Mushkilla Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 So having seen the point changes from the chaos knight codex (I imagine imperial knights will be getting similar changes). - Avenger went up by 10pts. - Rapid fire battle cannon went down by 10pts. - Thermal cannon went down by 21pts. I'm really happy with theses changes as it makes the avenger less of a no brainer. The thermal cannon is an absolute bargain now. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 Fair. Points are moving in somewhat the right directions at least. I personally still believe the Avenger should be the most expensive Knight weapon, the other two probably about the same with perhaps a small discount for the RFBC - just because it is somewhat less impactful. Of greater worry is the potential to have a 307 point, 24 wound, T9, 4++ unit - which the Codex does seem to indicate is possible... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5342812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushkilla Posted July 6, 2019 Author Share Posted July 6, 2019 Of greater worry is the potential to have a 307 point, 24 wound, T9, 4++ unit - which the Codex does seem to indicate is possible... I'm pretty sure it's just badly written. You still have to pay for the weapons. Basically, the despoiler chassis that can take a reaper and gauntlet is 305, then you have to buy the reaper and the gauntlet on top of that. So the gallant has gone up to 370pts. Basically 20pt tax on gallant chassis. If that makes sense? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5342845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 Of greater worry is the potential to have a 307 point, 24 wound, T9, 4++ unit - which the Codex does seem to indicate is possible... I'm pretty sure it's just badly written. You still have to pay for the weapons. Basically, the despoiler chassis that can take a reaper and gauntlet is 305, then you have to buy the reaper and the gauntlet on top of that. So the gallant has gone up to 370pts. Basically 20pt tax on gallant chassis. If that makes sense? Other people have argued the same thing, but it isn't completely clear. For instance there are points listed for a base Despoiler (285), and another point entry for Despoiler with chain sword and gauntlet (305). But you also have point's independently listed for the melee weapons: 30 & 35. Add them to the base Despoiler (and why can't you? Nothing indicates this is not permissible, in fact the datasheet states as much) and you get 350 - the same price as a Gallant. (And frankly, why *would* there be a cost difference for the same unit?) Some thing is not being written, or read correctly. Those points costs as printed make no sense, and are not at all cut and dry. This'll need a call out in the codex FAQ for people. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5342871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clingy Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 I really hope whatever happens imperial knights don’t get a price hike. I struggle to fit my toys in as it is No more nerfs! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5342913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraken Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 Of greater worry is the potential to have a 307 point, 24 wound, T9, 4++ unit - which the Codex does seem to indicate is possible... I'm pretty sure it's just badly written. You still have to pay for the weapons. Basically, the despoiler chassis that can take a reaper and gauntlet is 305, then you have to buy the reaper and the gauntlet on top of that. So the gallant has gone up to 370pts. Basically 20pt tax on gallant chassis. If that makes sense? Other people have argued the same thing, but it isn't completely clear. For instance there are points listed for a base Despoiler (285), and another point entry for Despoiler with chain sword and gauntlet (305). But you also have point's independently listed for the melee weapons: 30 & 35. Add them to the base Despoiler (and why can't you? Nothing indicates this is not permissible, in fact the datasheet states as much) and you get 350 - the same price as a Gallant. (And frankly, why *would* there be a cost difference for the same unit?) Some thing is not being written, or read correctly. Those points costs as printed make no sense, and are not at all cut and dry. This'll need a call out in the codex FAQ for people. I think the idea is that the Despoiler get some kind of bundle reduction when taking those weapons? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5343143 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushkilla Posted July 7, 2019 Author Share Posted July 7, 2019 From a balance perspective there's no way the gallant is getting cheaper. From a marketing perspective there no way they would make the gallant a no brainer choice over the rampager. Comments from reicius on frontline gaming suggest that the gallant will being going up in cost because it's too cost effective currently. So I'd be surprised if this isn't just bad wording that will get FAQed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5343174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 My experience with the avenger has been not so good. I keep trying to use it for anti knight duty. I know I'm useing wrong but can't help my self. I love the RF b cannon so getting a discount there is good but since I use both its a wash. Meh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5343591 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 My experience with the avenger has been not so good. I keep trying to use it for anti knight duty. I know I'm useing wrong but can't help my self. I love the RF b cannon so getting a discount there is good but since I use both its a wash. Meh. Currently the point changes are only for Renegade Knights, not Imperials. You should be unaffected, at least for now. Have you tried Avenger and Thermal as a combo? You have the two best performing weapons in their respective roles then - anti infantry, and anti armour/knight. The RFBC is outclassed by both realistically except for it's range. And if you're running a Crusader especially, utilising the RFBC's range advantage is quite situationally unusual, and means losing the ability to fire your other weapon, or at least being forced to split targets... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5343637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushkilla Posted July 8, 2019 Author Share Posted July 8, 2019 Update regarding th gallant point cost. Just watched Jeff Robinson's Codex review. He talked to Reece about the gallant varient and apparently "If you start with the melee version you have to start at 305 and then add the cost of the melee weapons." It is intended to be a nerf to the gallant. Why they didn't just give it a separate data sheet blows my mind. I mean it even has a different profile, just seems unnecessarily confusing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5343677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 Reece is a good guy and definitely a hard working, net benefit to the community. He's not GW though, and not above being incorrect either, so it'll still need an FAQ to get everyone on the same page. That said, I think this is the correct reading Mushy. Why that decision was made however, is somewhat more confusing to me. Gallants are good value units, but hardly a 'must take' that's setting the meta on fire. There are far, far worse offenders in either Knight codex. What this might do unfortunately, is mess with how many Knights we can field in different points brackets, which is a bit of a headache (albeit a minor one). Honestly in the case of the Chaos codex it likely would have been simpler to just have dumped the 'gallant' entirely because: Rampager. The extra rule partly justifying the point increase, but saving the 'Wut?' factor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5343708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushkilla Posted July 8, 2019 Author Share Posted July 8, 2019 Yeah, it needs a FAQ. The new knights are somewhat disappointing in terms of rules, the models are awesome though. On a more imperial knight related note (don't want this thread moved to the grave that is heretics and renegades subforum, we should really get our own knight subforum that is for both imperial/chaos knights as there's a lot of overlap between the two modelling/rules/tactics wise). Anyway back to my point Sky reaper protocols in the chaos knight codex is re-roll hits not re-roll misses like in the imperial knights codex making it actually useful against flyers (you always get to re-roll everything). Trail of destruction also go this buff... I think GW might be moving away from re-roll misses (it was counter intuitive with modifiers and in moving to re-roll hits minus to hit modifiers become a lot less game breaking). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5343712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 Yeah, it needs a FAQ. The new knights are somewhat disappointing in terms of rules, the models are awesome though. On a more imperial knight related note (don't want this thread moved to the grave that is heretics and renegades subforum, we should really get our own knight subforum that is for both imperial/chaos knights as there's a lot of overlap between the two modelling/rules/tactics wise). Anyway back to my point Sky reaper protocols in the chaos knight codex is re-roll hits not re-roll misses like in the imperial knights codex making it actually useful against flyers (you always get to re-roll everything). Trail of destruction also go this buff... I think GW might be moving away from re-roll misses (it was counter intuitive with modifiers and in moving to re-roll hits minus to hit modifiers become a lot less game breaking). Gawd, yeah. Don't get me started on the sub forum thing. I agree completely - we have sub forums for Renegades and Heretics (a one book wonder army that existed for part of a single edition and is now almost certainly the least played force in the game), and minority marine chapters that don't even have codexes, but Knights, an army that impacts everyone via the meta, possibly more than any other army, and might well now make more money for GW than any other 40K entity via sales and popularity (with the possible exception of marines - it's hard to know these days), shares a forum due to a callout in an early codex. You're right, it would make sense to have a Imperial and Chaos Knight combined area as there is so much overlap - and frankly many Knight players run their models as both anyway. Anyhow... Yes, I've noticed much the same. There definitely seems to be a move more toward 'general' re-rolls rather than re-rolls restricted by wording. It's a positive step for sure, but I'd like to see them go back and update the older units that aren't benefiting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5343720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushkilla Posted July 8, 2019 Author Share Posted July 8, 2019 You're right, it would make sense to have a Imperial and Chaos Knight combined area as there is so much overlap - and frankly many Knight players run their models as both anyway. I've resurfaced this here. Yeah I hope Imperial Knights get the wording in their stratagems updated to match the new wording too. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5343734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magos Takatus Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 Altough I agree that a new sub forum for Knights would be a good idea, I'll sure miss you guys if you migrate over there. The Adeptus Mechanicus forum has been a bit quiet of late. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5343748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 You're right, it would make sense to have a Imperial and Chaos Knight combined area as there is so much overlap - and frankly many Knight players run their models as both anyway. I've resurfaced this here. Yeah I hope Imperial Knights get the wording in their stratagems updated to match the new wording too. I've added what weight I'm able to the subject Mushy. I'm not confident though. There were 'plans' mentioned this time last year but nothing ever seemed to surface sadly. Still, fingers crossed! Discussion spread across two forums, one of which gets almost no traffic, isn't ideal for any of us :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5343749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 Altough I agree that a new sub forum for Knights would be a good idea, I'll sure miss you guys if you migrate over there. The Adeptus Mechanicus forum has been a bit quiet of late. Unfortunately I think this has been one of the blocking issues. The Knight traffic bolsters the Ad Mech forum, which would end up much quieter as a standalone. But it hurts Knight discussion when topics are shuffled because 'Chaos' is in the title, when these topics ARE relevant to the entire Knight community. It's a problem for sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5343753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 Last time I checked were not all non-heretics here, the more the merrier. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5343831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 My experience with the avenger has been not so good. I keep trying to use it for anti knight duty. I know I'm useing wrong but can't help my self. I love the RF b cannon so getting a discount there is good but since I use both its a wash. Meh. Currently the point changes are only for Renegade Knights, not Imperials. You should be unaffected, at least for now. Have you tried Avenger and Thermal as a combo? You have the two best performing weapons in their respective roles then - anti infantry, and anti armour/knight. The RFBC is outclassed by both realistically except for it's range. And if you're running a Crusader especially, utilising the RFBC's range advantage is quite situationally unusual, and means losing the ability to fire your other weapon, or at least being forced to split targets... I don't have a crusader. A Paladin and a Warden. I don't have a Errant but do have a Preceptor. Hoping the Las impulsor gets Knights dancing. I also support a knight forum. Only reason I look at the ad mech is knights and would love to get fallen knight INFO also. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5344084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
synthaside Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 i would miss my heretical Kitty too much :-( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5344095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 i would miss my heretical Kitty too much :-( http://i.imgur.com/ExGw4vv.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5344111 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneakybamsen Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 I don't see it as the Gallant becoming more expensive, actually. I don't see it becoming cheaper either. I think it sits where it should points wise. Poor wording in the codex without a trace of doubt. But Gallant variant of the despoiler at 352 with stubber as for imperials Rampager at 372 with stubber would make sense They have been ambigious in more than one instance. The preview article that told us about the household ambitions also described Iconoclast and Infernus as the chaos equivalents of questor mechanicus and questor imperialis, which had me worried they would be absolutely bonkers with effectively two household effects on every knight. Turns our they didn't do that, which is a good thing, but I had hoped they would do more than two households in rules terms for chaos knights. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5344280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushkilla Posted July 9, 2019 Author Share Posted July 9, 2019 Personally I do see the knight gallant going up in points. That or the rampager going down, right now theirs too much disparity between them. Honestly though, gallants are very strong (even more so on tables without much terrain) to obstruct their movement and limit what they can actually attack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5344333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
synthaside Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 i would miss my heretical Kitty too much :-( http://i.imgur.com/ExGw4vv.jpg We live to serve the Great Horned Cat ... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5344352 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 i would miss my heretical Kitty too much :-( http://i.imgur.com/ExGw4vv.jpg We live to serve the Great Horned Cat ... That's Brian. He runs the Hell Forge opposite mine. I wouldn't worry too much about serving him, he has some very strange ideas about salmon, scrap code, geller fields, and womens underwear... ...Plus those horns are stick on's. I don't know how I feel about Gallants these days. I certainly think there is a risk in them being too cheap. 24 wound, 4++/5++ T8/T9 units are dangerous to balance if under costed - that much is quite clear. I *feel* like I'd take a Rampager in my lists personally, but I'm not sure it's the competitive choice - just rule of cool (which tends to be how I operate really - probably why I've never won a tournament... well that and never attending one :P ) Where would you see the points at for these units Mushy? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356995-knight-weapon-point-changes/#findComment-5344390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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