Knight Weapon point changes

[synthaside]

I think the really strong thing about  the gallant is the Ws 2+ it makes a huge difference on a unit which is lumbering across the field taking fire  ... if you can degrade a normal knight to a 4+ to hit that's at least " something " ... the amount of times i'm reminded that the Gallant can get down to 1 wound and still hit on a 4 erks me greatly .

There are many armies  which cant screen  them out  and as much as my rangers enjoy being fed to gallants  while my dragoons get in a place for a counter charge a smart opponent has made my middle level  screen a priority for their avenger gatling .

 

I will admit things are definitely getting a little  hellish in my the forge world ... i blame that noise marine we
" found"  / couldnt resist then it was  a maulerfiend ... purely for study purposes you understand and that rather large spider riding chap ... with his chainglaive ...

Suddenly " heresy"

[Stray]

I think the really strong thing about  the gallant is the Ws 2+ it makes a huge difference on a unit which is lumbering across the field taking fire  ... if you can degrade a normal knight to a 4+ to hit that's at least " something " ... the amount of times i'm reminded that the Gallant can get down to 1 wound and still hit on a 4 erks me greatly .

 

 

A 4+, re-rolling all hits, if you play Trail of Destruction. That averages out to better than a base 3+ hit roll.

 

The degrading profile is so trivial to side step these days, I wonder if it doesn't need to be made more severe.

[Mushkilla]

Where would you see the points at for these units Mushy?

Probably around the 372 (which is what they seem to most likely end up at post FAQ). Not sure the rampager is worth the extra 15pts, but it would be worth 30-40pts more if the exploding 6s worked on feet attacks. But maybe that would be too strong. In some ways it would be nicer if our only double melee weapon knight choice was the rampager (it would simplify the despoiller datasheet too).

 

The thing with melee knights is that their effectiveness is dependent on two things, ability to clear screens and the amount of movement obstructing terrain on the board. Multilevel ruins can also cause issues. Making them effective for their cost but not game breaking. I don't mind a point increase as their biggest weakness, flyers blocking movement has been removed (flyers can still be used to prevent them from getting into base contact with units as you can't end your movement within 1" of the flyer).

 

But if your opponent doesn't have enough screens or the board has minimal terrain they quickly become completely broken.

 

Personally, I find them too mono dimentional. They are very predictable, you know they are going to run straight at you. Knights already suffer to some extent from being predictable due to low model count, so I tend to favour versatility when it comes to knights (sticking mainly to warden/crusader style loadouts and staying away from gallants and dominus).

 

All that being said in terms of efficiency and board control melee knights are cheap very resilient and nothing wants to end near it (especially if you give it a 6" heroic intervention).

[Stray]

How do we feel about a Rampager with 10 attacks, re-rolling any hit (so you can fish for those 6's somewhat), and that always fights first?

 

This seems trivially possible vs other knights/titanic's for 1CP.

 

You're likely to get two extra attacks in that situation from it's ability. 12 potential gauntlet strikes? Possibly from the Paragon gauntlet analog?

 

That's a potential 96 wounds!

[Clingy]

I love Gallants, but far too often competent opponents can kite him into uselessness or block him with multiple layers of screen.

 

It’s a shooty edition and it shows. Crusaders always do more work for me despite how boring I find them. Have swapped my SHD to Crusader+Crusader+Warden but haven’t play tested the warden out much.

[Mushkilla]

That's a possible 96 wounds!

Therein lies the problem it's just overkill. Iconoclast gallant without warlord trait has 6 attacks, 7 attacks with diabolus, re-roll hits against titanic and character with a dreadblade pact, no modifiers with re-roll hits and wounds with the relic gauntlet, or just re-roll hits with trail of destruction. Any one of those is enough to reliably kill another knight on the charge.

 

Even just 6 gauntlet attacks with re-roll hits (all our abilities are re-roll hits so don't care about modifiers like re-roll misses). 6 attacks, 5 hits, 4 wounds no saves flat 6 damage, dead knight.

 

Oh and death grip as insurance if things don't work out (which is extra strong because of all our re-roll hit options).

[Stray]

I love Gallants, but far too often opponents can kite him into uselessness or block him with multiple layers of screen.

 

It’s a shooty edition and it shows. Crusaders always do more work for me despite how boring I find them

 

Possibly we can make screen work for us, to a degree.

 

We have that tasty strat that grants permanent extra attacks based on models killed... If we can find a viable way to approach that, we might be able to make people wonder if screens are a good move. 

 

Make us stronger with your screens. You can't shoot me because I'm in melee, and you best kill me in one round with your counter charge, because I'll fight first in all subsequent turns...

 

We can heal up off of screen kills too, depending on traits taken.

[Stray]

 

That's a possible 96 wounds!

Therein lies the problem it's just overkill. Iconoclast gallant without warlord trait has 6 attacks, 7 attacks with diabolus, re-roll hits against titanic and character with a dreadblade pact, no modifiers with re-roll hits and wounds with the relic gauntlet, or just re-roll hits with trail of destruction. Any one of those is enough to reliably kill another knight on the charge.

 

Even just 6 gauntlet attacks with re-roll hits (all our abilities are re-roll hits so don't care about modifiers like re-roll misses). 6 attacks, 5 hits, 4 wounds no saves flat 6 damage, dead knight.

 

Oh and death grip as insurance if things don't work out (which is extra strong because of all our re-roll hit options).

 

 

Yes but is it as pretty? That Rampager is so damn spikey...

 

True enough Mushy. Still, deleting a Reaver Titan in one combat round is going on my bucket list...

 

I hadn't caught that our Gauntlet gives re-roll hits and wounds, PLUS grants permanent +1 Str, +1 attack if you kill a character... that thing is silly good.

[Mushkilla]

I hadn't caught that our Gauntlet gives re-roll hits and wounds, PLUS grants permanent +1 Str, +1 attack if you kill a character... that thing is silly good.

Don't forget no -1 to hit penalty either!

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

 

 

 

That's a possible 96 wounds!

Therein lies the problem it's just overkill. Iconoclast gallant without warlord trait has 6 attacks, 7 attacks with diabolus, re-roll hits against titanic and character with a dreadblade pact, no modifiers with re-roll hits and wounds with the relic gauntlet, or just re-roll hits with trail of destruction. Any one of those is enough to reliably kill another knight on the charge.

 

Even just 6 gauntlet attacks with re-roll hits (all our abilities are re-roll hits so don't care about modifiers like re-roll misses). 6 attacks, 5 hits, 4 wounds no saves flat 6 damage, dead knight.

 

Oh and death grip as insurance if things don't work out (which is extra strong because of all our re-roll hit options).

Yes but is it as pretty? That Rampager is so damn spikey...

 

True enough Mushy. Still, deleting a Reaver Titan in one combat round is going on my bucket list...

 

I hadn't caught that our Gauntlet gives re-roll hits and wounds, PLUS grants permanent +1 Str, +1 attack if you kill a character... that thing is silly good.

And now I'm ok with the 4++ cap.

 

It seems like a lot here go all in on melee or shooting with few hybrid builds. I'm really out of the meta it seems.

[Clingy]

@Stray I like the idea of levelling up and Pac-Manning your way up via the chaff. If you pull that off it’s brilliant. Certainly something to try

 

If the enemy isn’t prepared - a Gallant wrecks face and it’s glorious. I just get unlucky too often and my opponents have really good screen or are a good counter

[Mushkilla]

@Stray I like the idea of levelling up and Pac-Manning your way up via the chaff. If you pull that off it’s brilliant. Certainly something to try

 

If the enemy isn’t prepared - a Gallant wrecks face and it’s glorious. I just get unlucky too often and my opponents have really good screen or are a good counter

The thing is the iconoclast vow that gives you an extra attack for each 10 models killed works for all attacks. So you can have twin avengers chewing through screens charging up your number of attacks for the mid/late game. It's not like it's limited to melee only knights.

[Mushkilla]

Just thought I'd mention some more changes in the Chaos Knight codex that might end up making it to the Imperial Knight codex.

 

Rotate Ion shield has been changed to only improve invulnerable saves against ranged attacks (so no 4++ in melee with the unpronounceable Dreadblade relic). This would also affect Forgeworld Knights that get ion shield saves in close combat.

[Stray]

Just thought I'd mention some more changes in the Chaos Knight codex that might end up making it to the Imperial Knight codex.

 

Rotate Ion shield has been changed to only improve invulnerable saves against ranged attacks (so no 4++ in melee with the unpronounceable Dreadblade relic). This would also affect Forgeworld Knights that get ion shield saves in close combat.

 

That's an interesting move! I think I kinda approve given melee vulnerability is supposed to be weakness of ours. Now it can't be side stepped so easily.

 

Hearty congratulations to the Knight Lancer also, who has just effectively become the hardest to kill Knight on the field.

[Mushkilla]

That's an interesting move! I think I kinda approve given melee vulnerability is supposed to be weakness of ours. Now it can't be side stepped so easily.

 

I Agree. It's the same reasons I like that Chaos Knights don't have an "ignore damage profile" stratagem. Stratagems/Relic/etc that completely mitigate your armies weaknesses make your army a lot less enjoyable/immersive to play. Interesting weaknesses are as important as interesting strengths in my book.

 

Part of the appeal of Knights is the conflicting duality of their strength and weaknesses:

 

-Are massive bullies in melee but struggle against specialised melee unit.

-Are devastating if they get the charge, but vulnerable to being charged (smash captains).

-Are fast but get slowed massively by having to manoeuvre around terrain.

-Have height and a great vantage point  for line of sight but are constantly exposed.

-Are resilient but degrade as they take damage (losing speed is the big one here).

​-Have fantastic fire power but struggle with sequencing/fighting MSU/overkill due to low model count.

-Can take objectives but struggle to hold them.

-They can easilly concentrate force but are easy to play hide and seek around terrain with due to low model count.

 

etc...