn?  If yes I'm assuming the result would be to return a slain model to the squad with 1W and then heal that model to 2W.

 

There are other examples of this Helix Adept / Apothecary issue where different named rules apply similar effects including:

 

Interrogator Chaplain's Aura of Dread and Reiver Squad's Terror Troops.

Ezekiel's Book of Salvation and the Company Ancient (or Primaris Ancient) Astartes Banner.

And Sister of Battle Hospitaller and the Sister of Battle Act of Faith: Spirit of the Martyr.

 

How should these rules with similar effects interact?

 

As a side question about the Helix Adept, if you combat squad the Infiltrator Squad, can the Helix Adept heal the other combat squad?  I'm assuming no.

[BlackTriton]

As long as the names of the ability are different, they can stack.

 

For instance, the narcetium ability of an apothecary states that a unit might not be targeted by Narcetium more than once per turn.

But Infiltrators can still be targeted by the elix adept ability.

 

They have similar effect, but different name so its all good.

[shabbadoo]

The cited FAQ is about literally the same ability from two different models stacking, which they do not. *Different* abilities might stack, though it has already been ruled that other similar abilities/effects (like those that avoid wounds sustained) do NOT stack, so it could go either way. They probably won't end up stacking after a more specific FAQ deals with this and similar cases. I think their likely decision will be, "When two abilities/powers have a similar effect, only one of them applies (the player may choose)."  Keeps things simple, keeps things less stupid broken, and allows GW to properly rate effects in the first place. Stacking really needs to die a horribly brutal and ugly death.